Zelda Fans Maybe?

[Chaos_Dagger]

Yay for Zelda, YAY for everyone's posts! Boo to WindWaker still!

Sorry but although you make SOME valid points about Wind Waker, the story still sucked major Furry Ganon Nuts. I mean, the story had way too many plot holes to make any sense at all (and you can't forget that Spirit Tracks has to be one of the Stupidest Concepts anyone's ever seen!)

The game took way too long to get anywhere important, the characters looked like they were high on something. Tell me, if the world flooded, what happened to the Zora's?  Wouldn't it make sense that if the world was flooded the Zora's would still be alive? The only Zora's that seemed to be in there, were more like the evil "River Zoras" of old.  If the islands are all the tops of the lands highest mountains, then wouldn't it make sense that the Gorons (who lived on the mountains all along) would still be alive? Yet we only see them in Phantom Hourglass which takes place in a dream world WAY too similar to Link's Awakening (Damn straight that dude looked like the windfish!).  How did the Deku Tree uproot its self and climb a mountain?  Why did the Kokiri turn into little tree people, yet the sage's spirit still looks like Kokiri.  Speaking of which, the sages spirits were obviously descendants of both Saria and Ruto.  How though, could Saria have children?  And Honestly.... the King of Hyrule turned into a boat?

I will give the games props for it's combat system, and being the only game where Link kills a human.  On that not however, why was there only Ganondorf, and no Ganon?

[TooManyToasters]

Wind Waker's universe wasn't very consistent with the rest of the Zelda games, true, but it was different. The sailing wasn't the greatest, but I found the exploration more fun than in any other Zelda game. The dungeons were more well-designed as well. Artistically, WW was a bit bleh, but it was fun. That's why it's my favourite Zelda yet.

[MasterAsh]

Wind Waker's universe wasn't very consistent with the rest of the Zelda games, true, but it was different. The sailing wasn't the greatest, but I found the exploration more fun than in any other Zelda game. The dungeons were more well-designed as well. Artistically, WW was a bit bleh, but it was fun. That's why it's my favourite Zelda yet.

Hit the nail on the head for me. When I mentioned earlier how games in the series manage to be new without being too different, WW did lack a lot of new. I won't lie: When I first played the demo, I was a bit let down that the controls and interface were identical to OoT/MM. But once I got to play through the game, I wound up satisfied nonetheless.

Also, I stumbled upon some WW manga. . .Funny stuff. It follows the story of the game, but does so in little skit-like sequences. Hadn't read many, but I love the one where Link's sneaking up on a pig, then remembers getting soup from his grandmother. The resulting thoughts of the "item get" sound scare the pig off. 

Side notes: I thought near the end of the game it was heavily implied the civilized Zoras evolved into the bird race. The spirits were just that: spirits. Essences. Core beings to the world which take many forms throughout the world's history. Unlike Zelda, Link, and Ganon, though, the forms taken are very different from their core beings. As far as the Deku Tree. . .seeds? The young tree in OoT may have had it's own personality, but who's to say the memories of the previous tree didn't carry over?

And the King of Hyrule. . .Thought that was made very clear the boat was merely a vessel for his consciousness.

The main point being we're to understand a long passage of time has occurred in this game's world. More than enough time for races to evolve, adapt, change, etc. in response to the flood. The only thing I can't explain is Ganondorf: the story makes clear he is indeed the same Ganon (or much rather the same evil) from the legend. I suppose his powers diminished.

[Walter]

Yay for Zelda, YAY for everyone's posts! Boo to WindWaker still!
the story still sucked major Furry Ganon Nuts.

I lol'd XDD

[Chaos_Dagger]

I hate everyone who says that the bird race were what the Zora evolved into. It's a load of bull.  Evolution is about adapting to be able to better survive in one's environment.  If a race of fish people, who live in water, can breathe in water, and move perfectly in water's world suddenly got FLOODED the only necessary evolution would possibly be switching from fresh to salt water.  Being unable to breathe in water, and the only means of travel by leg or wing in a world where the vast majority of substance is WATER is a disadvantage, not an advantage. Therefore, the Zora's could not possibly evolve into bird people, period.

[Ani]

i thot these games were about mindless entertainment and escapism.  now you're telling me there's supposed to be a coherent story that i'm supposed to pay attention to.

i'm so ashamed of myself.

hmm, maybe it's time to pull out that viewtiful joe i never finished, i know there's no story there!

or do i

[TooManyToasters]

What could have possibly given you the impression that Zelda games have no plot? Or are you talking about games in general?

