Relationship Strain

[Mario]

Everytime Pam goes to court, or even just the topic of her not seeing her kids comes up, it's a very bad thing. I feel I will always feel responsible for the outcome to this point. I can't understand why she only railroaded throughout this divorce. They can be ugly. Ofcourse. But to have your children turn their backs on you as well is beyond my thoughts. Through these last 9 months or so, in my mind I continue to go back and forth with thoughts of breaking up with her in order for her to be able to see her kids. Everyone tells me it is not my fault. That does not matter. I will always feel like it is. I believe it we were not together, then they would want to see her. All the crap that keeps going into their heads is the factor of me. My existance in her life has been a forefront of their case in court. Why? If my kids did not want to see me, I don't know that I could handle that. I see them when I want. No one will ever tell me otherwise. Things will never be the same, but they will be. Everytime I think Pam and I make a step forward, it becomes a step back. All because of DANNY.(her ex)

                                            Marco

[Melissa]

Have you discussed this with Pam?  What would make her happy?  I imagine she would be pretty distraught if she lost you.  It really is sad that it had to come down to a choice of her deciding between you or the kids.  Really, if you walked away, the only person who would win would be Danny.

Melissa

[Chynna]

THE WORST THING YOU COULD DO TO HER IS BREAK UP WITH HER!!!!
I mean you think she has abandonment issues now with her kids not wanting to see her How do you think she'll feel if the love of her life leaves her too???Then what\where will she be???

ALONE

Not a fun place at all.
Struggle will bring the two of you closer and make the bond between you so much more stronger and unbreakable. Breaking up with her wont suddenly make her kids\family have second thoughts...damage is already done.....Only time will make things right in the mean time just be the man I know you are and stay the course and be supportive. Let the WOMAN decide what she wants and what direction this whole event will take and remember a line out of one of my favorite gospel songs...

This to shall pass

The Doll

[Nero]

Hello Marco.
I wish I had some really profound advice, but never having been in your situation, I don't.
Please don't feel that this is your fault. How could it possibly be your fault? What, by being true to yourself and refusing to live a lie? By falling in love with a wonderful woman?
Divorce hurts. It hurts no matter the circumstances. It's easy for children to place the blame on the "other man" or the "other woman" rather than their parents. No matter what they may say, your wife's kids are hurt and angry about the divorce, not about you.
If her children talk about you, it's because they require a scapegoat, just as I found ridiculous reasons to pick apart my new stepmother (she's weird, she wears a wig, she locks herself in her room and gets off on vampire films).
During the divorce, I was so angry with my mother, that I moved in with my father. She wasn't seeing anybody at the time, so I doubt your wife's kids' actions have anything to do with you.
The divorce is just a major change in their lives, and it'd be the same even if your wife were single.
When the divorce is over and the din dies down, her kids will come around, just as I did. Nothing can break the bond between a mother and her children.
As Melissa and Chynna said, the last thing your wife needs right now is to lose you as well.

On a lighter note: Great pic! It would seem that you get better looking with every new photo.

Nero

[stephanie_craxford]

Everytime Pam goes to court, or even just the topic of her not seeing her kids comes up, it's a very bad thing. I feel I will always feel responsible for the outcome to this point. I can't understand why she only railroaded throughout this divorce. They can be ugly. Ofcourse. But to have your children turn their backs on you as well is beyond my thoughts. Through these last 9 months or so, in my mind I continue to go back and forth with thoughts of breaking up with her in order for her to be able to see her kids. Everyone tells me it is not my fault. That does not matter. I will always feel like it is. I believe it we were not together, then they would want to see her. All the crap that keeps going into their heads is the factor of me. My existance in her life has been a forefront of their case in court. Why? If my kids did not want to see me, I don't know that I could handle that. I see them when I want. No one will ever tell me otherwise. Things will never be the same, but they will be. Everytime I think Pam and I make a step forward, it becomes a step back. All because of DANNY.(her ex)

                                            Marco

Having experienced a recent break up then reunion myself I can understand the things that you are going through Marco.  I blame myself for the unhappiness that Gill is going through, the divisions it has created and because of me we came close to loosing our daughter.  We have discussed this over and over, how happy and normal her life would be if I were not a part of it.  It really hurts and we often end up in tears just talking about it.

