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What Does It Take To Cross The Gender Line?

Started by Julie Marie, February 23, 2009, 05:00:50 PM

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chrysalis

I think a lot of war comes down to power struggles and no single gender is responsible for that. Though there might be less interpersonal violence if men weren't constrained by their gender roles to act tough. I don't know if you are familiar with the work of Jackson Katz, but he has a lot of really well developed theories on this.
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aubrey

Hmm. Well i think testoserone is responsible, evolution is responsible. Pump alot of T into either sex and it tends to make one aggressive, add to that whatever strife already exists and BOOM. Men aren't slaves to society, they  more often than not like acting tough when the situation warrants, it's not simply an exercise in societal mores. Why do you think that societal constraint began in the first place?
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Miniar

Having seen two women go at it full force over an earring.... I'm not sure that there would be "less" wars with less men/testosterone in charge.



"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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Soapyshoe

Quote from: Miniar on February 25, 2009, 07:56:27 AM
Having seen two women go at it full force over an earring.... I'm not sure that there would be "less" wars with less men/testosterone in charge.

Although there would be just as much aggression, I feel like it wouldn't manifest itself as physical aggression. 

Also, I think women would work through international issues less egotistically if they had all the money.  It would be more about nurturing those in need than hoarding wealth for social status.
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Miniar

Quote from: Ashling on February 25, 2009, 12:38:46 PM
Although there would be just as much aggression, I feel like it wouldn't manifest itself as physical aggression. 
You didn't see them rip "chunks" of hair, with scalp, out of each other's heads..

Quote from: AshlingAlso, I think women would work through international issues less egotistically if they had all the money.  It would be more about nurturing those in need than hoarding wealth for social status.
I've seen corruptive, selfish, arrogant women as well as men. And the nature of power is such that it attracts those who would want to use it for their own purposes, regardless of sex/gender. Problem just has been that so far we've almost only seen men in charge, so we don't have proper information to compare the two, so it's easy to think that women would do better cause we haven't seen 'em do "as bad" so far.



"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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Julie Marie

Women need men to be strong so they can protect and take care of them.  Men dressed in silk and lace aren't seen as strong.

But what's funny is if you ask a group of women what they would like to see in their men, the majority could cite things like sensitivity, compassion, nurturing - female traits.  But they still want a big strong man.  ::)

And men are mostly insecure so they easily buy into this.  I worked construction for almost 3-1/2 decades and I worked with all kinds of macho.  But when you got these guys one-on-one they were almost all pussycats.  Most macho men put on an act.

So men can't emulate women or they will lost their image, the facade.  And once you lose that it's tough to gain it back.

Tell the guy to keep his suit and tie armor on.  That way the girl will find him attractive and then they can mate.  ;)

Julie
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Kaelin

Regarding the original topic, I think the gender that people tend to "see" takes on a statistical approach (which someone else here mentioned).  In the broader culture, someone wearing a tie is suggested to be male, and wearing a dress is overwhelmingly evidence of someone (at least older than a young child) being female.  Of course, facial features, voice, earrings (and pearl ones in particular are a massive female lean), other jewelry (even certain "bling" carries on a heavy male lean), make-up, and self-identification also contribute to small and large extents, and the size and nature of the effects can vary from person to person.  An observer may be anxious if s/he sees massive leans in each direction from the same person, although realistically, there are other factors to take into account.  For example, it's perhaps not so much that a man wearing a dress is exceedingly unusual, but that the instances of them carry a context that invokes hostility, ridicule, or laughter (hazing, low-brow movies, skits, October 31).

Studies have generally shown that aggression is fairly equal among men and women; it's just that the manifestation of that aggression may tend to be different.  However, we can't say biology is the reason for the difference of the expression of aggression, because social roles tend to shape the way we behave.  Ultimately, though, the notion that women may or may not be better rulers if they were "in charge" distracts from the fact you don't want that type of heirarchy in the first place.  You want the most qualified people (women, men, androgynes, other) filling roles, not the most qualified ones that happen to have certain gender (or a certain skin color, or a certain economic status, or...).  Period.

Regarding media in society, a comprehensive discussion of them is probably suited to another forum.  To some extent, there is actually less consensus.  There are far more channels on TV to choose from, and emerging media such as video games and the Internet (especially the Internet) have facilitated a greater splintering of ideas.  Susan's Place may not have the influence to sway public opinion, but the Internet gives her the reach to help more people than would otherwise be possible for Susan.  The days of Tom Brokaw (and similar figures) are not gone, but they are fading -- there are a lot of personalities that are biting and clawing just to have a fraction of the power that anchors from the big three networks had in the 60's and 70's (this is not to downplay how things are now, but to centralized things were then).  And movies have come a long way from The Birth of a Nation.  Granted, each form of traditional major media (books, radio, music, TV, movies) is heavily controlled by a small number of corporations (which sometimes reach over multiple forms of media), but in the case of TV and movies, it is still an improvement.

As for the US being "socialist," I think there's more truth to the idea that the corporations controls society rather than society controls the corporations.  More accurately, though, I think there's a mix of control by "the people" (who cast the votes) and "money" (which can influence how people cast their votes).  I guess that makes western societies a blend of democracy/republic and plutocracy (the sway of each certainly depending on the particular state/province and country).
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tekla

Golly gosh, that reply has so much bull->-bleeped-<- in it that I'm even at a loss for words.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Natalie3174

Im not sure but If I think about it...I'd say the whole package for men to become a woman. But for a woman it's a matter of hair clothes and hiding the breasts to become a man for the day that is...It would be easier for a woman to cut her hair and put on a false moustach and hide her breasts...Wait a minute.This sounds like what crossdresses do.. Its not easy both ways and it's expensive. To buy the outfits and wigs and all, it cant be cheap..But I know what you mean about women wearing men's clothes....I guess a skirt makes a lot of difference. Only B->-bleeped-<-ipe men seem to get away with wearing skirts from Scotland.
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cindybc

Corporate tieves, political tieves, business tieves, financial tieves, tieves, tieves and dirty old greedy ratz everywhere, I tel ya!!!

