Should we really stop suicide?

[lisagurl]

Suicide by cop is a suicide method in which a person deliberately acts in a threatening way, with the goal of provoking a lethal response from a law enforcement officer, such as being shot to death.

Leeland Eisenberg, who took hostages in one of Hillary Clinton's campaign offices in December 2007, claimed afterwards it was an attempted suicide by cop

Kip Kinkel, a school shooter, attempted suicide-by-cop but was subdued by pepper spray instead

[Kelley Jo]

Terra hun I can't know the extent of your depression from reading a few posts. I can encourage you to do everything you can to educate yourself and seek out appropriate treatment. This takes a real commitment. It can take a couple years to find the right medication, or combination of medications, simply because they take 30 to 60 days to begin working and more time to see if the side effects are tolerable. You have to go to weekly appointments so the doctors can evaluate all this. Attending a support group is also advisable.

And as someone else said, you must take care of your body. Alcohol, drugs, caffiene and nicotene and a poor diet can exacerbate the symptoms. Daily excercise is also vitally important. I'd also suggest that many of your problems are the product of youth and you will outgrow them with time and maturity. It's hard to see now but believe me, living life has a way of teaching you what you're doing wrong.

You say you want to live, so the question is not whether anyone should stop you from committing suicide, it's what are you going to do to help yourself. There is support out there but you have to want it enough to find it and do the footwork and show you are serious and self-disciplined enough to stick with it.

I do have some experience with this, I'd be glad to share anything I can with you if it will be helpful.

[Terra]

Terra hun I can't know the extent of your depression from reading a few posts. I can encourage you to do everything you can to educate yourself and seek out appropriate treatment. This takes a real commitment. It can take a couple years to find the right medication, or combination of medications, simply because they take 30 to 60 days to begin working and more time to see if the side effects are tolerable. You have to go to weekly appointments so the doctors can evaluate all this. Attending a support group is also advisable.

And as someone else said, you must take care of your body. Alcohol, drugs, caffiene and nicotene and a poor diet can exacerbate the symptoms. Daily excercise is also vitally important. I'd also suggest that many of your problems are the product of youth and you will outgrow them with time and maturity. It's hard to see now but believe me, living life has a way of teaching you what you're doing wrong.

You say you want to live, so the question is not whether anyone should stop you from committing suicide, it's what are you going to do to help yourself. There is support out there but you have to want it enough to find it and do the footwork and show you are serious and self-disciplined enough to stick with it.

I do have some experience with this, I'd be glad to share anything I can with you if it will be helpful.

Thank you for your concern Kelleygurl. i thought some people were thinking about this, but wasn't sure. Please understand that though I am probably chronically or maniac depressed, I am taking meds for it and talking to people. As I said I am not planning or attempting suicide. I use myself because I can use myself as an example, this is not a posting of intention to commit suicide or me looking for confirmation from others that suicide is ok.

The reason I started this post was because I noticed that whenever I talked about suicide and that I have thoughts almost daily of suicide I notice that talk of going to the psych wards tends to pop up. This along with promising to not commit suicide is quite common. I finally told one psychologist that if she wanted blood and a guarantee that I would commit suicide that the way to do it would be to force me to go to a psych ward, I had no intention of killing myself and would not be threatened into doing something I didn't want to do. Law be damned. To this date I tell her when the feelings get worse and she helps me through them, but talk of police custody and psych visits have stopped.

It was this incident that made me realize that we don't usually try to understand the person who suffers before we try and restrain them 'for their own good' and to 'protect them from themselves'. To me, that sounds slightly fascist. It is us putting our wants and needs over the individual's. I used to beleive that it was cowardly and selfish to hurt others in such a way as suicide. It was giving up in its ultimate form. This was before I tasted those dark depths and still taste them everyday. Where everyday is literally emotional pain that I can't seem to move on from. Maybe i'm weak in that regard, but I haven't given up on this life yet. However I can understand why someone would want to do it, and it is from that understanding that I find myself unable to blame them for the aftermath that suicide leaves behind.

So while I find it sad, it is no different in my eyes then crossing a desert with limited supplies. Some just won't make it to the other side, no matter how much you try to help those who travel with you. Some people just won't be strong enough to make it and will fall down and die. To that extent, though you may start the journey thinking that you would never give up like that, until you are given the acid test there is no way to be sure how you truly will respond.

