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Right to voice?

Started by 6thsomatic, November 07, 2008, 02:56:58 PM

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6thsomatic

I suppose this could be more of a rant. Take it as you will though.

While talking to my girlfriend about our current sexual activities, of which I'll spare you the details, she mentioned that her roommate had read and recommended a book called Daniel Rose's Sex God Method. Always one interested in increasing my sexual prowess (hey, this body has got to be good for something) I decided to take a breeze through a pdf of it.

One of the first things it started getting into was the issue of dominance in sex. It got into talking about how in ancestry there were the divisions of alpha males and beta males and so on, how some women went after the alpha males and some "perfered the gentle, nurturing nature of the beta males". Now the next portion I have to quote verbatim:

QuoteWhat happened though, is that alpha males eventually beat the >-bleeped-< out if the beta males and raped all their women. The children of beta males did not survive, the children of the alpha males did. Evolution slowly weeded out all theose women who were attraced to anything but the most dominant of men.

Today, there is only one type of female: those who like alpha males. The desire to be submissive to a dominant alpha male is one of the deepest and most important instincts of females of any species....

Now, my male side being what would other wise be considered a "beta male", takes offense to this. I don't have the desire to compete, be aggressive or the like, and so to females I'm now not attractive as a mate? More so my kind, the kinder and gentler male should have died out millennia ago? Along with this the female side of me feels that such sentiment undermines my strength and dignity, reducing me to some quivering piece of flesh to be lorded over by some muscle-bound hulk. At this point I had to stop reading, as it was bringing me to compulsively mutter ">-bleeped-< you" under my breath. After a little while I decide to breeze through again, giving it another chance, yet again found more ultra-cis, ultra-hetro sentiment. Humorously enough the book states also that a woman wants someone who's in touch with their animal desires and free of inhibiting social condition. Talk about irony.

My conundrum though is do I have the right to be angry? As being an androgyne that recognizes both sides of my psyche I feel that such writing, while perhaps beneficial to cisgendered people lacking in sexual confidence, re-enforces sexual stereotypes, furthering binary gender roles in society and making it harder for those like me to be accepted (not to mention doing further damage to womens rights). However, as being an androgyne and being neither truly male nor female am I really one to comment, as in a sense I am removed from those direct male/female gender politics?

I feel that in a way androgynes are almost uniquely qualified to comment on such issues as we (at least those who identify as both male and female) speak with better understanding of both sides. I also feel that simply as a human I have the right to comment on something that I think could slow down the process of development of equal rights and respect for all peoples. In spite of those sentiments though, I still feel the need to question the depth of my indignation.

As being those in between (or not at all) how should we face these statements? Should we speak less as androgynes and more from the humanistic side, should we polarize on the fact of detriment to our cause, or simply be above these matters and leave it to the cis to fight it out? Or some other combination?

Maybe should I just get rid of the pdf, lol.

Bise,
-6th
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Constance

I'm also what would be called a beta-male, and androgyne.

But that line about only 1 type of woman made me laugh. The author, it seems to me, is most seriously out of touch. I'm met my share of dommes who will subjugate beta and alpha males alike. I've also met a number of women who prefer the beta-male to the alpha.

If one's idea of a sex god is based on, say, Zeus, who just "couldn't keep it in his toga" as my daughter puts it, then maybe Mr. Rose is correct. But power is not the same as prowess. Subtlety can often coax a more powerful orgasm from a person than blantancy, in my experience.

Be angry, if you like. Me, I'll just shake my head. I thought that cave-men died out millenia ago. I guess I was wrong.

Nero

I'm not sure androgynes fall into binary alpha/beta male notions. You are not a male, therefore you cannot be a beta male but something else. Maybe a beta androgyne?  :)
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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6thsomatic

The idea of an alpha androgyne is kinda interesting XD
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Lokaeign

Before we even get into "do androgynes fall into alpha/beta etc categories" there's also the fact that the theory offered up by Mr Rose is a LOAD OF COBBLERS FROM SOUP TO NUTS. 

I mean, where is the evidence for this theory?  Surely if
Quote"there is only one type of [bio]female: those who like alpha males"
there would be no lesbians (no woman would ever be attracted to another woman), there would be no feminists (no woman would ever feel the need to challenge male dominance), there would be no butch women, there would be no Dommes (male subs wouldn't exist and no-one would fancy them), there would be no trans men (no-one born in a female body would feel the need to transition), there would be none of the richness and variety that exists among people born in female bodies.  There would be nothing but wave upon wave of swooning ninnies all trying to out-sub each other. 

Quote"The desire to be submissive to a dominant alpha male is one of the deepest and most important instincts of females of any species"
--what, even those species characterised by having dominant females in charge of the group, like elephants? 