[Ani]

i was being facetious.  i've never bothered to look for inconsistencies from release to release in the zelda (or any other) games, i'm in it for the mindless entertainment, i don't want to analyze it and figure out if zorans can or should evolve into phazon shriekbats.  give me a sword, or a walking bomb or a plasma beam and i'll take it from there. hopefully the game will creep me out or scare the snot out of me occasionally.

i can see how others would want to go into deep analysis, but it's not for me

[Chaos_Dagger]

I normally do not go into "deep analysis" of any game.  As long as the story is captivating and fun, that's good enough for me.  However, being labeled as a "Zelda" I had high expectations for Windwaker despite it's retarded appearance.  Since the Zelda games are never released in proper order, the inconsistencies wouldn't have made much of a difference.  However, Myiamoto himself screwed that up.  By stating even before the game was released that "This game takes place several hundred years after Ocarina of Time!"  With that single statement, he was finally giving us a proper time line, and stating that this world IS the Ocarina of Time Hyrule.  As such it would be expected to have been properly connected with the previous Zelda game.

All the story told us, was that Hyrule was flooded after Link didn't return.  Why did Link leave? Why didn't he return?  Well that explanation we could at least hope for in a new game.  It's to be believed, as per previous statements from Mr. Miyamoto himself that all Links up until this point were descendants of the "original" Link.  However during the course of Windwaker it is revealed that that Link, is in NO WAY related to any of the previous Links.  He's just some random kid, who even hated wearing Link's clothing!  Furthermore, nothing else in the story made any coherent sense.  We have never got confirmation on what happened to the Zoras, and anyone who says they evolved into the bird people with no proof other than the fact their mountain happens to have the same symbol as the water temple from Ocarina pisses me off!  It's not a plausible outcome, and even if Miyamoto himself says it, I'll be pissed off at him too.

I'm just happy it appears that Toon Link will be restricted to the DS, while Wii will keep the Twilight Princess art style.  It's sad that once Spirit Tracks is released (if it hasn't been already) that I will have to stop saying "I've owned and played every Zelda game ever released," but at least I can switch it to "I've owned and played every good Zelda game ever released."  Windwaker was an okay game in it's own right, it just did not sit well as a "Zelda" game.  Nintendo was simply using a classic game title to entice people to buy a new style of game visuals that they weren't sure people would want.  Sadly it worked for most people, the only reason I bought Windwaker though was that if I pre-ordered I could get Ocarina of Time: Master's Quest.

[MasterAsh]

I hate everyone who says that the bird race were what the Zora evolved into. It's a load of bull.  Evolution is about adapting to be able to better survive in one's environment.  If a race of fish people, who live in water, can breathe in water, and move perfectly in water's world suddenly got FLOODED the only necessary evolution would possibly be switching from fresh to salt water.  Being unable to breathe in water, and the only means of travel by leg or wing in a world where the vast majority of substance is WATER is a disadvantage, not an advantage. Therefore, the Zora's could not possibly evolve into bird people, period.

Unless their sole purpose in even existing as a water-dwelling species to begin with was to avoid other sentient species. The Zoras have always struck me at least as being the most xenophobic civilization in the Zelda universe. With the world flooded and. . ."humans" (for lack of a better term) taking to the sea like fish, what better way to get away from them than to take to the air?

The idea of the Zora's potential evolution into the birds, however, most follows the concept of these eternal forces in the world finding new homes. "Evolution" in this case doesn't imply a strict biological advantage to survival as much as a spiritual shift in perceivable representation while adhering to a core ideology. "Evolution" is a lot less of a mouthful than all of that, though. 

I would like to point out: "Hate" is an awfully strong word to describe how you feel towards someone disagreeing with you on a matter of opinion regarding the interpretation of entertainment. From the your choices of words, phrases, and overall tone of your last few posts, it seems to me you either did not start this thread in the interest of hearing opinions about the franchise different than your own or did not start this thread expecting them. As such, I will not be revisiting this thread.

[Chaos_Dagger]

  Your right I did not start this thread about any of the previous games, I started it in regards to the new game coming out and opinions on the released artwork thereof.  In my personal opinion there are two types of Zelda fans. The new ones (young kids) brought in by Windwaker, who's parents won't allow them to play any of the good ones because the games are mature.  This group also involves the ingrates who believe the Windwaker style was more enjoyable then the Twilight Princess style and thus giving up on the best game in the world Ocarina of Time.  Secondly, the core Zelda fans.  The true fans who were either brought in by Ocarina of Time, or the Original which was coincidentally released the same year I was born.

  Mr. Myiamoto knows this as well, and as such it makes sense why it seems he has now restricted the Windwaker style to the handhelds.  The rebuttal about the spiritual evolution due to xenophobia is sort of a moot point, and collapses its self.  If it was turly due to xenophobia, then once again, evolving into a bird race to live on an island where many people can easily get to by boat (not to mention being the mail carriers) makes no sense at all.  It would then make further sense to stay as fish people where they could live deep beneath the ocean (ala Oracle of Time) where no one can get to. Q.E.D. the rebuttal only serves to strengthen my own opinion.

  Anyway could we please get back on topic about the newest Zelda game coming out please? Should I re-post the link to the picture?