Sheep alarm! These stupid shrinks are driving me nuts!

[Fencesitter]

Heya folks,

The last couple of days I went a lot through literature available online, especially German-speaking literature, but English-speaking as well. Wanna be prepared for the exams and not mess them up. Topic: transsexuality. My aim: gathering info how not to ruin my approval certificates to get the "§%$§§ titts off. And knwo whatever might be a psycological "contra-indication".

Well, yeah, my research made me scream out loud with horror! The 60ies and 70ies stuff was almost completely unusuable as you could read between the lines how our folks had to LIE to get what they needed, e. g.: FTMs are always into women, no BDSM reported from either fraction though lots of us are into it, and no MTF was into girls, of course. Lala. Well and lots of demeaning descriptions for us, we're not just bonkers for being transsexual, but bonkers in general otherwise we wouldn't be transsexual, ya know?

The 80ies stuff is still bad and transphobic as hell, but at least they start to find  out that there's various kind of us and that, yes, we lied because of the gatekeeper function of the therapists/psychiatrists etc. I mean you needn't be a rocket scientist to know that if you have a bunch of people on the one side who desperately want X and a few other people on the other side who say you'll get X if you're so-and-so... then people tend to comply and try to lie and deliver whatever is needed. That was really an epic fail from the psych* community, to need so much time to find this out. The kind of people you might expect to be most aware of the awkward situation there. And the so-called specialists who still have the last word to tell us who we are.

The 90ies and 00's stuff gets kind of better, but they still rely on the old sources. E. g. "in former decades, FTM's were all into women, and this has varied now, we don't know why... society has become more acceptant of bi- and homosexuality? Or maybe they were not all honest to us?" Hey, wake up, shrinks! We just DARE tell you the truth now. And no, the statistics you get now are still not reliable, as lots of our folks still tend to lie out of fear. As the situation has remained the same, you have the power, and we have to please you, though it's less extreme now.

Yeah, and in lots of these papers, FTMS's are bluntly referred to as "females" or "women", and MTFs as "male" or "men". Even in recent publications. Thank you very much. Is it SO difficult for you to find at least a compromise term such as FTM/MTF? I mean, you know that we hate being referred to with our birth pronouns etc., that's part of what transsexuality is about. If you know it and still do it in written stuff, it tells a lot about your misrespect. ->-bleeped-<- YOU, and I hope you won't ever find any other objects pleasing to take part in your studies. Earn our respect first, then we may comply (unless we're forced to as you're the gatekeeper, but then I suggest to anyone to ruin the study by lying deliberately (and inform the investigator anonymously, but without going into deatil where you lied, of course).  Such people do not deserve to get decent study results.

But the worst thing was the "Real-life experience" in German literature. Almost each of our coryphees insists on a one-year real life test before hormones, even in recent literature. Though this is pointless for those people who don't pass before hormones but pass after a while, unless they want to deal with a "->-bleeped-<- test". And almost each of our trans coryphees in the psych* community justifies this,  with "it's written in the German SoC and those are authorities so we have to rely to them blindly and without thinking" which drives me nuts as we're not living in the Third Reich any more so people are allowed to think for themselves *WOW*, and also: "You can only know if you can live your new gender if you've tried it without hormones for one year". This just doesn't work for lots of people, but they force us ALL to go through this. And I hate this sheepish stupidity. We all know that a real-life-test under this conditions causes unnecessary trouble and even deaths by suicide or harrassment. But they insist on it. So many people lie to them. They have to show enough relief to enforce that the "gender identity" diagnosis is right, but not too much relief, so that they don't get the hormones denied.

Seems like the Germans have not learned anything in terms of "thinking independently from authorities" since they ran into WWII. I'm getting polemic here, but it really doesn't make me wonder why Hitler could have such a success with this people. Most Germans STILL are sheep. I hate that, and have to deal with this ->-bleeped-<- day by day. And I read that again this week-end in what the German coryphees wrote. It's one of the reasons why I go on living here (cause Germany and the Germans are nice in many ways), but don't adopt the nationality (sorry I just can't, cannot identify with this mentality). Sorry for my ranting here.

These shrinks are so biased it makes me vomit. Honestly, how can I ever trust a German psychotherapist again after reading so much ->-bleeped-<- from the country I live in? Even if I desperately need therapy? And knowing even our coryphees write bull->-bleeped-<- and have the soul of a sheep ("a sheep in a man's body"... hm.... )?