It is such a huge problem to try and reconcile.  Of course it may eventually come down to going or staying, and hopefully that will happen while it is still your choice, and not something that is forced on you.  One thing to consider is the relationship you have with Pam, how strong is it, how does she feel about you.  You have to ask the hard questions - "would she feel better if you were out of the equation", "would she be happier", "how would the kids feel if you were gone".  These are tough questions but what can be tougher is the answers to them.  I always preach honesty, but you have to be tough to deal with honesty as it can often break your heart.

If you both decide that your relationship is worth fighting for then you're going to have to be willing to fight for it tooth and nail, realizing that in the process you could loose even more than you have already lost.  Maintaining a relationship is one of the hardest things to do for TS, and I'm afraid that the odds are stacked against us in maintaining those relationships.  So far Gill and I are making it work, but there have been sacrifices and compromises on both our sides.  And still there is no guarantee of success.  If you poll the members here who have been able to stay in the relationship during or after transition and I'm afraid that you will discover that there are not many of us out there.

I don't mean to throw fuel on the fire but simply emphasize the realities of the life we must endure.

Steph

[MarcosGirl]

I wanted to pop in here and thank you all for the advice you are giving Marco.  I really would be devastated if he broke it off with me.  But if that is what he feels he should do, then he should just get it over with and stop treating me like I am a yo-yo.  He has actually done this since the inception of our relationship.  There have been different reasons along the way that he would try to push me away.  I realize that he is going through an extremely difficult adjuustment period in his life and he probably doesn't need all my problems to compound anything he is going through, but I have ALWAYS tried to be 'there' for him and never make him feel like I would turn my back on him.  Everything in my life is just so unstable right now and I really need to feel like at least one segment of it is stable.  I just don't though.  My court hearing today, as Marco indicated, was another railroad job.  The amount of support that I have to pay has gone up $174.00 AND I have to pay the different retroactive back to May 15th ($522.00).  The judge ordered that my children go to counseling with me, but then in the next breath he says that if the children say they don't want to go, then they don't have to go.  Do you think the family members are going to encourage them to go?  Absolutely not!  They do just the opposite.  They keep telling them that I don't love them and that it is o.k. to shun me.  I had a counseling appt set up for today with the kids, but they said they didn't want to go.  My daughter did say though that she would be willing to go next week.  I guess that is a baby step in the right direction.  I hope she does.

Marco and I had had a rocky morning, but I thought the afternoon was going better...then I read this.

Thanks again for the kind words.

Pam

[Luc]

Marco, I'll side with everyone else on this thread... the problem does not lie with you. There are any number of factors which might have contributed to this whole mess, possibly the least among them your presence in Pam's life. My advice? Ask Pam about it. From her post, I know this is plenty hard on her, and if I were you, I'd find out just what she wants to do. Does she value her relationship with you so much that she's willing to sacrifice time with her children? I know that's an incredibly tough question, and the answer could be nearly unbearable, but you two are in a relationship, so that means the both of you should be able to discuss things. Don't just go breaking it off because you're convinced you're the problem.

Rafe

[Buffy]

Hi Marco,

Sometimes there are no answers. Right or wrongs and it comes down to what our heart tells us.

I believe every relationship is worth fighting for as long as there is something there and the posts I have read from you and Pam say that is so.

Like everyone else has said..... you need to talk this through, without blame, anger or any of those negative emotions and both answer the question "what do you truly want"and be honest about it. I am sure there will be some common ground.

I feel for you both

Becky

[Mario]

Thanks to everyone for your replies. I really don't try ti complicate things, but sometimes that is how it ends up.

Melissa, she would be devistated if I left. Shoot, I would be devistated as well. And your right as to all it would be is Danny wins. Crap I feel that way after every hearing.