And how does Rose sustantiate the claim that
Quote"alpha males eventually beat the >-bleeped-< out if the beta males and raped all their women. The children of beta males did not survive, the children of the alpha males did. Evolution slowly weeded out all theose women who were attraced to anything but the most dominant of men"
?  Did he go back in his time machine and record evidence of these early beta-male centric societies and their destruction by the dominant and rapacious alpha-male? 

This is typical of the bastard children of evolutionary psychology:  irrational, counterfactual, unscientific, sexist, and pro-rape.  Makes yer sick.
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Shana A

QuoteToday, there is only one type of female: those who like alpha males. The desire to be submissive to a dominant alpha male is one of the deepest and most important instincts of females of any species....

I agree, this is absolutely ridiculous. During the years in which I lived as "male", my female partners always expressed appreciation of my "not being like other men", or, as this author puts it, "beta male" qualities. In addition, they had no desire to be partnered with such "alpha male" types.

Anyway, as an androgyne, I'm not sure the concept of alpha and beta androgynes even exists... If it does, I'd like to start a rebellion against it  >:-)

Z
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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Pica Pica

'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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Nicky

I think we have a right to voice when it is plainly damaging for people. Do you have the right to be angry at the treatment of women, men, other queer people, blacks, gingers, disabled etc.. of course you do. This is no different.

This sort of thinking given in the book is bad for everyone. It is bad for men and women. It is bad for us too. The inflexibility of role is the real sticker.

I'm with Nero in his thinking - I'm no male. But at the heart of it I think there is the idea that somone(s) is usualy on top. Nothing wrong with that. I like both. That make me and Alphbeta, I never get any gifts from santa  :embarrassed:.
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Jaimey

Maybe I'm making too big a leap here, but to me, it sounds like the same crap you might hear from a gay basher.  To me, Rose sounds like a guy who's afraid of being seen as anything other than the uber macho, alpha male, so he wrote a book to show everyone he knows what a big man he is.  :-\
If curiosity really killed the cat, I'd already be dead. :laugh:

"How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and the strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these." GWC
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RebeccaFog

I hate alpha everything.

You should ask your girlfriend if she is advocating that you slap her around before using her.
I'm sure she'll say no.

Then have her ask her roommate the same thing.

Maybe the roommate found a way to romanticize the book, or maybe she doesn't fully understand the implication.


I just realized that my response may be offensive.  I don't mean any offense.
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Nicky

Quote from: Rebis on November 10, 2008, 08:41:55 PM
Maybe the roommate found a way to romanticize the book, or maybe she doesn't fully understand the implication.

...or more likely she liked that kind of stuff, being submissive, so it made sense to her.

I wonder if you could look at that book as also saying there are no beta males? Since none of them could breed, would there be any left?

I have seen some research that suggests hetero women tend to look for "the gentle, nurturing nature of the beta males" with more fem looks as long term partners and providers. Research suggests these types of men are also less likely to cheat.
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6thsomatic

Quote from: Rebis on November 10, 2008, 08:41:55 PM
I hate alpha everything.

You should ask your girlfriend if she is advocating that you slap her around before using her.
I'm sure she'll say no.

Then have her ask her roommate the same thing.

Maybe the roommate found a way to romanticize the book, or maybe she doesn't fully understand the implication.


I just realized that my response may be offensive.  I don't mean any offense.

She didn't read any of it beforehand, and was just as horrified when I told her.

As for her roomie, she was suprised that he recommended it afterward, and I agree, he's one of the least alpha males I know.
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RebeccaFog


It occurred to me that there is another reason that the book is nonsense.

Over the centuries, especially before technology made a 90 pound person as powerful as a 300 pound one, wars were fought by the fittest and healthiest of men.  Those men were cut down again and again for millenia.

The weaker and slave types stayed home.  Plus, in some cases, I'm sure men not fit for war took the time to make prego the wives and girlfriends of the fittest who were gone for years at a time in some cases.

There's no way there was a slaughter of Betas.  Betas would probably be dragged off with the armies to fight despite their kinder natures.
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Constance

Right, Rebis. There is no scholarship of any worth in this book.

RebeccaFog


I'm not saying this for any particular reason, but I love all of you.
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Nero

true and it's a ridiculous notion that a 'personality type' can 'die out' anyhow. that's ludicrous. and clearly if betas in the 'physical prowess' sense died out, why are we not now a species of giants?  ::)
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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RebeccaFog


A species of dimwitted giants
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Constance

It must be difficult to write a book with one hand, because it's obvious what his other hand was up to.

RebeccaFog

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Pica Pica

well, technically we are taller as a species than we were.
'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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