[Renate]

Mmm, that's a good rant, especially regarding therapy in the 70's.

(Umm, what's "coryphees"?)

[spacial]

Definately a good rant.

Really enjoyed reading it.

Best of luck in your exams.

[Fencesitter]

coryphees, just found out this word does not exist in english. It's an expert, but a very renowned and famous one among his peers. One of the leaders of the field of his/her expertise.

May I go on ranting? Sorry for another long posting, but I really need to vent.

Let me add that some shrinks in Germany give you a free pass for hormones after half a year of real-life test, and a very few do it even after 3 months. But usually, they insist on you living the "new gender role" everywhere to see whether "the new genderrole is liveable for you", especially at work. And then they wonder why some of us get kicked out. (We have laws protecting trans people here, but you can always find something else.) Brillant. Plus you need 2 papers here to get an okay for the operations, and many of the gatekeepers are reluctant to give you an okay if you did not observe the "one year without hormones real life test". Depending on the shrink, it may even be dangerous to do epilation before the diagnosis is approved, as you're doing permanent changes of your body which may influence your urge to get hormones + operations (WTF?). So some people just do it in secret.

Our German so-called Standards of Care request 1 1/2 year of psychotherapy, the main topic there has to be sorting out our experience during the real life test with the shrink. Some shrinks know how stupid a non-hormonal real life test is in many cases, and just don't address the topic much during therapy, maybe 2 minutes in total. They won't tell you that you can lie to them about it, but it is clear that you can and that they let you.

Some of the German so-called experts on transsexuality even LIE or are incopetent in that in their recent publications, they pretend that the international Standards of Care also request 1 year real life test without hormones though this has changed a long time ago. And this is their justification for going on insisting on the "->-bleeped-<- test". I don't know if they just don't inform themselves or if they deliberately ignore what has changed, or if they're just too ashamed to confess that they requested bull->-bleeped-<- all the time. I mean, there's lots of trans people who tell them before that they don't want to make a one-year "->-bleeped-<- test" and tell them about the problems they get during this year and that it won't get better without hormones. (But you need to show relief during this year compared to beforehand according to the German SoC, otherwise - no hormones!) So it's not like it's a little detail you could easily miss as a "top expert".

Regarding the German SoC, you can divide the trans people here into 4 categories.

1. - Those for whom the German SoC happen to be the right thing in their individual situation and who embrace them (but don't necessarily agree that they are right for everybody).

2. - Those for whom the German SoC happen to be counter-productive but who follow them naively, as, you know, they were made by experts and experts know what's best for us. Those are the ones who often get into hella lot of trouble and whose transition is very difficult. They tend to rush into the real life test without preparing themselves long enough before, as you only get hormones after starting the real life test, and as they are in a hurry of getting the hormones. They out themselves at work and ask people to call them by their new name, pronouns and dressing in target gender too early as they HAVE TO. If e. g. they find out transition is not the right thing for them for whatever reason, damage has already been done at work and they may even be too ashamed to admit that they were wrong and go back.

3. - Those for whom the German SoC happen to be counter-productive and who lie to the shrinks. They lie about the pre-hormonal real life test, take hormones in secret, do epilations in secret etc. They also take care to tell the shrinks exactly the right things and lie about others in order to not jeopardize their okay. Don't ask me what a farce the obligational 1 1/2 years of psychotherapy becomes in these cases.

4. - Those for whom the German SoC happen to be counter-productive and who don't get the care they need for these reasons, they bypass the system in other ways or despair and risk killing themselves.

Yes, officially the German SoC are just guidelines. However, you really get into trouble if you get too far from the prescribed route as many shrinks and our health assurances regard them as something as infaillable as the Ten Commandments. Problem is, Germans tend to have trouble with the concept of something which is a guideline to adapt individually, and not an order to follow blindly.

[Summerfall]

 I sympathize very much with your position and having to deal with the German standards of "care". When I lived in Germany I saw a psychotherapist about being transgendered, and I was very eager to begin treatments. It was there that I learned that it would require the year long test, and that in his opinion, it was usually the individuals who are eager and want to start quickly that do not do well in the end. Well of course they wouldn't appear to do well in such a system. They would fall in one of the other categories that you described. But here I am, quite some years later, with all the same desires, and doing very well by transitioning at a more reasonable pace. I regret that I hit that roadbump and couldn't find quality care, something which contributed to a loss of valuable time for my transition.