[joannatsf]

Suicide is not a rational choice for healthy people.  It is most often due to Major Depressive Disorder, a psychitric illness that can almost always be succesfully treated.  Depression is caused by an imbalance of neuro-transmitters in the brain.  I've been to the suicide place.  It is filled with dispare and hopelesness.  But I was wrong.  There was and is hope for recovery.  It requires hard work and dedication to get there but it can be done.  Try medications.  If one doesn't work for you, try another one. 

There are a number of people that have survived the plunge from the Golden Gate Bridge.  It's a long drop so a person has a few moments to think about what they've done.  Invariably they recall thinking the same thing; "why did I do this, it was a huge mistake".  Life is about struggle and pain as well as excitement and ecstacy.  Fight for it, you're worth it!

[Terra]

There are a number of people that have survived the plunge from the Golden Gate Bridge.  It's a long drop so a person has a few moments to think about what they've done.  Invariably they recall thinking the same thing; "why did I do this, it was a huge mistake".  Life is about struggle and pain as well as excitement and ecstacy.  Fight for it, you're worth it!

*shakes her head* That is rationalization. Which most of us come up with to justify what normally is spur of the moment thinking. The only difference between a good choice and a bad choice is the outcome, and when you stand at the crossroads of decision most of us take the one we think will lead to the best outcome. Usually this is done without complete information or even fully developed thought as to the outcome.

After we make that decision we come up quickly with the reasons for why we did it. Usually these reasons become clearer as time passes or even more complex. Very rarly do we truely make decisions with a full mental plan before we take action. If you want proof of that then ask yourself why there are so many crimes commited in the heat of the moment. The number of murders and such that are truely planned out are far outnumbered by the ones committed in the heat of the moment, such as crimes of passion.

In regards to suicide, if given time to think they might regret it, but so does anyone doing something mundane and getting second thoughts. Heck, even transfolk who know they have to transition have second thoughts. Everyone has doubts, to say that this is sufficient to discredit someone's right to take their own life is a shaky position.

[lady amarant]

It was this incident that made me realize that we don't usually try to understand the person who suffers before we try and restrain them 'for their own good' and to 'protect them from themselves'. To me, that sounds slightly fascist. It is us putting our wants and needs over the individual's.

That's absolutely the sum of it for me. If somebody is obviously suffering to the point where they wish death rather than to go on living, and you cannot provide them with an alternative, then it's purely selfish to prevent that person from doing what they have chosen to do. The key is to get to know a person and their situation, and then help that person think laterally in terms of alternative ways of alleviating the suffering. If that is not possible, for example terminal illness or whatever other reason, euthanasia should be an allowable option. Keeping people alive "for their own good" and because "suicide is a sin" or whatever is a load of BS.

~Simone.

[sd]

*shakes her head* That is rationalization. Which most of us come up with to justify what normally is spur of the moment thinking. The only difference between a good choice and a bad choice is the outcome, and when you stand at the crossroads of decision most of us take the one we think will lead to the best outcome. Usually this is done without complete information or even fully developed thought as to the outcome.

Studies have shown a large percentage of bridge jumpers are spur of the moment suicides, not something planned in advance. They are not yet sure why bridges attract or cause this type of attempts at suicide.

[lady amarant]

They are not yet sure why bridges attract or cause this type of attempts at suicide.

I suppose it's a combination of convenience and access. Shooting, hanging, jumping off-of buildings - those all take time, during which the person might reconsider the suicide. A bridge is just ... there, ready to be used.

~Simone.

[sd]

They are not yet sure why bridges attract or cause this type of attempts at suicide.

I suppose it's a combination of convenience and access. Shooting, hanging, jumping off-of buildings - those all take time, during which the person might reconsider the suicide. A bridge is just ... there, ready to be used.

~Simone.

That is part of it but they say there is much more to it.
The documentary "The Bridge" talks about it some.

[lady amarant]

Thanks hon, I'll keep an eye out for the doccie.

~Simone.

[joannatsf]

They are not yet sure why bridges attract or cause this type of attempts at suicide.

