This Could Be A Real Problem!

[Julie Marie]

A TS friend who recently went to Montreal for GRS told me yesterday that the US passed a law that says if you didn't have your surgery by a doctor licensed in the US you will not be allowed to change your gender on your birth certificate! Apparently that law went into effect in 2005. I told her I have never heard of this. Brassard was my choice for GRS but this could put a serious damper on that choice if this is true. There's no way I will go through all that only to find I can't change that M to an F.

Has anyone else heard of this or been affected by it?

[Sarah Louise]

Sorry, I have never heard of that law.  Where did you (or your friend) come across that?

It does not sound real to me, but you never know.  As for me, no matter where I have surgery, my home state of Ohio will never change the gender marker on my birth certificate, they will change the name, but that is all.

Sarah L.

[Sandi]

Someone is feeding you a false rumor.

First this is an area that would be a state issue, and you mentioned a US law. The Federal government has no such legislative jurisdiction. Now in any individual state this could be a possibility.

Gender change laws, name change laws, and drivers license change, etc are all set separately in and by each state.


Sandi

[Julie Marie]

I may have misunderstood the level the law was at. We were on cell phones and I always have a hard time hearing her as it's constantly breaking up. So she may have said state but it seemed she was saying this was nationwide which means all the states would have had to sign on. But yes, I agree, this should be one of those things the state controls.

We both live in Illinois. I know she said this change went into effect in 2005. She has been unable to change the gender on her birth certificate because of it. She has been in contact with Brassard and is requesting he gets licensed in Michigan because that's the easiest place to be licensed. If he does that then Illinois will make the change. Those things I know are accurate.

[Sandi]

We both live in Illinois. I know she said this change went into effect in 2005. She has been unable to change the gender on her birth certificate because of it. She has been in contact with Brassard and is requesting he gets licensed in Michigan because that's the easiest place to be licensed. If he does that then Illinois will make the change. Those things I know are accurate.

Ok, that makes more sense. Source right here (near the bottom of the page).

• Illinois state law
  
  For a complete understanding of the law see Chapter 735 of the Illinois Compiled Statutes, Section 5/21-101 et seq. or consult an attorney.
  
      http://www.legis.state.il.us/legislation/ilcs/ch735/ch735act5articles/ch735act5Sub103.htm
  
  Please note that some states are now requiring those who have reassignment procedures outside the country to have these procedures confirmed by US physician. For example, here is the revised 2005 Illinois requirement: [emphasis added]
  
  http://www.idph.state.il.us/vitalrecords/gender.htm
  
  In Illinois the surgeon who performed the surgery is the only one who can fill out the affidavit and must be licensed in the U.S.
  
  Some have suggested that if you have the procedures done outside the country, you might try having an exam by a US physician who will give you a notarized letter confirming the procedures have been completed. It is not clear if this workaround will work, though.

[Julie Marie]

That is one stupid law! Is there something secretly hidden in the surgery only the surgeon doing the procedure would know? No! Any gynecologist can give you an exam and say, "This patient's genitals are of the _____ gender". Sometimes I have to shake my head and ask why do we elect people who create laws like this?

Thanks Sandi for the links,

[Bob]

Ok, that makes more sense. Source right here (near the bottom of the page).

• Illinois state law
  
  For a complete understanding of the law see Chapter 735 of the Illinois Compiled Statutes, Section 5/21-101 et seq. or consult an attorney.
  
      http://www.legis.state.il.us/legislation/ilcs/ch735/ch735act5articles/ch735act5Sub103.htm
  
  Please note that some states are now requiring those who have reassignment procedures outside the country to have these procedures confirmed by US physician. For example, here is the revised 2005 Illinois requirement: [emphasis added]
  
  http://www.idph.state.il.us/vitalrecords/gender.htm
  
  In Illinois the surgeon who performed the surgery is the only one who can fill out the affidavit and must be licensed in the U.S.
  
  Some have suggested that if you have the procedures done outside the country, you might try having an exam by a US physician who will give you a notarized letter confirming the procedures have been completed. It is not clear if this workaround will work, though.

I would think that would be the way to go. just have a Physician sign a paper saying the work has indeed been done , have it noterized and then take it to the county records office or where ever to have the M changed to an F or vice versa... other wize they will have hundreds of people incorectly labled and thats not good for politics!
if that doesn't work then its time to get on the phone and start calling to find out what has to be done , chances are the people down at the records office are just being good little solgers and they have no idea how to think on their own ! some one that is their boss has to tell them what they must do...before they can do it .... and that may not have happened yet . 
in anotherwords you have to do some leg work and show them how to do their job !
....at least thats how things work in the county we live in ! its plane silly !
....
my 2 coppers !
Bob.......

