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How Much Input Should My Wife Have on My Transition?

Started by mtfbuckeye, November 12, 2008, 05:43:24 PM

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mtfbuckeye

The only way that my wife and I are possibly going to make it is if we start being open and honest. So the other day, when I wanted to buy some panties and nair, I didn't just do it. I asked my wife if she was ready for that step, and she said no. I respected her wishes, because I know this is going to be a slow, gradual process.

But I do wonder to what extent she should have a "veto" over steps in my transition. I'd love some advice, particularly from anybody else in a similar situation.
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gina

Every case is different as there are some very understanding woman out there. In my case nothing worked out as she refused to accept the fact that I wanted to be a female. She refused to read any info I was able to present to her and wanted no part of my counseling... I guess you could figure out what happen in my case.... first separation followed by a hurtful divorce. As much as I hate to say it this is more of the norm. The special woman out there that understand our situation is very rare and more times then not the end winds up in divorce and bitterness. I'm sorry but this is very true.

gina
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NicholeW.

Emme's given you some really good advice in her two posts, Buckeye.

I think Gina may be correct in some respects, but I also think that the "keep it quiet" conditioning of MTFs can undermine the possibilities a lot.

That and the other attitude of "I just need to do this for myself." That is true, one does need to do it for herself, but in doing so she cannot simply believe that whatever she wants is going to be the end result.

Talk, and not at each other, to each other, and pay attention to what the other says and try to go deeper than the simple pat answers that wind-up along the line of "o, whatever you want."

Marriage isn't about "whatever you want." It's about what we can agree on that we want.

Best,

Nichole
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Windrider

I'm going to echo Emme and say that if you want to remain married, you are going to have to compromise, be honest, and keep communicating. You see, your transition doesn't affect just you - it will also affect your wife, kids, and to a lesser extent your family. As I have come to realize, it's *our* journey through Dani's transition.

Dani has stated that she will not move on to the next step until I say I'm ready. And in return, I have promised to deal with the issues I have to make progress. Sometimes progress is fast and sometimes it's slow. It all depends on what is bothering me and how long it takes for me to articulate just what bothers me. As an example the steps toward HRT caused me considerable distress, but we talked a lot about why and I eventually came to a decision that removed the distress and that I am comfortable with.

Marriages and relationships can and do survive transition. Our therapist has had several such couples. We are trying very hard to be the next. I highly suggest couples therapy sessions; we have found them invaluable.

Good luck and don't be afraid to ask questions :) If you want, you can also see if your wife would like to talk with us too.

WR
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Kate

Quote from: mtfbuckeye on November 12, 2008, 05:43:24 PM
But I do wonder to what extent she should have a "veto" over steps in my transition.

I gave my wife no veto power whatsoever.

She (rightly) refused to become involved in my decision to transition. So I faced that decision entirely on my own, knowing that it might have meant the end of my marriage. Transitioning is and was more important than my marriage. That makes me sound like a horrible person, but it is.

And when I said, "I am going to transition" to her, it was a done deal. That meant HRT, coming out, name change and SRS. There was nothing to "veto," no going back, no Maybees or Ifs. I figured absolute honesty and commitment was the best thing for the both of us. No false hope for her, no compromising, no wavering for me.

The one thing she did have some input on however was WHEN and HOW. She decided when it was appropriate to change my name. She pushed ME out the door when I was still afraid to commit myself. And we compromised and bargained a bit on the SRS timetable.

But veto power? No. For myself, transitioning was an absolute, 100% fanatical commitment.

~Kate~
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tekla

I think good marriages have a lot of mutual input, but veto?  Never.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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tekla

I would think that a lot more women would be cool with the lingerie deal and shaved legs than HRT.  You can always change your underwear after all.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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tekla

I doubt that my ex would have taken a veto from me either.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Seshatneferw

Quote from: mtfbuckeye on November 12, 2008, 10:36:46 PM
If my wife said "there's no way you can transition and keep this marriage together," we'd have to have a serious talk. Where we're at is not giving her a veto, but me trying to be mindful of her feelings and not push too hard or too fast.

