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Will homosexuals silence America's Christians?

Started by Shana A, December 01, 2008, 07:25:24 AM

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glendagladwitch

If religious people did not teach their children that there is only one possible "truth," and punish those children and anyone else who doesn't accept that truth, and then I don't think religious folks would be experiencing so much hostility from others.  If America's Christians are treated unfarily in the future, well, I think they have to look within to find the source of the problem.
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tekla

Oh my god, its the most damn religious nation on earth, and its a christian nation at that.  No one is ever going to turn off that noise machine.  And I'll give a burnt offering or two to the deity that tells me how.

ADDED:  Look, I'll admit that its all me. I just dont' see it.  I don't see any divinity shaping our ends.  I don't see no cosmic justice in the world.  I don't see where good things don't happen to very bad people, and why the worst ->-bleeped-<- in the world falls on the people who can stand it the least.  I don't get it.  Perhaps that's just me.  I'm sure it is.  It's all in my mind after all.

But then again, it's all in your mind too, and you can't prove one iota of it.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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NicholeW.

Quote from: Kristi on December 05, 2008, 06:35:35 PM

QuoteI don't think I have any common frame of reference with the very religious.

This may be the most honest statement of this whole discussion, and the crux of the problem.  Of course you could change that if you want.  It would take dialogue and listening on both parts.  In short , it would take work.  It's a bit more difficult than just resentment, but it is well worth it.

Hmm, last I recalled a "crux" is a crossing that has two arms intersecting, no? I suspect that the converse of the quoted statement
QuoteI don't think I have any common frame of reference with the very religious.
is also true?

That being the case and neither arm having a common frame of reference with the other arm, I'm wondering if any amount of dialogue and listening is going to provide common frames of reference.

This thread certainly isn't providing me with the sense that either pov has enough reference in-common with the other to either listen to or engage with the other.

Although I think that the original question, about whether or not gays are gonna silence christians, has certainly been shown to be, at this point, not a major concern. But, I'm blonde.

Nichole
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tekla

I'm pretty sure that invention number two, if the straight line was invention number one, was the cross.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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lady amarant

What gets me down the most is when I DO try to speak with religious people from within their own frame of reference. But introduce a discussion about the council of Nicea, and they argue that God would have worked through all those bickering priests to make sure his word came through correctly. Same argument if you try to introduce alternate views on Christianity from Gnostic texts or the Apocrypha or whatever else. And again the same argument when you show them comparisons between the wording in original scriptures and the modern translations used today, or introduce the argument of context and word-meaning, or pretty-much anything else.

The Christians, (and Muslims, it must be added) that I have tried to talk to PURELY from a theological and historical standpoint have ONE response, one undeniable argument: That whatever translation or version of the holy scripture they follow is TODAY the word of God, that he has made so. Every other translation, every other version, past or present, is wrong. For whatever it is worth, I find that the limited interaction I've had with Buddhists and traditional Hindus tend to be more open and "inclusive", for lack of a better word.

Middle ground is there to be found between the religious and the secular, but if the religious do not even accept their own rich histories and traditions, how can one meet them halfway?

~Simone.
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Suzy

Quote from: Nichole link=topic=50500.msg314009#msg314009 da
This thread certainly isn't providing me with the sense that either pov has enough reference in-common with the other to either listen to or engage with the other.

Nichole

This will remain true only as long as you want it to.

Quote. Same argument if you try to introduce alternate views on Christianity from Gnostic texts or the Apocrypha or whatever else. And again the same argument when you show them comparisons between the wording in original scriptures and the modern translations used today, or introduce the argument of context and word-meaning, or pretty-much anything else.

Actually, some very much enjoy this kind of discussion.  In my circle we do, anyway.

QuoteMiddle ground is there to be found between the religious and the secular, but if the religious do not even accept their own rich histories and traditions, how can one meet them halfway?

I agree.  There is room for improvement in the honesty department all the way around.

Kristi
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lady amarant

Quote from: Kristi on December 06, 2008, 07:48:34 AM
Actually, some very much enjoy this kind of discussion.  In my circle we do, anyway.