[Julie Marie]

I would think that would be the way to go. just have a Physician sign a paper saying the work has indeed been done

The problem in Illinois is they require the physician who did the surgery to sign the affidavit. This is taken from the Illinois Vital Records website:
Gender Reassignment

Gender reassignment can be reflected on a birth record after the reassignment surgery has been completed. When the following documentation has been received, a new birth record is prepared.

The "Affidavit for a New Birth Certificate After Completion of Gender Reassignment Surgery" is to be completed by the applicant if of legal age or the parent or guardian if not of legal age. This form must be completed in its entirety and notarized.

The "Affidavit by Physician After the Completion of Gender Reassignment" must be completed by the physician that performed the surgery. This form must be completed in its entirety and notarized. This physician must be licensed to practice within the United States.

[cindianna_jones]

I have left my birth certificate alone.  It has the old name and sex.  There is logic in my reasoning.

The SSA sends me a statement once a year. But when I try to get my information from the website, it can not be found.  It seems as though ole David is still on their books somewhere.

With my original birth certificate, I'll be able to show the paper trail on the golden day I officially "retire".

I have all my other paperwork.  You don't need a birth certificatte for anything except a passport as far as I know.  And the old one will work there if you have your other paperwork in order.

Now, as I always say, my opinion is free and worth every penny.

[tinkerbell]

Hi Julie:

I don't think there's such a law; do you happen to know where this friend of yours obtained this information from?

I mean surgery is surgery whether you have it here in America, Canada, Thailand, saturn or the andromeda.   


tinkerbell 



Posted at: July 30, 2006, 11:26:14 PM

my opinion is free and worth every penny.

Of course it is...I was beginning to miss these words...keep saying them please..

[Hazumu]

<grr><sigh>

I feel a certain amount of discrimination and intolerance from that ruling.  Right now, whatever the intent was when they created it, it has the effect of being a roadblock in changing your legal gender.  And, what do they do for FtM?  Many don't get bottom surgery because it's at least four times as expensive as MtF surgery, doesn't 'work', and doesn't look convincing.  Do you absolutely have to have phalloplasty to get the coveted M on your most precious documents?  Will the real result be that Illinois ends up having very few transsexuals in it because the state won't let them get their surgeries done outside the US?

<rant, rant>

Karen

[Bob]

I agree Karen !
that is in my mind the case here !  their discurrageing transexuals from living in that state period .... and thats probly their intent ! Grrrrrr!
I would procede to get the "Document "that they have to have... have it filled out and signed and recorded by the Doctor who did the surgery...  then have an exam by a local doctor and have him state that its indeed been done and then present the bundle to the people if that doesn't work then takeing them to court is the only other alternitive and any lawyer would grab that case as its easy to win ! (in my opinion!)

people will unfortionately be people !  some times you can't live with'em and ya can't live without'em !

that is a very Mean and unright law and should be changed !

....
Bob...

[Buffy]

After reading these post and all the confusion........

                         I am glad I am English..

Thank God for the UK Gender Recognition Act 2004 (GRA)...  I changed my Birth Certificate end 2005 with two letters from my Physciatrist and Doctor (and paid $200 US) for the privledge.

The Gender Reassignment Regulations 1999 gave me time off from work for medical requirement (with pay) and also laid  out use of restrooms, facilities and anti-discrimination requirements (hey they couldn't fire me for transitioning) and was added as an addendum to the Sex Discrimination Act 1974, specifically to cover transsexuals.

Prior to that I changed my name, passport, driving licence in two weeks (at little cost) and all my certificates, they even have specially trained people to go through applications. My Personal information is now protected under the Freedom Of Information Act 2000 and under the GRA 2004, I have to be consulted and my agreement given to disclose any of my previous history.

For a Country which is supposedly the human rights leader in the Western World.... the US sure has a long way to go to match Europe with it's legislation on Transsexuals.

Why is there such a big difference State to State....?, Does the US not have uniform legislation on minority groups?

Buffy

[LostInTime]

For those living in the US, please note that the Real ID Act (signed in 2005, goes into effect 2008) gives the Department of Homeland Security the absolute last word on what makes valid, legal ID within the United States.  If states fail to comply with the changes, their IDs will no longer be accepted on the federal level.  It is not beyond the realm of possibility (and is considered to be a very strong possibility) that the DHS will throw up roadblocks to change both social security and birth certificates. 