It might also be good to keep in mind that 'transition' is not always a single, indivisible package. There may well be some aspects of it that your wife cannot deal with however much she would want to, some aspects that you just cannot leave undone, and some aspects where it's possible for the two of you to compromise one way or another. So, in the end, you won't escape those serious talks even if you are going to keep your marriage together. :)

  Nfr
Whoopee! Man, that may have been a small one for Neil, but it's a long one for me.
-- Pete Conrad, Apollo XII
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Windrider

Well, then if you don't like "veto" then perhaps a better way of phrasing it is "admin access" :)

I have full admin access to Dani's transition. And if you don't understand exactly what that means, here is the correlation it comes from. I have full admin access to a great many servers at work. That means I can read *every* file on it, do *anything* to it - install stuff, reboot it, etc, at *any* time. Does that mean I *should*? I'd be a very poor admin if I did those things (not to mention I'd be shown the door pretty quickly too.) Why? Ethics says that if I don't need to read those files, I don't. If I don't need to do something with the machine that does not keep the company in business or secure, then I don't touch it.

The same goes for Dani's transition. Just because I *can* pretty much call a halt to things, doesn't mean I *should*. And I'd be a poor wife if I didn't do what I can to keep our marriage together and secure.

Sound better, tekla and everyone else?

Personally taking the approach that "I'm doing this and you can't stop me" is a recipe for divorce. See Charlie1's post about exactly what that does to a relationship. If Dani had done that to me, I'd be hard pressed to forgive her too and I'd probably have left her. You don't build a relationship...ANY kind of relationship on lies.

Kiera: I'm sorry you don't feel pre-transition relationships are worth keeping. Your choice on that, but there are those of us who would like to keep ours.

As for macho - well, I've been called a B*tch before. I consider it a compliment....although in IT circles, I'd be called a B*st*rd...a BOFH. I've got the stars on my cert to prove it too. :)

WR

Posted on: November 13, 2008, 07:31:34 am
Quote from: mtfbuckeye on November 12, 2008, 10:25:51 PM
WR... I'd love to talk to you and.or Dani about this.. I want to keep the marriage together.. I won't say at ALL costs, but I want to make it work.

Hi, Buckeye! I have to head to work now, but will catch you later today!

WR
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NicholeW.

I think what's happened here has been that in a couple of instances the pull and sediment from "what happened to me" or "what is happening to me" has been projected onto what Buckeye has asked.

When that happens the "energy" level is uped a few notches when it doesn't need be that way at all.

We're each gonna have different perspectives based on where we've been and how marriages/relationships etc either have fallen apart or been slow grinds to withering both prties before they split out of sheer exhaustion and anger.

Buckeye, you've gotten some good advice from both Emme and Windrider and you'd do well to listen to it. From those of us who have transitioned: well, we all have a story: based on how we look at today what we experienced over the years, sometimes for many years. All of the experiences are what they are.

The bedrock appears to be that if you presume to simply "do" something unilaterally while you're in a marriage and what you do provokes strong emotional, mental or even physical reactions from your spouse that things are NOT going to work to either your or her advantage. You take with you recriminations, anger, and a level of cynicism that will basically bleed over into everything you see and do.

I don't get the sense that is what you want. If not work and truly have open discussions without holding back what's really on your mind. TBH, that might be harder for her. No matter the progress that's been made over the past forty years, women have still, to a great extent, been raised with the idea that "to make things better" we have to withhold things that might kill the relationship. We tend to take responsibility for "the relationship" onto ourselves.

That tends to be less acute the younger the partnership is. But I have this sense that neither you nor your wife are "that young." Not old, but still with certain assumptions that may have been prevalent thirty-forty years ago.

Try to read with a discerning eye and find, if you can, some peace with the fact that after years of hiding and holding that to give your marriage a chance you are gonna have to come clean.

BTW, "ruminating" on the beard is all well and good. But that makes it sound as though you are still way beyond decided about anything that approaches transsexing. That means, I think, that you and your wife get to start this communication process at a very early stage.

Good luck.

Nichole

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Kate

Quote from: Windrider on November 13, 2008, 06:32:20 AM
Personally taking the approach that "I'm doing this and you can't stop me" is a recipe for divorce. See Charlie1's post about exactly what that does to a relationship. If Dani had done that to me, I'd be hard pressed to forgive her too and I'd probably have left her. You don't build a relationship...ANY kind of relationship on lies.

IMHO, a wife deserves to know ASAP if someone plans to transition. She deserves to have all the information possible to make an informed decision about her own life and future. If someone *knows* they're going to transition, IMHO they should inform their spouse ASAP, and in no uncertain or vague terms - rather than feed her false hope just to keep the marriage together for the convenience of the TS as I unfortunately did.