Perhaps I'm moving in the wrong circles then. ;)

I don't know Kristi, honestly, I've been fortunate enough to talk to one or two really knowledgeable, open-minded Christians online, but for the most part, and IRL, I've only ever had negative experiences. Some very strong ones. Absolutely, I concede that that colours my own opinions, and that does bleed through into my arguments when things get hectic in a debate. It just sometimes feels like, while there are many Christians out there who do know their religion and are willing to discuss things openly and honestly, and are willing to accept difference, that the vast majority are scary. And honestly, that is what I feel. I am afraid of Christianity, of another Inquisition, or the Burning Times happening again, or more Holy Crusades.

I'm sorry for anything I've said that's offended you.

~Simone.
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NicholeW.

Quote from: Kristi on December 06, 2008, 07:48:34 AM

This will remain true only as long as you want it to.


Which makes my point quite well. The onus is forever presumed by christians to be on the other to meet them. Kris. 

What would be the effect of "your wish" in all this? You seem to consistently find the problems all in the other end of the court.

So, yes, I will continue to find it useless to talk with any christian to the right of --- UCC.

Nichole

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Hazumu

This topic has been interesting reading.  I don't comment much, as I can't see where my position hasn't already been covered and discussed by those who share views similar to mine.

I wanted to make this post to the topic to say:

I'm really impressed that this divisive topic has remained for the most part thoughtful.  I wish that all discussions on divisive topics would use this topic as an example of how it can be done.

Kudos!

Karen
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Suzy

Quote from: Nichole on December 06, 2008, 11:12:52 AM
Which makes my point quite well. The onus is forever presumed by christians to be on the other to meet them. Kris. 
What would be the effect of "your wish" in all this? You seem to consistently find the problems all in the other end of the court.
So, yes, I will continue to find it useless to talk with any christian to the right of --- UCC.
Nichole

Not so, dear Nichole.  Truth be known, I tell the same thing to both sides.  You will have to trust me on that, but I do have plenty of chances to.  Here is what I see:  Both sides lined up, really wanting (except for the extreme elements on both sides) to talk and understand one another.  But neither will make the first move.  And each standing there blaming the other for not moving first.  No one would be caught dead moving first!  So who do I blame?  Everybody!  No, I don't find the guilt only at one end.  Have you been reading what I have written?  There is plenty of blame to go around.  Can we stop that game and just determine to move forward?  As one who belongs in both worlds, I would so desperately love to.  But it is so very obvious that many don't.  If that's the case, everything I write will do nothing but frustrate you.

I am just so saddened to see so many (yes, on both sides) who would rather spend their energy hating, accusing, and blaming.  We only have a limited quantity of energy in this life, and that is a really poor use of it. 

Yes, I do blame the bigots on both sides.  I blame the hypocrites on both sides:  The ones who speak of tolerance and acceptance for everyone, then turn around and exclude other based on their religious views; the ones who speak of the love of God and  study the life of Christ and claim to be his followers, while hurling judgment against the very kind of people he hung around while he was on earth.  Yes, I'm repulsed and sickened by all of it.

So sit around and gripe if you wish.  We are all here to stay.  That will not change.  Go ahead and mire in the blame game.  It is safe and even politically correct.  I, for one, choose to make a difference when I can.  I am acutely aware that few wish to join me.  But if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. 

Peace,
Kristi
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glendagladwitch

History has shown that it is just unrealistic to expect that everyone can just all get along, especially where religion is involved.  And religion simply cannot be trusted with the reigns of political power.  Too much harm is done.  Much less harm is done when religion is forced to butt out of government.  And the "perceived harm" experienced by Christions and Muslims and so forth not being permitted to express their opinions to young children about ->-bleeped-<-s and ->-bleeped-<-s is much less than the "actual harm" done by the expression of such sentiments to the young and impressionable.  I don't have to be an extremist to think that religion needs to be silenced in the future quite a bit more than it has in the past.  And I'm not going to reach any kind of agreement with religious folks to the contrary.  Why is a dialogue needed?  These types of matters can only ever be resolved by force. 
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