I suppose it's a combination of convenience and access. Shooting, hanging, jumping off-of buildings - those all take time, during which the person might reconsider the suicide. A bridge is just ... there, ready to be used.

~Simone.

Almost all jumpers of the GG Bridge jump on the side facing San Francisco, which is the most watched part of the bridge.  Almost no one jumps facing the side that looks out over the Pacific Ocean.   

Posted on: 15 November 2008, 09:47:33

There are a number of people that have survived the plunge from the Golden Gate Bridge.  It's a long drop so a person has a few moments to think about what they've done.  Invariably they recall thinking the same thing; "why did I do this, it was a huge mistake".  Life is about struggle and pain as well as excitement and ecstacy.  Fight for it, you're worth it!

*shakes her head* That is rationalization. Which most of us come up with to justify what normally is spur of the moment thinking. The only difference between a good choice and a bad choice is the outcome, and when you stand at the crossroads of decision most of us take the one we think will lead to the best outcome. Usually this is done without complete information or even fully developed thought as to the outcome.

After we make that decision we come up quickly with the reasons for why we did it. Usually these reasons become clearer as time passes or even more complex. Very rarly do we truely make decisions with a full mental plan before we take action. If you want proof of that then ask yourself why there are so many crimes commited in the heat of the moment. The number of murders and such that are truely planned out are far outnumbered by the ones committed in the heat of the moment, such as crimes of passion.

In regards to suicide, if given time to think they might regret it, but so does anyone doing something mundane and getting second thoughts. Heck, even transfolk who know they have to transition have second thoughts. Everyone has doubts, to say that this is sufficient to discredit someone's right to take their own life is a shaky position.

The illustrative anecdote wasn't the crux of my argument.  Simply stated that is:

1. Most suicide is caused by depression.
2. Depression is a mental illness.  A brain abnormality, much like transsexuality.
3. The mental illness can be effectivtily treated in most instances.

Therefore, one should seek treatment when symptoms present, not take the more harmfull course of self-immolation.

Posted on: 15 November 2008, 09:55:11

They are not yet sure why bridges attract or cause this type of attempts at suicide.

I suppose it's a combination of convenience and access. Shooting, hanging, jumping off-of buildings - those all take time, during which the person might reconsider the suicide. A bridge is just ... there, ready to be used.

~Simone.

It's not like it's sitting in the middle of the city.  It does take some effort to get there.  Likely 30 mins or so on public transit.  Then there is the walk over the cantalever portion of the bridga to the main span and to it center.  I'm sure there are a lot of people that change there mind before they get there.

[sd]

It's not like it's sitting in the middle of the city.  It does take some effort to get there.  Likely 30 mins or so on public transit.  Then there is the walk over the cantalever portion of the bridga to the main span and to it center.  I'm sure there are a lot of people that change there mind before they get there.

No, people will just casually be walking across and suddenly decide it's a good idea.

Yes, many do plan it, but a lot just suddenly do it without being suicidal prior to that moment. Some who survived said they just felt an urge to jump for no reason.

Also you mentioned at the GG they tend to prefer one side, it is not just at that bridge. That is the trend for some reason at all bridges that have high rates of suicide.

[NicholeW.]

Is there any reason besides religion that denies the validity of the right to take one's own life?

There's no enforcement procedure that can prevent it. Whether or not or why and why not I agree or disagree with someone offing herself just isn't relevant to whether or not she can and will do so.

Nikki

[tekla]

Almost all jumpers of the GG Bridge jump on the side facing San Francisco, which is the most watched part of the bridge.  Almost no one jumps facing the side that looks out over the Pacific Ocean.

Well, the side facing the City is the ped side, the other side (West) is reserved for bikes. 

[joannatsf]

National Survivors of Suicide Day
Saturday, November 22, 2008

9:30 a.m. – 12:45 p.m.

Langley Porter Psychiatric Institute
401 Parnassus Ave, Room 190


Every year thousands of survivors of suicide loss nationwide will share in a day of healing and empowerment through the 10th annual National Survivors of Suicide Day sponsored by the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention (AFSP). Broadcast live via web, satellite, and DVD to more than 100 local conference sites nationwide, the day allows survivors to connect with others who have lost loved ones to suicide.