But I may be misunderstanding what was meant by "steps in my transition?" To me, transition means committing to taking the steps to change one's sex... physically, legally and socially. Those things can't be vetoed, or there'd be no transition. But if what was really meant was, "steps to explore my feminine self" such as buying panties and shaving the legs, then of course partners can work that out together, deciding what to explore and when.

But *transition* is something else entirely, IMHO.

~Kate~
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gina

I think maybe its a good idea if I clarify on my earlier post. First and most important you need to be honest and upfront with your spouse, when ever you first figure out you GID issue and not to do anything behind their back. In my case thats exactly what I did and unfortunately it did not work out, she refused hearing just the thought of it, even though in our earlier years she allowed me to dress up (took me many years to find out that I was not only a CD but had GID) that explained the whole problem.

Ok back to the point, all I was trying to achieve in my post is: once this step is done (letting you spouse know, which you should) its like opening a can of worms and once out there's no going back. This is not like talking over what to do with the garage ect, or is it ok for you to by a motorcycle ect, this is something that you never experienced in you life before so you better not look at this thru rose colored glasses and that means hearing the good as well as the bad and thats what I was trying to say in my post. I was always upfront with people as I think most would prefer that.

I wish you the best and hope it all works out as smooth as it could (we all know this is very possible at times) But most importantly make sure this is really what you want before pursuing too deep into that open can of worms I mentioned. Take care...  :)

gina
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Hypatia

Good riddance to your beard, Buckeye. Accomplishing that is maybe the most important step of all. I remember it took me nearly two weeks after I admitted to myself that I was trans before I got up the nerve to lose the beard. Meanwhile, I was waiting for the right chance to sit down with my wife and oldest daughter and break the news to them that I'm trans, and that at first I didn't know what to do about it, but this is who I know myself to be. They did not take it well.

I compromised for over two and a half years, by not doing anything at first but going to a therapist, and then little by little feminizing myself pre-hormones, very slightly, very slowly. I did take my wife's input, and let her put the brakes on my forward progress although without bringing me to a dead halt. I compared it to driving in first gear. It was hard on me, it was hard on both of us, but we did consult with each other.

I also took her to see two therapists with me. That made three times total in our marriage we'd been to therapists together. Each time ended in her having a dramatic emotional meltdown and stalking out, accusing the therapist and me of being in conspiracy to put her down. Because she has some heavy unresolved issues that she has never accepted dealing with. We have not had a normal marriage all along; we have rarely or never been able to talk about things the way normal healthy couples are able to. She has been emotionally abusive toward me for many years, and at times physically abusive too, but I stayed with it because I believed it was my duty, and for many years I remained in denial that I was an abuse victim. Just as for many years I'd remained in denial that I was trans.

Both of the attempts with therapists quickly broke down because she could not handle the process, anytime it shone a light on her own issues, she staged another dramatic emotional meltdown and that was that. So I became progressively less able to work with her on my transition timeline.

Once I started hormones, it was a major revolution in how I experienced my self, my body, and who I am. I began blossoming as a woman for real and it began the deep healing I'd been badly in need of since childhood. Further, once estrogen had transformed me, it became increasingly hard to maintain maleness. My skin became so much softer and more sensitive, the feeling of rough male fabrics became intolerable, so I took to wearing 100% women's clothes (plain blouses and pants) to work every day, and wearing loose flowing housedresses at home.

My last attempt at saving my marriage by going to a therapist ended a little over a year ago and it was a complete failure. She expressed an angry paranoid belief it was a conspiracy against her. She proposed she would find a therapist for us, and I agreed. But then she never did, so that was the end of attempts at therapy.

Meanwhile last year my dysphoria at the least trace of maleness had become aggravated to excruciating agony, and I felt I would not be able to go on in life unless I transitioned soon. The benefits of both estrogen and my social life which was now completely female brought me to realize that this was the only way I could go on living. The thought of being forced back into maleness brought on extreme panic attacks. My gender therapist kept telling me to take care of my own needs and never mind my family's disapproval. He became impatient with me because I kept holding back, longing to preserve my family ties that were being broken. He kept urging me to go ahead and break with them already and forget about them.