[Fencesitter]

I sympathize very much with your position and having to deal with the German standards of "care". When I lived in Germany I saw a psychotherapist about being transgendered, and I was very eager to begin treatments. It was there that I learned that it would require the year long test, and that in his opinion, it was usually the individuals who are eager and want to start quickly that do not do well in the end. Well of course they wouldn't appear to do well in such a system. They would fall in one of the other categories that you described.

Sorry for you having had to deal with the German SoC. They're a pain in the a**. Did the sadistic "->-bleeped-<- test" year make you shun away from transition, or was it something else?

And I agree with you, the German system is awful for impatient transitioners. Well, in general, I think it is always good not to rush through with life-changing decisions such as marriage, emigration, transition etc. But people are individuals, and in some cases, quick changes are the right choice. And I think it's cruel to force them to go full time for one year (or be it just half a year) without giving hormones, and utterly stupid from the shrinks to conflate a "->-bleeped-<- test" with the "gender role in the target gender" diagnostic and use the outcomes of that test for deciding on whether or not to give hormones. This is where the impatient and honest ones tend to get trapped in the German system. Your real life test does not work well but you don't give up and still want hormones? Just add another year of living like that and try to convince the shrink afterwards that things are fine now (but not too fine, you still need to suffer but not too much) and hope that you get the indication then.

But here I am, quite some years later, with all the same desires, and doing very well by transitioning at a more reasonable pace. I regret that I hit that roadbump and couldn't find quality care, something which contributed to a loss of valuable time for my transition.

Nice to hear that you're getting well now, and sad to hear that you lost years due to the stupid German system. May I ask what the reasonable pace looks like in your case?

In my case, it delayed transition for several years. I thought I could not lie my way through or endure one year of living in a "->-bleeped-<- test" farce situation, and only years later found out by talking to some transsexual SoC "cheaters" what tricks to apply. This is when I decided that transitioning could be safe enough for me in spite of our Standards of "Care".

In short, go to a therapist in a different city so he doesn't catch you in "wrong" clothes by accident, change clothes and apply make-up and jewellery in a parking lot if you go there from work, don't go to the shrink in unisex clothes as this might indicate you don't really do the real life test but lie, go part-time, keep work life and private life separate, only tell him about your real life experience in your private life, prepare bogus stories of your "->-bleeped-<- test" experiences at work in case he asks you about it and don't go into detail there on your own. Don't tell him you started epilation, keep away from transsexual "sheep" who go to the same shrink and hardly tell anyone in the trans community that you cheat on the "->-bleeped-<- test" if at all, so word doesn't spread and these "sheep" wont tell him (usually these folks are very self-absorbed anyway, but you never know). Choose a shrink who is strict with the SoC but easy to trick and doesn't ask much about the "->-bleeped-<- test". Feed the shrink's needs to gain his trust (he wants to be helpful, so you gotta tell him some of your problems and make him feel useful there. Plus having an "urgent" or "important" problem at each meeting, at least you do something which is remotely like the obligatory psychotherapy, kill time, and it also helps distracting him from asking you details about the "->-bleeped-<- test").

Plus, if you don't want a too long delay for hormones, as one year + waiting list time is a lot of time already, you don't want to get your wish delayed or even rejected by the first therapist and have to go to the next one. So... get lots of information and auto-diagnose yourself thoroughly to not do the biggest mistake of your life, learn both childhood and adulthood ICD-10 GID criteria and differential diagnoses to fit into that scheme towards your doc and to hopefully be labelled primary and not secondary transsexual, but apart from this, the "->-bleeped-<- test" and "illegal" hormone use/epilation, be honest. Take time with transition, don't show the therapist if you're too unstable as he might refuse you hormones/op's - but delay them if you think on your own that it might not be a good moment to start that. In other words: be your own therapist, be careful and responsible, and try to reduce the paternalization and to keep in control of the situation and planning as much as you can.

Yeah, I'm one of those "type 3" folks; some of us rush through, others of us are even much more careful and slow in their transition than the German SoC requests. It's just that we don't follow the exact prescribed order and time schedules but want to decide for ourselves how we transition, so we have to lie. Needless to say, some of us do very well, others would really need a therapy after the whole procedure to recover from the obligatory therapy as this double life and lying under pressure is also kinda traumatizing but less than an imposed "->-bleeped-<- test". But many of us have developed such a strong hate/mistrust/contempt/phobia of therapists in this paternalizing and ivory-tower gatekeeper system that we won't ever do therapy again, no matter how we might need this in the future.

