Puddleglum's argument

[Aurelius]

After a very long and helpful debate in another subject in philosophy: "Religion as a mental disorder" This was my basic, bare conclusion why I believe in God in the first place. Just putting it up here for your thoughts.

"Which is precisely why I covered my flanks on this argument:

A) I am not certain, only pretty sure...both empirical and logical wind up going in circles.
B) I lean towards empirical to live daily life and in dealing with daily situations ie; common sense.
C) Logic is cool, but I won't follow it when it jumps off the bridge. Pure logic IS relativity. Logically, I should have killed myself. But I didn't.
D) I do believe in Truth, but that is a matter of faith. Everything else is relative. That Truth is an abstract idea, with no proof empirical or logical... has nothing to do with personal morals, values, etc or judging others. It only has to do with my place in the universe.

Which brings me to a point. No, I am not trying to pick on Lisagurl, with her view, but after arguing with her I have come up with this conclusion why I disagree; the reason I have to live part of my life in the abstract ie believe in God.

When people are put to the test, an extreme example would be the holocaust, the very few not being gassed outright and in concetration camp noticed something. People who believed in SOMETHING were the ones who tended to do better, and maybe survive longer. Not give up as easily. This is because they believed not just in God, but that there was a Supreme Good at work in the universe, and that no matter what happened to them that everything would be for that good. There was a spiritual bond that transcended them through adversity, and made it easier to bear. The ones who had weak belief or believed in nothing did not have this, and their minds and bodies, on average, gave up much sooner. "Give-up-itis" in the parliance of Vietnam POW's. No, this is not a 100% argument, only a broad one. Nor am I saying that non-believers are incapable of such strength. I am only illustrating a positive to belief v. non-belief in general terms, in which there is evidence.

Yes, I know this is an argument on Purpose. Some say there is purpose because we humans make up purpose. It cannot be proven one way or another. Belief that there is something better in the "heavens" does NOT mean we shouldn't work hard to make this world better (once again covering a flank), but if you ever read CS Lewis's argument for his belief, in the paraphrased words of dour Puddleglum under enchantment from an evil witch, trying to trick him (through relative logic) into believing his homeland was a delusion:

" "I can't say if Narnia is real, no I can't, but it is sure alot better than this horrible place. I'd rather live in that wonderful, happy delusion and know there is something better and good to look forward to than just this unhappy kingdom." "

I may not be right, there may be no God; but I stand with Puddleglum"

[Constance]

I learned early on in my experience at this forum that one of the best ways to be treated poorly was to admit to being a theist. I refrained from replying to the religion as a mental disorder thread for that very reason. It seems there are those here who have no qualms about insulting theists.

I am a polytheist who follows a Buddhist-Christian-Pagan path. I make no factual claims for the existence of my gods, though there are those here who have made factual claims that my gods could not possibly exist. And, of course, those who made those statements (of course) failed to provide any proof or evidence. Compelling arguments alone do not make facts.

I completely acknowledge that the atheists might be right; an acknowledgment that has never been returned by atheists, here or otherwise. Not that it is deserved, but it would be nice for folks to actually admit that they don't really know one way or the other if any sort of Divine might exist.

I believe in my gods and goddesses. If they don't exist, I will loose nothing. Sure, there won't be an afterlife, but I won't know that when it happens, will I. I guess I'm somewhat taken with Pascals' Wager in that regard.

If atheists can provide 100% incontrivertible proof, I'll yield. It won't change how I practice my religion, which is to say my way of life. It would only change details of worship.

[Aurelius]

Amen.
Facts add up to evidence, but all the evidence in the world does not equal truth.

[pennyjane]

yes, there are some in this forum who just hate christians...but, of course, they are goddesses themselves so it's the competition that they can't take.

i believe in God because i saw Jesus one time.  i tried one time to get my intelligence to lead me there, but...fell way short.  love cs lewis, but for the most part he's way over my head.

i saw Jesus...mountaintop thing.....for awhile i thought i saw him with my eyes....really!  i thought i saw the figure of a man sitting there talking with my mother-in-law as she lay dying.  but then when i tried to reproduce the picture in my mind...it was blank.  all i saw was overpowering love.  still don't know what it looks like but He called Himself Jesus.  good enough for me and glad of it.

God bless us all with...

[Constance]

yes, there are some in this forum who just hate christians

The hate extends to more than just Christians, which is why I said "theists." But, yes, it does seem an awful lot like hate.

If someone wants to tell me why they don't believe in any deities, that's fine with me. I won't fault them for their beliefs or opinions. I'll only fault someone for expressing those beliefs and opinions in a way that seems (to me) to be hateful and condescending.

At the same time, If I were a better Buddhist, Christian, and/or Pagan, I would not be faulting them at all. To do so goes against the Bodhisattva vow, the Golden Rule, and the Wiccan Rede.

Though I have not yet formally taken the Boddhisattva vow, I feel it still applies to me as a person with a Buddhist practice. Likewise, I'm not truly Wiccan. My Pagan practice is an amalgamation of Wicca and Asatru. Still, it seems that if I can avoid harming others even in self-defense, I should be trying to do that.

[pennyjane]

hi shades.  yes, i think you are right.  it's that "goddess" thing anyway you look at it.  if you believe yourself to be god, then of course all other gods are a threat to you personally.  i think we christians take the biggest hit because of our numbers.  there are a bunch of us, and just like every other group we have our fair share of not-so-christian like people who do alot of real harm in the world.  we wield alot of power in this society.  power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

we are a long way from perfect, even good a lot of times...but there are those among us who try, who realize we aren't god, just deaf, dumb and blind followers of God.

but yes, we are treated by the other gods just the same way as they rail against us treating them.  the difference between us and many of them is that when we look thru the pews on sunday we know that every seat is occupied by a sinner and a hipocrit...hope i spelled that right...bad spelling isn't acceptable from christians, i'll surely be admonished...but...like i said, we know it about ourselves...we work on it all the time, trying to mitigate the damage we allow it to do to us.  gods, on the other hand, don't recognize it in themselves, they are gods, not sinners, not hipocrits...gods, dieties...supernatural and superperfect.

i had one of these goddesses lecture me yesterday on humility.  i'm sorry, that just breaks me up....a self described "goddess" telling someone they need to learn some humility.  lol, irony on a godscale i guess.  but, i guess that's just the way they are.

now, i don't understand at all how you can combine all these different dogmas and all, that's just me....as i said, cs lewis is over my head.  but the fact that you have the good sense to recognize that there is a power greater then yourself is about all i can get my mind wrapped around.  that i respect.  i've said before that i think God is awful big....and awful smart....i think He speaks thousands and thousands of languages.  i think He's so big that He can talk to anybody perfectly in any language or any combination of languages with all their dialects and subleties that he wants to...and He does.  He speaks a very simple language to me and very complex and compound languages to some others.  but, if one is listening they will hear Him speak.

so, may He bless you with...