When I finally transitioned to full time last year, it was by following my own inner guidance, neither held back by my family not pushed forward by my therapist, but just thinking for myself and managing my needs for health, sanity, and safety the best I could. I feel I transitioned at the right point in the process, having given my wife and family adequate chances for input into it. My parents, sisters, and children all judge and condemn me for being "selfish" and only caring for myself, not caring for anyone else; these accusations wound me very deeply and painfully, because I did hold back from transition for their sake for years and years, until I was breaking down from unbearable pain and unable to go on without transition. They have never known the intensity of the pain I carried quietly inside all those years, so they are not in a position to judge me fairly. Still, they continue to judge me unfairly, so I have lost my family and have become in effect orphaned.

The reason why I need to leave my marriage now is not because I transitioned, but because of the long-term abusiveness in the marriage, and threats of violence from her. And because she refused to work with me. I was willing to work with her, but it just broke down. And then the abusiveness and threats of violence meant I had to get out like any other abused wife. I have been getting counseling at Women Empowered Against Violence, a place that helps abused wives to get out, rebuild their lives, and recover from the history of abuse and reclaim their self-esteem.
Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls
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Windrider

Quote from: mtfbuckeye on November 12, 2008, 10:25:51 PM
WR... I'd love to talk to you and.or Dani about this.. I want to keep the marriage together.. I won't say at ALL costs, but I want to make it work.

I'm home from work now. I don't know if I'll be on chat or not, but you can also PM me if you want.

WR
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debbie j

well honeslty mtfbuckeye  you look soo much  more better  now that the beard is gone!!
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Jennywocky

Pretty much my assess is much like what's been stated here.

I think my life philosophy has solidified into, "Each partner does what they need to do, but with the acceptance that there are ramifications to those choices." And then you work through it together, to see what each person can handle and is willing to sacrifice.

In situations like this, both have to be committed not to "staying together at all costs" but understanding that they are renegotiating the relationship... and the end result could look very different from what they have now.

It reminds me of a comment by Grace that Jenny Boylan reports in her bio -- where she felt like her input did not matter in terms of what Jenny was doing, because Jenny was going to transition regardless. That was non-negotiable for her. Grace only got the choice of what sort of relationship she would have with Jenny during and after. (One of my children also expressed this to me recently: "I don't have any control over this, it doesn't matter what I'll say, you're still going to do this!" He was very upset by that. My heart broke for him, but there was little I could say but, "yes, sweetie, that part can't change, and I'm sorry you are having to come to terms with it; but I still love you and aren't letting you deal with this alone.")

This lack of control is frustrating and painful. At the same time, someone has to make decisions. For years I abdicated making decisions and went with what everyone else wanted (i.e., make the guy thing work somehow) to avoid hurting them... and in the end I couldn't maintain that.

It seems in the end that what works best is for each person to determine their own level of commitment and acceptance of changes in the relationship. (i.e., each person can only control and make decisions for themselves.)

To do this, though, every person needs information from the others as well as some leeway/empathy... the assumption that you love each other, and any disagreement is not a personal slap but a sense of the the overall larger good of what that person can accept in the relationship.

(That's why dishonesty in relationships pisses me off when I see it. I've been guilty in the past, out of fear, and I ended up really hurting people I love. I realized I was lessening the pain of my own choices for myself at THEIR expense. I am committed to not doing that anymore, nor do I like seeing others do it.)

Anyway, looking at the title:

If you love your wife, you'll ask her advice/input so she feels as included as possible.
You'll give her freedom and information to make her decisions.
You're in a marriage. There's hopefully a responsibility and a love there for her as a human being.
If you cut her out of the loop and just run roughshod, the relationship will likely crash and burn.

I don't even necessarily think it should be focused on the "end results" as to what is best. I think if we love people and see them as part of our lives, we'll include them in our considerations and avoid hurting them where we can. We want to empower them as much as possible.
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Hypatia

Quote from: Windrider on November 13, 2008, 06:32:20 AMPersonally taking the approach that "I'm doing this and you can't stop me" is a recipe for divorce.
I very much agree with this. And it so happens I was OK with divorce. The fact is, I don't love her. I'm kind and gentle and respectful to her, I go out of my way to help her any time she needs help with anything, I do my best to keep our relationship pleasant. I never return vindictiveness for the times she is mean to me. I give her support for her issues that are separate from me. I have been taking the best care of her I possibly can. But I just don't love her and I don't want to be married to her any more. That's my personal hangup. But anyone who loves their spouse and wants to stay together had better listen to Windrider.
Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls
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