Of course this is to fight terrorists who use lax state procedures to obtain what appears to be legal identification within the country.

Locally, if my drivers license expires before I renew it, a birth certificate is one of the documents that I have to present in order to have a new one issued.  However, if renewed in time then I just need my social security card.

Due to all of this, TS individuals will probably want to work towards changing all of their documentation as you may not be able to do so as completely as one can do now.

Also remember you will need passports to travel out of the country, even if driving into Mexico or Canada.  I believe that kicks in next year.

[stephanie_craxford]

Good points Cindi.  I have considered changing my Birth certificate, but it looks like it will be more trouble than its worth, as I would have to make applications in England

Also remember you will need passports to travel out of the country, even if driving into Mexico or Canada.  I believe that kicks in next year.

I believe that Canada has protested this and the requirement is now on hold until something agreeable to both sides is formulated.

Steph

[Kim]

I just researched this passport concern and it's been been put on hold until Jan 1,2008 instead of 2007. The rational is as Steph stated to give time to find a more workable solution. They are still debating it 

[Hazumu]

I just researched this passport concern and it's been been put on hold until Jan 1,2008 instead of 2007. The rational is as Steph stated to give time to find a more workable solution. They are still debating it 

Under ideal circumstances, I'd have the surgery before that date.  But when you need the ideal to happen, it gets stage fright.

Last week at work, I got to attend an orientation course on the Middle East.  One of the sections talked about the current religious/political climate in several countries.  The bottom line is that the majority of folks in the different countries DON'T want their societies transformed into restrictive, religious-based theocracies.  Saudi Arabia is currently the most strict on that sense, with religious police that have the power to punish you on the spot for any infraction of the rules of Allah.  And the fundamentalist militants in the other countries seem to be working towards that model only on steroids.

Ordinary people in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, etc., don't want that, but are too busy just trying to get on with their lives to do much to stop it.  And besides, it's always the other guy (or girl) who 'gets it.'

I was struck by the parallels to U.S. society.  Of course, we'd NEVER go that far.  Or would we?

I'm becoming more activist.  It's nunna' their damned business that I broke their gender rules.  and keeping my official documents with M(ale) is only a cue to the bullies out there that they can **** with me with impunity.

'Way back when I was in the Marine Corps and in tech school, there was a young member of the permanent party where I was going to school.  (For the record, I was in the air wing, a very sane part of the Corps, and we were learning how to work with aviation ordnance at the school in the base weapons magazine area, and he was part of the schoolhouse staff.)

This member, it turned out, was gay.  He also had very poor impulse control, and, while drunk one night, er-- 'violated' his roommate while he slept.  The incident got around.  Fast.

The next morning, the head instructor informed the class about the incident.  We were NOT to take any retribution, whatsoever.  This was not a person to be despised, but to be pitied because he could not control these urges.  I was impressed with the official tolerance that was being displayed...

Then the instructor launched into 5 minutes of f***** jokes.

The message was clear, it was STILL okay to hate the little c.........

Our community needs rules with teeth, not ambiguity that is tacit approval for harassment by so-called public servants.

I'll put a bookmark in my rant with a quotation from Anthony Burgess' book, A Clockwork Orange:

"So, what's it going to be then, eh?"

Karen

[Melissa]

I have heard of this law on another forum.  Somebody had gone to thailand and already had the surgery and then found out about this law.  Many options were discussed for remedying the situation, but no solutions were found.  The premise is that they want an afidavit signed by a US surgeon that says that the US surgeon was the one who performed the operation.  An inspection and signing by the US surgeon was NOT good enough.  According to Illinois, the only acceptable option to them was to get the surgery again (which we all know is impossible) in the US and have it signed.  If changing your birth certificate is important to you (if you plan on deep stealth), then I would recommend having your surgery in the US.  Otherwise, I wouldn't recommend changing your birth certificate if your choice of surgeon is more important.

Melissa

[umop ap!sdn]

their discurrageing transexuals from living in that state period ....

Technically, they're discouraging us from being born there. I'm fortunate to have been born in a state that will change both name and sex, but it's unfair that some states won't change both. I wanna tell them it's not like we had a choice. 

[Bob]

Good point  "Upside down" Julie
perhaps You should tell them ...perhaps we all should ! they need to be educated!

Bob.......