Are there more bio M or F androgynes?

[Just Kate]

Perhaps I haven't looked far enough down the threads in this forum so I apologize if this has already been hit on.

So the overwhelming majority of transsexuals start as biologically male.  So far from what I've noticed on the androgyne forums/lists I've seen, the majority of androgynes seem to start as biologically female.  Does anyone have any numbers or ideas on the reality of which biological sex produces the most androgynes?

[V M]

That is an interesting question. I've seen both but have never kept count 

[KYLYKaHYT]

I've noticed this too. It seems to me that more female-born folks are comfortable with an ambiguous gender identity (i.e., androgyne, genderqueer, gender-fluid, third gender, neutrois, etc.) than those born male-bodied.

I don't have any answers, but I've often wondered why this is (or if my perceptions are even correct) too.

[Pica Pica]

i think someone did a count a while ago and came up with it being fairly even.

[tekla]

If they were being very good androgynes wouldn't it be hard to tell?

[KYLYKaHYT]

Probably not... without a panty / boxer / bloomer / briefs / jock strap check. 

...and even then... 

[tekla]

Allright, line up and drop those pants and raise those skirts.

[KYLYKaHYT]

which first, the pants or the skirt...?

[tekla]

yes

[KYLYKaHYT]

i'm wearing skorts.

...this might take a while.

[tekla]

I'm thinking more male, in that females are given a lot more leeway in this area before they feel a need to label themselves.

[KYLYKaHYT]

Maybe. But then I also think that anyone, male-born or female-born that experiences any level of gender dysphoria is probably quite consciously aware that they are quite different from the majority of their peers.

And are labels necessarily self-applied, or are they sometimes applied to us by others?

[tekla]

I teflon coated myself and spray myself with Pam before I go out, that way labels never stick.

[RebeccaFog]

someone did a poll and it came out even.

You can do a new poll if you'd like.

[Nero]

I'm thinking more male, in that females are given a lot more leeway in this area before they feel a need to label themselves.

I agree. Male bodied androgynes are more likely to examine themselves for this reason.
But female bodied androgynes are much more likely to be militant and genderqueer about it.

[tekla]

Even before those labels, it was always far more OK for a girl to be a tomboy, then for a boy to be a sissy.  Hell, in '73 I had to fight like a dog to take Home Ec.  Now, girls could take woodshop or autoshop, but a boy wanting to cook?  Never.  Odd, I got some grief for it until all the guy figured out that I was making cakes and brownies in school and all wanted in on that.

[Nicky]

Do we even classify as bio males or females?
Anyone watch clips by "icecoldbath" on youtube? To take a leaf from her book we could say we are bio-androgynes. I think I was born this way. And now taking from Kate Bornstein you could also say I am simply an androgyne with a penis.

I actually think it is useful to think of yourself as having a bio male or female body as they are slightly different machines with their own running needs. Also it seems to be important in how we express ourselves as androgynes and how society sees us.

[Simone Louise]

Even before those labels, it was always far more OK for a girl to be a tomboy, then for a boy to be a sissy.  Hell, in '73 I had to fight like a dog to take Home Ec.  Now, girls could take woodshop or autoshop, but a boy wanting to cook?  Never.  Odd, I got some grief for it until all the guy figured out that I was making cakes and brownies in school and all wanted in on that.

Riding Michigan Central trains to and from college, I would knit, noting and ignoring female stares. Later in life, when I made dishes for pot lucks, my wife would automatically be complimented. When my wife went on business trips, her mother would suggest leaving me ready-cooked meals (I, being responsible for most of the meals when she's home).

On the other hand, when I took an adult-ed sewing course, the instructor insisted I make a skirt, like the other students. We were told to wear them the last day of class, which fell on Halloween. Nor has there ever been an eyebrow raised when I've taken adult-ed cooking classes.

The AARP is sponsoring a sweepstakes. The prize is a makeover ("Christopher Hopkins, a.k.a. The Makeover Guy, did an amazing job on the winners of our 2008 Faces of 50+ Real People Model Search (check them out in our multimedia special). Now, one lucky reader—chosen in a random drawing—will score a trip to Christopher's reVamp! salonspa for his or her own beauty makeover."). I wonder if they are prepared for long-haired androgynes, cross dressers, and the rest of us. Anyone else an AARP member? I wonder if I should enter.

Of course, I know that such roles and presentations have nothing to do with gender, but then what does?

Smiling sweetly whilst pondering what to make for supper (no smoothies--it must be something my wife likes),
S

[Nero]

Even before those labels, it was always far more OK for a girl to be a tomboy, then for a boy to be a sissy.  Hell, in '73 I had to fight like a dog to take Home Ec.  Now, girls could take woodshop or autoshop, but a boy wanting to cook?  Never.  Odd, I got some grief for it until all the guy figured out that I was making cakes and brownies in school and all wanted in on that.

Riding Michigan Central trains to and from college, I would knit, noting and ignoring female stares. Later in life, when I made dishes for pot lucks, my wife would automatically be complimented. When my wife went on business trips, her mother would suggest leaving me ready-cooked meals (I, being responsible for most of the meals when she's home).

On the other hand, when I took an adult-ed sewing course, the instructor insisted I make a skirt, like the other students. We were told to wear them the last day of class, which fell on Halloween. Nor has there ever been an eyebrow raised when I've taken adult-ed cooking classes.

The AARP is sponsoring a sweepstakes. The prize is a makeover ("Christopher Hopkins, a.k.a. The Makeover Guy, did an amazing job on the winners of our 2008 Faces of 50+ Real People Model Search (check them out in our multimedia special). Now, one lucky reader—chosen in a random drawing—will score a trip to Christopher's reVamp! salonspa for his or her own beauty makeover."). I wonder if they are prepared for long-haired androgynes, cross dressers, and the rest of us. Anyone else an AARP member? I wonder if I should enter.

Of course, I know that such roles and presentations have nothing to do with gender, but then what does?

Smiling sweetly whilst pondering what to make for supper (no smoothies--it must be something my wife likes),
S

I want a wife like you Simone!

[tekla]

I recall being asked - at length - why I would want to take Home Ec, and the responses a) to pad my GPA, or b) gee, me and 30 girls in a class together I had to get lucky were both out of the question.  So I told them that I was moving out of the house into an apartment as soon as school was over, and I thought all that stuff would be good to know.  Which was true.  When it was suggested that girls (this is '73, in a Catholic School, so not exactly progressive) do that kind of work I asked "So, are you saying I should get a girl to live with me?"  No more calls, I had a winner.