The Frustrations of Manhood

[Constance]

Okay: as a result of my first reply to https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,50597.0.html, Emme had suggested a Frustrations of Manhood thread. So, here's my take on the whole "manhood" thing.

I hope that this thread doesn't come across as a retalliation to Emme's thread, because it is not. I'm an androgyne, and the role of Manhood as I percieve its existence doesn't fit me.

1. Men are crass and inconsiderate; it's just their nature. I can certainly say that I have indeed met some men who fit this description; my father is a prime example. But, I would not say that this is a trait of maleness. Yet, I feel assailed by these very assertions. Women who have been unfortuate enough to have been on the receiving end of such inconsiderations and crassness will sometime assert that these things are just typical male behavior. Most men I know are not like this, however. I understand that it could be that I have been fortunate enough to have not encountered much in the way of these things. I just wish that men in general would not be labelled as crass and inconsiderate just because some (or possibly even most) men are. I also understand that there are those men who believe that it is acceptable and even encouraged to act in this way.

2. Successful men have their genitals to thank. I can't tell you the number of times I've been told that I owe my current job and salary to the fact that I am a man. Right. The work I've done over the last 17 years of course would not have anything to do with it. If I have all kinds of socio-economic power just because I'm a man, how come my family has to scrape to get by? I have worked to get where I am and without working harder, I cannot just be automatically uplifted due to my gonads.

3. A man's job is to provide for his family. I've been told by both men and women that I should not allow my wife to ever make more money than me. Why? My career goal is to be a house husband. This is seen as a lack of ambition. Yet any house wife will be able to tell anyone that "staying home" is not the same thing as "not working." There is more than enough work for me to do at home. I'd rather do that than go to work. But my wife is an ordained minister, and she makes less than half what I do. As being a televangelist isn't her style, it's highly unlikely that I'll be a house husband any time soon.

4. Men are strong, and crying is a sign of weakness. This is another myth that I've heard from both men and women. Such a display shows vulnerability. Yet, doesn't one have to be strong to admit publicly that one is vulnerable?

5. Men only crave sex; emotional attachment is not desired by them. Another myth. My father once told me that men don't need to be told they're loved; women need that. I have to dismiss that statement out of hand as some of the more grotesque nonsense I'd ever heard.

[NicholeW.]

Just gonna slip in for a sec, Shades.

What a really good idea and what a great post to begin the topic.

Nichole

[6thsomatic]

Woah, I can add to this XD

6: All men are competitive by nature. It seem that at most everything I do, if there is someone who can come out on top everyone wonders why I don't get into it. Its not that I'm not ambitious or don't want to do a good job, its that I don't see in competing over silly things. I'm pleased with doing a good job, and that should be enough.

and i guess this ties into

7: All men like sports. Couldn't be further from the truth. It completely ignores every academic and intellectual in the world who would put matters of the mind over matters in a stadium.

as well as this

8: Men are brutish and aggressive. Need I really say more? If all men were as neanderthalic as some would have you believe our world would have never progressed. Sadly I think things like the UFC only go to further this notion =/

[Kaelin]

Regarding wage disparity, most of it lies in the upper end.  What averages as a 23-33% disparity is in fact more like 10% for middle incomes, at least on an hourly basis.  The problem is that while women have moreso (although not entirely) been placed on an even playing field, they haven't been permitted to rise to the highest ranks (perhaps because of women not having sufficient time to filter through, but likely because cronyism and a lack of oversight are more notorious at this level).  Analogous consequences hold for "minorities."

Cronyism is worth a special mention, because it's very subtle (people may tend to trust people they can relate to, even if they are less skilled).  The (white Christian) men in power are less likely to relate with women/minorities because of their differing socialization.  However, it seems that (white Christian) men with different attitudes and expression would likely struggle in a comparable way as women/minorities to connect with those in power.

Regarding (white) male bashing, it's sort of "trendy" because of their collective reward/work ratio (presently and historically).  Still, women (and to a lesser extent other minorities) get beat on, too.  However, if you are a person who refrains from such attacks, it can be frustrating to repeatedly to hear about how bad your group is, especially when your own expression is the antithesis to the stereotypes.  When the generalizations are cliche, are from weak/nonexistent data, or are delivered in a hostile or one-sided way, it gets worse.

Ripping an individual is more reasonable since it allows a person to target particular characteristics of the person being spoken for.  When you start making generalizations for a group that is bound by something not of their choosing (such as gender or ethnicity), there is not really so much you can speak to without being well off the mark for many individuals, and one should be mindful of the consequences.  It's not about being "politically correct;" it's about not being an a-hole.

Alas, I'm probably preaching to the choir.

I'll list particular examples (in the spirit of the thread) when I have a little more time.

[Kinkly]

If any off these things were true than it woud be proof that I'm not realy a man I know, I'm not a man when people say things like this it just proves my point and these are reasons why I hate being around groups of just men

[Constance]

I once went to a men's spirituality retreat at a local retreat center. While the experience as a whole was positive, I felt out of place in the group of just men. And NONE of them were exhibiting the stereotypical male badness. On the contrary: they were all very polite and easy to get along with.

But, I just really felt out of place in this group of men.

[6thsomatic]

Heh, society would argue that any man willing to go to a "spirituality retreat" is not really a man anyways XD

Men don't need spirtuality! Men need sex and booze and violence! YEAH MANHOOD!