[Summerfall]

Sorry for you having had to deal with the German SoC. They're a pain in the a**. Did the sadistic "->-bleeped-<- test" year make you shun away from transition, or was it something else?

Well, I was impatient mostly because I was a teenager, and I knew how valuable even a single year could be at that time. I felt frustrated, because I had already learned about the American standards. I tried to find a new therapist, and sadly ended up with one even worse. This new, very Freudian therapist had the opinion that my being transsexual was actually just a fear of sex (I was a virgin at the time) and this was after only just a few sessions. I ended up giving up on therapy and with no support group I became overwhelmed with transition and gave up on that as well.

But many of us have developed such a strong hate/mistrust/contempt/phobia of therapists in this paternalizing and ivory-tower gatekeeper system that we won't ever do therapy again, no matter how we might need this in the future.

I felt like that for a long time, until I actually saw good therapy in action.

Nice to hear that you're getting well now, and sad to hear that you lost years due to the stupid German system. May I ask what the reasonable pace looks like in your case?

Now I am back in America and I am going at what I think is a normal pace for here. I had been in therapy for other reasons for some time, and when I started to deal with being transgender, my therapist was extremely supportive and almost instantly willing to write a letter for hormones.

I am so glad to see that you know enough about the system in Germany to find at least some care for those who need it. No person should feel like being themselves is a privilege granted by others.

[Fencesitter]

Well, I was impatient mostly because I was a teenager, and I knew how valuable even a single year could be at that time. I felt frustrated, because I had already learned about the American standards. I tried to find a new therapist, and sadly ended up with one even worse. This new, very Freudian therapist had the opinion that my being transsexual was actually just a fear of sex (I was a virgin at the time) and this was after only just a few sessions. I ended up giving up on therapy and with no support group I became overwhelmed with transition and gave up on that as well.I felt like that for a long time, until I actually saw good therapy in action.

I was really shocked when I read this. My, you really had no luck here in Germany! Losing years and years cause of the experts' incompetence, that's really sad. May I ask who that Freudian guy was?

Nowadays, things have improved a bit and you may have the chance to get an indication for androgen blockers relatively fast (3 months or something like that). We also have support groups and good online forums, and there you get the information which kind of people have good experience with which shrinks. (The support group I went to twice or thrice consisted mainly of sheep, though, but I found one of the "cheating rebels" there. We could spot one another easily as we were the only ones who did not take  expert opinions and the holy German SoC for infaillible.)

We still have problems with Freudian therapists, though, and some of these were the ones who created our cherished and sacrosanct German Standards of Care. One of them e. g. makes hormone and OP indications difficult for FTMs who were anorexic at some point of their life, I found out recently. I don't know why, but she has 4 categories of FTMs in her publications and they form an extra category, saying their outcome is often bad if they transition. She asked me about anorexia 2 years ago, she had not published that yet on the internet, and so I was not warned. Thanks God I never was anorexic. Whatever problems you have or had, you really have to be careful what to tell and what not, or which therapist you choose.

Now I am back in America and I am going at what I think is a normal pace for here. I had been in therapy for other reasons for some time, and when I started to deal with being transgender, my therapist was extremely supportive and almost instantly willing to write a letter for hormones.

Good to hear that. That's the difference between the USA and Germany. In the USA, you have to pay much on your own. But you are treated as an adult. I don't know which system is better.

I am so glad to see that you know enough about the system in Germany to find at least some care for those who need it. No person should feel like being themselves is a privilege granted by others.

Well, yeah, here in Germany, both the "sheep" and the "foxes" meanwhile have information sources how to get the least bad care, or even good care, if there's choice in your region. The "foxes" stay more undercover, but kind of spot one another easily in support groups etc. And rumors of which shrink is okay for which kind of people prescribes hormones and OPs) spread well among both groups. The one-year-->-bleeped-<--test oddity has become more strict recently, though.   

Your last sentence is brilliant. I should write a Science Fiction novel on that topic, with Martian Standards of Care for... well, whatever. Being allowed to found a family, to speak your native language or something like that :mrgreen:.

[lilacwoman]

Fencesitter, a lot of that old 70s crap is still being spoken today by the Blanchard Zucker Bailey Treia Lawrence clique ceentred around CAMH. 
Make sure you add info about them and how little they understand. And David Reimer and John Money need a paragraph of their own.