UCSF Department of Psychiatry psychologist, Beverly Lehr, PhD, and chief resident, Melissa Nau, MD, will moderate a discussion group after the DVD broadcast for attendees to share and ask questions. This event is free and open to anyone who has lost loved ones to suicide. Click here to learn about the 2008 panelists and speakers. The program will also be available online at www.afsp.org. Coffee and pastries will be provided.

Please share this event with patients, colleagues, family, and friends.

Event listing: http://psych.ucsf.edu/events.aspx?id=2526

To learn more about
National Survivors of Suicide Day,
please vist http://www.afsp.org

[Truth Seeker]

The mistaken assumption being made in this situation is that death is somehow a release from pain. I'll never understand why people insist on believing this completely unfounded fantasy that just because it is unexplored to them, it will somehow magically fix everything.

Instead, think of this in terms of running away - to a different place. When does that ever solve anything? It doesn't, you just bring your problems and scars with you, and history ends up repeating itself. Trust me, I've seen it a thousand times before, running away doesn't help.

Life's problems can only be solved when you are alive, anything else simply seperates you from the ability to do anything about them. Consider that when you're looking for a way out, if you choose the easy way, you may instead actually be trapping yourself even further in.


Truth Seeker

[NicholeW.]

The mistaken assumption being made in this situation is that death is somehow a release from pain. I'll never understand why people insist on believing this completely unfounded fantasy that just because it is unexplored to them, it will somehow magically fix everything.

Instead, think of this in terms of running away - to a different place. When does that ever solve anything? It doesn't, you just bring your problems and scars with you, and history ends up repeating itself. Trust me, I've seen it a thousand times before, running away doesn't help.

Life's problems can only be solved when you are alive, anything else simply seperates you from the ability to do anything about them. Consider that when you're looking for a way out, if you choose the easy way, you may instead actually be trapping yourself even further in.


Truth Seeker

"Mistaken assumption" and "the esay way out"?

I tend to agree with being against suicide, Seeker.

But I think there are some a priori presumtions at work in your thinking as well.

As you point out, quite correctly, there's no evidence that suicde will release one from whatever pain and trouble currently affects the life of the person in question.

I'm rather conflicted, however, where you find the "evidence" that the choice of suicide is "mistaken" or "easy." I'd imagine that until one dies one wouldn't be privy to that knowledge, that she'd only have a preference based on her own view of life and living and the imagination of what might ensue afterwards, provided, of course, there is an afterwards other than that which is inherent in the equivalence of energy and matter and the scientific fact that both are, as best we can discover, eternal.


Nichole

[Truth Seeker]

Well there are ways to study the spiritual effects of death and the consequences therein, provided you can be open-minded and patient enough to follow those threads of study.

But this forum strikes me as not really an appropriate place for those veins of thought, and I certainly wouldn't want to come off as priori for my beliefs. So never mind.

provided, of course, there is an afterwards other than that which is inherent in the equivalence of energy and matter and the scientific fact that both are, as best we can discover, eternal.


Nichole

Who said it has to be something other than that scientific fact? This being true, the question is where, or in what state would you like to spend your eternity?

Still, I'll bow out, as metaphysical views/beliefs are apparently a little controvertial for an ordinary forum like this.


Truth Seeker

[Truth Seeker]

Not at all.  You are most welcome to your beliefs, and I, as a point in fact, enjoy hearing other viewpoints even if I disagree.

Thank you, but I think I'll step around that particular landmine. Wouldn't want to provoke an uneccesary debate. I don't mind discussing the original angle of the topic however.

However, the question was should we really stop suicide?  Now, as I see it, this basically breaks down as Should we, as a society, force our beliefs onto an individual regardless of whether they subscribe to these beliefs or not?

Now see, that's interesting... because I see that question in a totally different light.

To me it's asking "should we try to save people from suicide", rather than any indication of force.

I have stopped suicide before, several times. With words, carefully constructed arguments, providing a shoulder to cry on and a lot of patience. Now don't get me wrong, I am certainly not suggesting anyone else try this, in fact I would make a point of warning you all to simply recomend counselling in that situation, you should NOT try to take it upon yourself to fix someone.