The time hath come for ze demis of ze rat tieves. De good ship America is a sinkin folks, now watch all the ratz leave de ship. When the last rat jumps over board Cindy pulls out a tube of crazy glue from her purse. ;D

I like this one from Ashling;  :D

QuoteAbsolutely.  If men were allowed to be effeminate, perhaps we wouldn't need to go to war?  We'd all just chill out, enjoy ourselves, and love each other.

Cindy
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Natalie3174

Regardless of whether they are kilts or skirts . I cant stand men wearing something like that with hairy legs. :D.
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cindybc

Sorry, wasn't meant to be an offence, I shall remove the unwittingly offensive post.

Cindy
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cindybc

I was raised french, My dad was French and my Mom was french and Iroquois and I was funning around with the northern Ontario and Quebec French Accent. Sorry hon I was making fun of my own French, F - r -e - n - n - c - h accent.

I don't go around insulting people and if I do unintentionally I promptly apologise, ask anyone on this board, If anything I go out of my way to try and act as a mediator. m - e - d - i - a - t - o - r
Sorry if there is a language barrier here. I had foster kids that were French, Irish, Ojibwa, English, Dutch, and I am French and Iroquois, Trans and a sensitive and had my fair share of being picked on and bullied stomped and spat on call trash and every other ugly name you could think of, why? Just because I was different. So I am not a stranger to discrimination.

Wanna know more about Cindy? Go read my blog, Cindy's Ramblings Blog

Again I apologize for having offended.

Cindy 
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Natalie3174

Quote from: cindybc on February 26, 2009, 02:05:16 AM
Corporate tieves, political tieves, business tieves, financial tieves, tieves, tieves and dirty old greedy ratz everywhere, I tel ya!!!

The time hath come for ze demis of ze rat tieves. De good ship America is a sinkin folks, now watch all the ratz leave de ship. When the last rat jumps over board Cindy pulls out a tube of crazy glue from her purse. ;D

I like this one from Ashling;  :D

Cindy


Hey I like America. Im almost American. My stepfather is an American and was in the Navy for 35 years. He was nice. My first reading and counting lessons were from Sesame Street..Which I still love. Thanks PBS.
And Last but not least STAR WARS was made by mostly Americans So please dont dis them. There is a lot of good people there! Im always looking forward to new bands and Movies from The US and Canada and I love Sepultura's "Roots" album and their from Brasil. I love their football as well. There is heaps Im thankful for!

Post Merge: February 26, 2009, 03:25:34 AM

I forgot to mention all the friends Ive met there through the Trans scene that have saved my life....And become part of a crowd. It feels good to stick together no matter where we are on the planet!
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cindybc

#34
Me too, I lived in Amarica for a decade, I'm married to an American hon, and the Ratz I speak of are the the greedy people that almost killed America, the Ratz. Once the Ratz abandon ship I take out my crazy glue from my purse to patch the hole in the ship, and then just pass out the tomato cans to all the passengers, (Americans) to bail out the ship and wave by by to those there dirty ratz in the ocean. We can even let them have the life preservers See!  :D

Cindy
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imaz

Sadly the facts are that men have killed tens of millions of human beings in the last century and continue to do so in this one.

Just the deaths suffered by the Soviet Union, China, Germany and Indonesia exceed the present day population of France or Italy.

As for the US, where does one start? I have nothing against the American people but their government is a threat to us all. In light of the extent of their interventions here's a short list: http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html

To kill one human being is as to kill all humanity, to save one human being is as to save all humanity - The Holy Qur'an
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anewlife123

Quote from: Miniar on February 25, 2009, 07:56:27 AM
Having seen two women go at it full force over an earring.... I'm not sure that there would be "less" wars with less men/testosterone in charge.

The Chinese character for "WAR" basically means "two women in one house" ...
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Julie Marie

So, based on the most recent posts, is it safe to say the guy really can't wear anything the girl is wearing but the girl can wear anything the guy is wearing and neither will be seen as trying to present in any way contrary to their birth gender?  :P

Julie
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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cindybc

Personally my take is that back in the fifties and sixties they would have called the guys with the little white frocks and pretty pink butterfly nets if a man went out in public wearing a dress. Even back in the seventies I remember overhearing  a couple of guys sayin, "if yar not sure, kick um between the legs."

I am not certain if those kind of attitudes have changed that much since then, except maybe in the larger cities where dressing weird is more tolerated or common place. I also think it depends largely on attitude and how one presents themselves.

It's easier for a woman wearing men's clothes to pass more inconspicuously then men in women's clothes, for one thing is because today it is a lot more common to see women dressed in men's clothes.
For certain work related reasons and it has become more the style. For example;
# 1  Probably the main reason I think is work related dress codes. Ya don't wear a dress if your working on a construction site for one thing. 
# 2 Public utilities.
# 3 A carpenter.
# 4 A mechanic.
# 5 A truck driver.
# 6 Taxi driver, etc, etc.

The Guys, night clubs, gay bars, special occasions like Halloween, or privacy of home etc, etc. Then go to dressing as guys at the end of the night, unless they are full time TS.

Cindy
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Brielle

@chrysalis

thx for the Katz ref.

"My Captain, My Captain." - The male feminist, anti-pornographer, critic of masculinity and white privilege - Robert Jensen, Journalism Professor from Texas U (Austin)
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