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George Orwell's 1984: Rewriting history?

Started by Renate, November 01, 2008, 07:46:35 AM

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Renate

Well, I've already got in trouble once with this subject.
It's just a philosophical question, just among us.
Politically, I support anything that will make life easier for us.

The question came up about altering birth certificates.
One could maintain that a birth certificate is a record of a historical fact and should represent what actually happened.
Others could counter that an actual mistake in gender identification was made at that point in time and should be fixed.
(Me, personally, I think that at my birth it was not unreasonable to write "Boy" down in the birth certificate.)

I certainly believe that all current forms of ID, passport, driver's license, credit cards, library cards, etc.
should be able to be easily and quickly altered to reflect a person's gender and name.
I think that requiring SRS is a huge obstacle to many people and causes discrepancies
when one agency will accept a doctor's letter and another only a surgeon's SRS letter.
One of the aspects that makes birth certificates so touchy, is that although they are not
commonly used as day to day identification, they are used as proof for altering practical ID's.

My question is, how much do we want to alter historical records?
Should it be possible to alter marriage certificates? Birth certificates of our former children?
I don't really know, that's why I'm asking.

For me, I'll be happy when all my current ID's are all in complete agreement.
I may change my birth certificate, I may not.
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goingdown

We should understand that no birtcertificate change = no change of legal gender. So simply.
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Renate

One of the problems with gender and name on various things is that the
laws and regulations are all mixed up and different in every jurisdiction.

In most of the US, I believe that with a sugeon's SRS letter and a court-ordered
name change you can get every single bit of current ID altered correctly.

For places where this is not the case, maybe we should be fighting the requirement
that a very old piece of paper determines what gender one legally is in the present day.
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goingdown

It is too utopist. I asked what in one state that gives a birthcertificate want to see to believe that you are member of your target sex. The answer was simply: In all purposes you would be member of your birthsex until new birthcertificate tells other. And it does not mean only marriage that needs a new birthcertificate in all states.
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Renate

Ah, Ok. Marriage is a good point. I'm not sure of that one.
When I got married I never used my birth certificate.
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Sephirah

I don't know, I tend to adopt the philosophy that my birth certificate showing 'male' isn't an accurate reflection of who I am now, and have always been, since I am sure I was actually born female, but with a pretty big birth defect, namely being male-bodied. So, in my opinion, it doesn't represent what actually happened anyway.

And I think that my external appearance is of less importance, or rather is not as significant to who I am, than my heart, mind and soul.

So when my exterior appearance matches my interior... everything else, then yes, I do think it's right to change my birth certificate to show what it should have shown from the start. :)
Natura nihil frustra facit.

"You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection." ~ Buddha.

If you're dealing with self esteem issues, maybe click here. There may be something you find useful. :)
Above all... remember: you are beautiful, you are valuable, and you have a shining spark of magnificence within you. Don't let anyone take that from you. Embrace who you are. <3
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Kate

Quote from: Renate on November 01, 2008, 07:46:35 AM
I think that requiring SRS is a huge obstacle to many people and causes discrepancies
when one agency will accept a doctor's letter and another only a surgeon's SRS letter.
One of the aspects that makes birth certificates so touchy, is that although they are not
commonly used as day to day identification, they are used as proof for altering practical ID's.

And that's just it. Birth Certificates aren't really used to find out one's sex at birth, they're generally used to determine current sex - since it's assumed it would never change. I don't mind if the government keeps my original birth sex on record, as they might need to know that. But an employer (etc.) isn't looking to see how I was born, just how I AM, so I don't think anyone else needs to know.

But I know, I kinda have an ethics problem with it myself. I'm glad I could change it, and yet it seems wrong to claim I was born female. I like that I'm able to erase most of my history, and yet... why do we have to? Is it because we're ashamed of being TS? I love the congruence, and yet I have to wonder why we need it so badly.

It reminds me of how I'm always saying that the people in my life don't WANT to know I'm TS. THEY change the subject when it comes up. THEY want to believe I've always been female. So I wonder if letting us change our BCs reflects that attitude too - that it's just easier for everyone if we pretend our current reality has Always Been, that sex changes just don't happen... once they have, lol.

Kate
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goingdown

So you want be male for all legal purposes after SRS? Do you also support so called ''Annwyn'' prison policy that comes from it?
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Rachael

Tbh... if you WERE male when born... then you shouldnt be transitioning no? Afterall, if transition is correcting a mistake, there is no edditing of history occuring? just fixing a typo.... I cant see a problem in it personally. But i guess for people who live more of thier life before transitioning, it may with regards to college transcripts and highschool.... Who i was then wont change. but I was never a male, so that record is really not requiring changing, just correcting.... does that make sense?
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Kate

Quote from: goingdown on November 01, 2008, 11:20:44 AM
So you want be male for all legal purposes after SRS? Do you also support so called ''Annwyn'' prison policy that comes from it?

Huh? I'm not sure if this was addressed to me or not, but...

No, my current sex is female (after SRS), and should be recorded on all my documents as such. What I said was that I may not mind if the government - and only the government - knew that I was *originally* born male somehow, as that was the factual event. But no one else needs to know that, they just need to know what I am NOW. If an employer (etc.) wanted to see my birth certificate, they should *only* see FEMALE on it.

Kate
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goingdown

So you accept being sent to male prison if you break the law after SRS, Kate?
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Kate

Quote from: goingdown on November 01, 2008, 11:48:43 AM
So you accept being sent to male prison if you break the law after SRS, Kate?

Hmmm. We seem to be misunderstanding one another.

No. I am female now, post-SRS. Hence, I go to female prison. I am subject to all the rights and privileges of any other female. Having the government know that I was BORN male doesn't mean that I AM male. I said my birth certificate should say female. All my documents should say female. In all and every possible way I am to be considered and treated as a normal female now.

Kate
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goingdown

Sorry, I understand your point. I just wanted to say that person birthcertificate is very much same than legal sex. For younger not changing it would mean no marriage or possibility for family.   
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Rachael

depends, if you didnt change it theres always a 'civil union' but it all seems a bit gay.... then agian... a translesbian that didnt change it COULD marry.... hinky stuff...
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goingdown

I live in the country where gays and lesbians have only modest civil unions but a pre-op transwoman can marry a man after changing her legal sex that does not need SRS . What does that sound?
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Rachael

You are american yes?

Im just wondering... because in your option 8 topic, you actually AGREEED That gays and lesbians should only have civil unions, as 'marriage is between a man and a woman.' Im confused honey. You're view seems to shift with the wind...
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goingdown

I am from Europe Rachael. I just follow the world events. And yes I am not a supporter for propositon 8. In case I would live in California election day vote would be very likely No. There were just discussion about priorities and western culture tradition.
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Rachael

but you said you WOULD vote for prop8 in your other topic? im confused...

europe? right... not england im guessing... anywhere fun?
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goingdown

Not anywhere fun Rachael. And no not in the UK.
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Rachael

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