[Fencesitter]

Fencesitter, a lot of that old 70s crap is still being spoken today by the Blanchard Zucker Bailey Treia Lawrence clique ceentred around CAMH.  Make sure you add info about them and how little they understand. And David Reimer and John Money need a paragraph of their own.

Okay, you want more ranting? Here you are:

Oh yeah. Those guys. They are as beneficial to transsexuals as Godzilla is to Tokyo. Their "competence center" really needs to be blown up, and salt spread on the floor so that it won't grow back again. The Blanchard Bailey et al. nonsense creeps a bit into some of the current German "experts" writings as well, and occasionally, the term "Autogynäkophilie" pops up there like a sudden flash-back of a weird nightmare (or a loud fart after a chili con carne meal). But mostly the Germans cling to older versions of the primary/secondary MTF theory, and almost all do it (which is not great either but at least a tiny little bit less offensively over-sexualizing). That said, I don't doubt there ARE some MTFs who fit these descriptions, but we're a too varied bunch of people to fit in these tiny boxes. We should write a mock theory about the two only existing kinds of GG, with lots of fetishization in it, and the one kind of GM, and say anybody who says they don't fit in these tiny boxes are lying.

One of the worst European creeps, the French version of Blanchard Bailey etc. is Colette Chiland, she's a reactionary Freudian trans- and homophobic huge pain in the a**, leads the Paris "competence center" for transsexuality, and has a huge influence on French shrinks. (Thank God German shrinks don't read literature in French!). I think she has ruined the lives of dozens if not hundreds of people, and lots of French transsexuals really have to exile from their country to get the help they need:
http://syndromedebenjamin.free.fr/textes/englishtexts/hbigda2003uk.htm

John Money and David Reimer? Can't even rant about this one, it's so awful I lack words. Worst thing is Money went on telling publicly about this "success story" even after he knew he messed it up.

Otherwise, the Germans are mostly annoying when it comes to the Real Life test before hormones holy cow, in their almost complete ignorance of the cat-and-mouse play we (have to) do, in their neurotic compulsion to always class us by sexual orientation which supposedly helps to predict the probability of a good outcome if prescribed hormones and surgery (and always forgetting that bi folks exist, by the way, and that the data on which they base the outcome statistics are not reliable). I mean, lots of transsexuals are in the military or in computer science, why don't they group us by career paths? 

And when the Freudian fraction of them write their utterly esoteric weird theories about us, the most hilarious stuff comes out when you have words like "oedipal/anal phase" etc. in it, these are very reliable bull->-bleeped-<- indicators. The Freudians are usually also those who get it last when the TS community starts being honest about something (e. g. not all FTMs are only into women or into women at all - used to serve as a proof that you're not TS 10, 15 years ago here). It seems to be always annoying for them as they have to adapt their theories again then, or see that these pseudo-scientific theories just don't work. And makes them aware that they have turned away lots of patients in the past just cause they did not fit into their boxes, or that they were lied to all the years. My shrink was a Freudian, and now after reading these theories, I understand why he used to ask me such weird questions all the time. I also seemed to confuse the hell out of him as I'm bi. ->-bleeped-<-, can't be classed neatly by sexual orientation as they never developed an FTM bi box. Maybe I'll read about such a box in two years or so in the literature, which will describe me and pretend ALL bi FTMs are like me. Wouldn't astoun me.

When we trans people here get our papers with the description of our "psycho-sexual development" (that's obligatory according to our SoC, so you get lots of questions asked about your sex life, grreeeaaat), and we are good friends, we show them to one another, read them and burst out laughing. (That is, those of us who aren't sheep.) We laugh both about the points where we were honest and which get scrambled up into weird theories or reported wrongly, and about the blunt lies we told and were believed. 

[lilacwoman]

   nice rant.

I wonder how many of your German shrinks and therapists form their ideas of TSism from teenage viewings of Victor/Victoria and boozy trips to the Reeperbahn? 
I have friends who went there to get money for their surgeries and some of the sex, drugs and rock'n'roll orgies they got into are mindblowing.

on the other hand maybe this clip of graduates shows how the hetero ideal is exalted.  'Come now, let's all be gay boys.'

would any of those guys be secretly wishing they could wear the low cut blouse and big skirts?