Chynna, yes you are right the damage is already done.

Nero, The reason I feel it is my fault is because I have bben used as amn example since the begining, all the way now to the courtroom. But as you said about Pam being a wonderful  woman, she is.

Tink, Your so sweet. Pam and I just love you. I don't understand why her kids wont see her. Pam feels they are not loyal enough. How can that be? I say because they are living with a tyrant. Loser.

Steph, I take all the advice I can get from you, and appreciate it. You have been down part of a path I am going. We both do fell like our relationship is worth fighting for.

Pam, I love you very much and am sorry for what you had to endure today. I just always feel helpless with all this crap and want to fix it.

Rafe, She is not willing to sacrifice anyone. They have shut the door on her. She will always leave hers open.

                                              Marco



Posted at: August 16, 2006, 09:25:53 PMBecky, Thanks so much. We have talked it out, and now seem to be on the same page. Lets hope we can keep it this way.

                                     Marco
   

[molly]

If you both decide that your relationship is worth fighting for then you're going to have to be willing to fight for it tooth and nail, realizing that in the process you could loose even more than you have already lost.  Maintaining a relationship is one of the hardest things to do for TS, and I'm afraid that the odds are stacked against us in maintaining those relationships.  So far Gill and I are making it work, but there have been sacrifices and compromises on both our sides.  And still there is no guarantee of success.  If you poll the members here who have been able to stay in the relationship during or after transition and I'm afraid that you will discover that there are not many of us out there.



Steph

Marco,

This has been and continues to be the hardest part of my TS journey - fighting to be me while trying to maintain my marriage with my wife.  Some days I think it will work and other days I get so depressed and sad because it feels like everything is just falling apart around me.

I don't have any great insights or words of wisdom.  I can only echo what Steph has said about fighting tooth and nail, but in the end who knows.  I hear so many stories from so many sisters and brothers about the failed relationships due to being TS and I cry, a lot.  My wife has told me if the choice comes down to between me and the grandchildren, well she loves me, but she's gone.  I used to pray that someway, somehow I would wake up from a bad dream and my life would be "normal" again.  Now I am just looking for acceptance, not approval.  I hope that everything works out for you.  Keep fighting, don't give up.  I wish you well.

Molly

[edit]Fixed quote tags - Steph[/edit]

[Dennis]

You need to listen to Pam too Marco. You've said you're listening to everyone else in this thread, but Pam's the most important one. And what she needs from you is a solid commitment. She's said that's what she wants and you should take her at her word that that's what she wants. Don't try and second guess what might be "better" for her.

Anyway, it's sure not going to help Pam any if you leave her too. She's taken on a huge amount of trouble in her life for the sake of your relationship and you should be prepared to do the same.

Pam, I do hope your daughter goes with you next week. Like you said, baby steps. And I hope you can have hope from seeing how Marco's eldest is coming around slowly, and how Steph's daughter is coming around slowly. Open arms, open door, open heart, and eventually they'll come in. It's a pain I can't imagine living through and you're a strong woman for being able to continue. I hope you get the support you need.

Dennis

[MarcosGirl]

First, let me say that Marco and I have done a lot of talking today.  We know that a lot of things in our lives are uncertain right now, but one thing that is not uncertain is our love for each other.  We are committed to fighting tooth and nail for our relationship.  We go through these rough patches every now and again, but everytime, I believe that our relationship emerges stronger.

Marco...I LOVE YOU TOO!!  You're the love of my life and I don't want to go it without you!!

Dennis...thank you so much for your input.  You are such a beacon of encouragement to me!


Pam

[Chynna]

HUMOR Injection!

Marco...I LOVE YOU TOO!!  You're the love of my life and I don't want to go it without you!!

OMG, Mushy stuff ewwwww.......get a 4-ROOM LMAO

God you guys are sickening but cute LOL

Group hugs!   

[Kismet]

How old are the children?
Are they not old enough now to decide what they want?