 

[Constance]

Heh, society would argue that any man willing to go to a "spirituality retreat" is not really a man anyways XD

Men don't need spirtuality! Men need sex and booze and violence! YEAH MANHOOD!

 

Well, I can agree with two of those three, unless Halo, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, and Quake II count as violence.

[6thsomatic]

I dont think so, others would disagree.

However, from those titles it sounds to me like you need to upgrade XD

[Constance]

Another thing that bugs me is that sexism towards males is perfectly acceptable. For instance, someone can post on an Internet message board that the "plural of man is boys" and no one bats an eye.

However, I feel that if I were to ask in the spirit of equality if that meant that the plural woman was girls, my comments would not be well received.

[Mina_Frostfall]

Is girl such a bad term though? I might just be me, but I think I'd rather be called a girl than a woman.

[Constance]

Is girl such a bad term though? I might just be me, but I think I'd rather be called a girl than a woman.

The answer to that question depends on whom you ask. There are those who will say to call a woman a girl is extremely offensive, as it is diminutive and does not connote the respect due to an adult. Likewise with calling a man a boy.

[Nicky]

I'm approaching this a little from the perspective of the frustrations I feel because they see me as a man. I'm not sure a man would see all of these as an issue.

Crappy range of clothing and it is accepted that men don't care
Assuming that you are gay because you don't dress manly enough
People assume you drink beer
People talk over your head to your partner about how your house is decorated, and about cooking for the family. Then when you tell them that you do all the cooking they sort of give you that 'does not compute' look.
People assume that your partner does most of the parenting
Taking your little kids shopping, to the pool or to school people look around for your kids mum, or react as if you are a potential pedophile.

[Constance]

I'm approaching this a little from the perspective of the frustrations I feel because they see me as a man. I'm not sure a man would see all of these as an issue.

Crappy range of clothing and it is accepted that men don't care
Assuming that you are gay because you don't dress manly enough
People assume you drink beer
People talk over your head to your partner about how your house is decorated, and about cooking for the family. Then when you tell them that you do all the cooking they sort of give you that 'does not compute' look.
People assume that your partner does most of the parenting
Taking your little kids shopping, to the pool or to school people look around for your kids mum, or react as if you are a potential pedophile.

Oh, yes, these definitely ring true.

While waiting to pick my daughter up at a bowling alley where she was attending a birthday party, a "concerned citizen" actually asked me if I was a pedophile. She also asked me to not be offended by the question.

[6thsomatic]

While waiting to pick my daughter up at a bowling alley where she was attending a birthday party, a "concerned citizen" actually asked me if I was a pedophile. She also asked me to not be offended by the question.

WHAT?!?

How in the hell could someone not be offended by that?

[Nicky]

"Well yes I am thanks for asking, do you have any young chilldren? I have candy"


I hate the feeling of people creating a space for me in the 'man club'. It makes me feel so uncomfortable.
I think I struggle with the feeling that you are constantly having to avoid physical conflict with other men. Like you can't look a guy in the eye for long on the street or it is considered a challenge. There are all these rules and behaviours to avoid conflicts in male society and I just want to say "hey, you don't need them with me, I'm not in direct competition with anyone". I hate how I find myself just doing and responding to these behaviours anyway.

[Eva Marie]

"Well yes I am thanks for asking, do you have any young chilldren? I have candy"


I hate the feeling of people creating a space for me in the 'man club'. It makes me feel so uncomfortable.
I think I struggle with the feeling that you are constantly having to avoid physical conflict with other men. Like you can't look a guy in the eye for long on the street or it is considered a challenge. There are all these rules and behaviours to avoid conflicts in male society and I just want to say "hey, you don't need them with me, I'm not in direct competition with anyone". I hate how I find myself just doing and responding to these behaviours anyway.

ah yes, the man club with its testosterone and one upmanship.

Just today I was in a meeting at work and once again I realized that my mixed male/female outlook just does not work in a "mans world". I had to shut up before I said something that I would really regret.

[tekla]

I frequently work shows where the band is way popular with junior high girls, which is a good thing.  Those girls by all the CDs, the posters, the shirts and all the rest, and its kind of a foundation of rock and roll and all that.  But we are on the lookout for that older guy who is there by themselves.  Just looks out of place, one thirty some/forty something guy (and not a hip poser, or journalist, or rock pond scum or something - they are easy to spot) hanging out in a room that has some 1-2,500 young girls in it.  So we watch them.  One of us will walk up to them - and me, I just don't look like I work there, I look like I live there - and ask them about being on "Dad Duty" that night taking the snowflakes to the big rock concert and all.  You can figure it out pretty quick.  I'm sure most parents are happy we do take the time and effort to notice that.

As for the 'boys' and 'girls' deal, depends on the context and who is saying it.  I know a lot of older women who refer to 'going out with the girls' and don't think its insulting.  And 'let's go boys' is pretty common where I work (even when some of the boys are, in fact, girls).

[Constance]

If the person at the bowling alley had asked me about being on "dad duty," I would not have been upset. But, she actually asked me if I was a "pedophile." That's the word she used.

[tekla]

A lack of tact to be sure * and what's that you were sayin' 'bout men being crass and inconsiderate??? *  but then again, she no doubt was not trained for that kind of tact either.  I mean we're only sort of checking the guy out, and making sure that he knows that we know that he is there.