Nevertheless, I still read that question of asking should we try to stop suicide, not should we force ourselves upon others. In other words, should we discourage people from doing it, try to talk them out of it, try to help in some way, or just generally not condone it? In my opinion, absolutely. Every life is prescious, so to me, someone commiting suicide is just the same as commiting murder - the loss is the same at the end of the day.

If someone I loved were to try to commit suicide, would I try to stop them? Absolutely. On blind reflex I would try to protect them, even if it does mean breaking my own philosophy of freedom being the most important thing in life, but that doesn't mean I think I should do so. I wouldn't exactly be thinking clearly in a situation like that, I'm sure.

But would I accept it? No. The only kind of suicide I can condone is that which ends a painful, terminal illness, and even then I would encourage they learn to deal with the pain. But a mercy killing is still just a mercy killing, even if suicidal, and that can be acceptible in my opinion. In any other situation? No, I would not accept it, and I would try to talk them out of it.

I wouldn't WANT to force my views on them, but when push comes to shove I probably would anyway, simply through instinct to keep them safe. Hypocritical maybe, but as I said, that wouldn't really be a conscious choice so much as a reflex.

Some wounds can't be healed and some breaks can't be mended.

This, I disagree with. Other than the mercy killing argument I just made, I believe that all wounds of the heart can be healed or dealt with over time. Suicide may not be an easy thing to do, but it's still the easier way out, and as such, in my opinion, a cowardly one. Life's problems can only be fixed while alive, even if you don't believe in an afterlife, the suicide itself still does not actually mend them.


Truth Seeker

[NicholeW.]

No, Seeker, didn't mean to try and suggest an argument at all. Just another pov is all.

I just found your post to have rather much an "angle" instead of a "seeking" position in this case. So, in some ways, I would suppose, your truth-search has been a successful one for you?

There are any number of breaks and wounds that cannot be healed, at least from the perspective of someone who's worked a long time with those we refer to as "persistently mentally ill." No amount of reason or medication seems able to get to the core of the problem with some folks.

I have experienced pain as well as I am sure everyone who's posted here has experienced it. For me, they have healed and do heal and I have every expectation that they will continue to do so. But, I've also worked with any number of people who defy the tenets of both medicational wisdom and cognitive-behavioral or dialectical-behavioral or even relational-cultural modes of having them see and believe that the pains they hold onto are able to be healed.

Thus, I am often left with the notion that what applies to many, most even, doesn't apply to all human beings.

Faith can be an excellent source of healing for some, but for others it's quite as much a blank-wall as the notion of suicide seems to be for you.

Like Emme I'd be devastated at the death of someone I loved; but, having had that occur a few times, I also realize that stopping that suicide was an impossible task. One makes entreaties and tries to rationalize with another about not taking that step, but, to be very honest, I cannot see it as "cowardly." Nor can I see my intyerventions as having been "successful" in that regard for those people. 

That (cowardly) simply loads up the language and becomes the shame/guilt reasoning for not doing or doing a thing that I find not a lot different than telling one of my children, "because I said so."

In actuality I quite agree with you in that I do believe things can mostly be healed, or like to think that anyway. Oth, some things appear to not be amenable to the healing, in all respects, that we have available.

Seeing therapists can be a very positive means of coping with sorrow and devastation for people who make a decision to commit to getting better if they can. But, no therapist has any power to divert someone who refuses to be diverted. There's no therapy that is any good if the client isn't buying into the need and has no desire to "get better."

My experience also suggests to me that some people may have certain deeply-seated biologies and mental conditionings that absolutely preclude them "getting better."

Plus, I also have a nagging notion that our firm exhortations to "struggle-against-the tide" may be as wrong-headed as emotional advice as they would be were you and I to be swimming on a wild river.

Perhaps comfort, solace and change might be available more often if we learned a bit more about allowing a current to be a current and we allow ourselves to "go with the flow."

Mother didn't choose to place me in a world where I have radical control of things. Instead I live in a world of contingencies so much stronger than I am in so many cases that I cannot understand or struggle against them without wearing myself into a depression and the possibility of drowning emotionally and mentally.

Sometimes all the struggle I can make is not enough to overcome the difficuty at hand.

Nichole