[justmeinoz]

Sorry to hear about your problems Fencesitter. I would have thought that Germany was pretty switched on in the area of TS therapy otherwise.

It might sound facetious, but do you know of anyone who has claimed to be Jewish and used accusations of anti-semitism to get their way?  I reckon it would work a treat, and totally freak people out, because some of them deserve a good kick in the umlaut!

[Fencesitter]

@lilacwoman

Funny video!
Reeperbahn, I don't know, but Colette Clichand I think got her opinions from I don't know where. I don't even want to fancy WHAT sources of knowledge she used. Plus probably strong transphobia, rationalized behind theories and not even trying to hide her contempt in her writings (they read like Blanchard, Phelps and Janice Raymond created a rare masterpiece of transphobia in team-work). I wonder why she specializes in a field where she has to deal with people she just can't stand on a daily basis - just to insult and humiliate them  (which is what most French transsexuals who have/had to deal with her in person report). Must be a lot of self-hatred behind it, or some kind of strong sadism, or whatever. I don't know, ask a Freudian.

Sorry to hear about your problems Fencesitter. I would have thought that Germany was pretty switched on in the area of TS therapy otherwise.

Germany could be great if you just avoid the wrong shrinks, and if we did not have the German SoC dated from 1996 and based on the Freudian fraction's beliefs, or if these were taken for what they are - guidelines, not rules. Many therapists are okay, but if they do the therapy free-style and individually, or according to the international SoC, and don't follow our holy German SoC, their patients get into trouble later on when they want the surgery letters. Oh, and if it were not so horribly complicated to make a name change. You need two shrinks' papers for that which prove that your new gender role will very probably persist forever - this often means going to the shrinks for a year so they can see your psychological development and whether you're persistant over a longer period. Meaning either you start your ->-bleeped-<- test then with non-matching ID card etc., or everything gets delayed by 1 year + several months waiting time until you get the appointment + time needed for shrink to write paper + several months needed by the court until they decide about your case.

All that hassle for a name change, mind you! Originally, the possibility to make a name change was introduced to facilitate the ->-bleeped-<- test, but our government managed to ruin that thoroughly (one more reason why the ->-bleeped-<- test is stupid, you don't even have correct paperwork during that time even if you pass). Plus often two more shrinks' papers after name change, for gender change, as surgery reports usually are not enough here. It's really a bureaucratic labyrinth.

It might sound facetious, but do you know of anyone who has claimed to be Jewish and used accusations of anti-semitism to get their way?  I reckon it would work a treat, and totally freak people out, because some of them deserve a good kick in the umlaut!

Haha, that would be funny. I don't know of any, though, we don't have many Jews here for obvious reasons. The shrinks would probably not play the game I think, but feel embarrassed. Probably they'd try to cure his/her deep-rooted traumatisms from his family story first or something like that. Don't ask me how much German-speaking literature emphasizes that we trans folks tend to urge and push and want our stuff in a hurry and that you should not comply with it as first, the 1-year ->-bleeped-<- test diagnosis must be made (you cannot shorten the time by saying or proving that you've been full-time for years, must be 1 year with regular therapeutical accompanyment so they can evaluate what progress you make in that year). Unless we threaten them with suicide, which is then considered manipulative and hinting at a very unstable and whatever personality, and which either helps us make things go faster, or  delays the hormones and surgery as we're deemed too unstable for that then.

[lilacwoman]

Germany is a founder member of the European Court of Human Rights which take precedence over German laws so anyone who is having serious trouble getting treatmnet in germany should see about getting a lawyer involved to read the riot act to their local health service.

[Fencesitter]

Germany is a founder member of the European Court of Human Rights which take precedence over German laws so anyone who is having serious trouble getting treatmnet in germany should see about getting a lawyer involved to read the riot act to their local health service.

1. This takes lots of years and money.
2. The European Court of Human Rights cannot force Germany to decide correspondingly. Their rulings are seen as an important suggestion to consider, however.

[lilacwoman]

Are you sure about that? In UK we can take our cases to highest UK court and then if no satisfaction take them to the ECHR as they are superior.
Van Kuck v Germany 2003 regarding grs shows ECHR as highest court.

[Fencesitter]

Are you sure about that? In UK we can take our cases to highest UK court and then if no satisfaction take them to the ECHR as they are superior.
Van Kuck v Germany 2003 regarding grs shows ECHR as highest court.

Hm not quite sure any more...

However, years of suing until you get to the highest German court is annoying enough.