And if it is them who have decided they no longer wish to see their mother because of her choice in a mate... Shouldn't this then be turned around on them as a lesson in both maturity and acceptance?
Should it not be that if they claim to love their mother, then by proxy they must trust in her judgment in things as personal as her choice of mate?

To say to them that their opinions do not matter isn't the way to go... However they must understand that whom their mother chooses to share her life with, in the end, is a decision made completely and utterly free and independantly of them.

It's always rough when kids are involved because often they just don't understand... I know a lot of young people my age (around 18) think the world should revolve around them and their own choices, even if they don't openly admit that about themselves that is the way their thought processes go.

It's a difficult path to choose... But if they stick to their rather closed-minded decision of refusing contact with their mother for such a petty reason, then perhaps they need some time in their own elected seclusion to come to terms with themselves and their feelings. Perhaps if/when they grow a little inside in certain areas, they will come back to you.

[MarcosGirl]

Kismet,

My daughter is 15 and my son is 12.  I couldn't agree with what you said more.  I have been keeping the door open on my end.  I do not devalue their opinions by telling them they are wrong, on the contrary, I let them know that I understand that they are upset with me.  I tell them that I love them and miss them everytime I talk to them.  I have told them that I have not chosen anybody over them.  The relationship between Marco and me cannot be compared to the parnent/child relationship.  The main difficulty in my situation is that my ex-husband and his parents are religious fanatics.  They truly think that I am an evil person 1) for divorcing him and, 2) for falling in love with a transsexual.  They view Marco and me as a same-sex couple and refuse to see it any other way.  They choose to stay in their ignorance and they tell the kids that it is o.k. to turn their backs on me.  They think they are justified by telling the kids what an evil sinner that I am, because they believe they somehow have the direct line to God and because of my choices, I couldn't possibly be entitled to any kind of relationship with God.  My ex has gone far enough to tell my kids that I am dead and they need to just mourn my loss and move on.  I had thought at the beginning of all this that I instilled the concept of unconditional love in my kids, but for now, it seems that my ex's narrow-minded 'my way or the highway' view of life has won out.  I can't help but be angry and feel that my kids don't love me, but I have to keep in mind that they are just that...kids.  When they tell me they don't want to see me, I have respected that and not forced my presence on them, but then that is only turned on me in court and it is said that I make no effort.  They are inundated with negative messages about me day in and day out.  Nobody, but me, ever tells them that I love them.  They are told the opposite, that I couldn't possibly love them and do what I have done.  My ex has shown in the courtroom that he won't stop at anything to try to ruin me.  Then in the next breath he says that he still loves and cares about me.  There is no way that I can believe that because I don't think the man honestly knows what love is.

One good thing is that as time goes on, my anger toward him is disapating.  No matter what he does to me, I will survive.  He is the way he is because he was raised that way.  I guess I pity him more than anything.  A person that doesn't have any kind of concept of love is an empty person.  I just have to have faith that my love for my kids will win out in the long run.

Pam

[Kismet]

If I may be so bold - I'd like to say something.
I, personally, believe you to be an excellent mother. Your determination, obvious love and devotion to your children is something I wish I could have had in a mother. My mother and father split up at the age of four, and as a young child I was thrown in the middle of many fights, bad-mouthing sessions and blame-game weaponry.

The religious aspect of it all is something I have never experienced personally. I've only ever observed situations like these, and so all I can do is really comment being a total outsider. I may sound like I'm debasing your ex or whatever, but really, I don't know the man and I don't know much about all that is involved. However... I think it's safe to say that he's being a right prat about all this.

I hope that your kids eventually come to the stage where they question and rebel against religion enough to figure out that it's more or less guidelines for living a life based on helping and caring for others. I'm not much for the Christian faith myself, but I do respect it for what it is.
I hope they stop listening to all that crap they're being fed about "EVIL" and "DEVILS" and all the rest of it and open their eyes to the bigger picture. I'm sure they will, but it'll take time.
Fight the good fight,

-Draeden