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RE: what some might term, "the opression of masculinity"

Started by Sarah, February 26, 2009, 02:14:47 PM

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Sarah

recently there has been more and more discussion that men are being repressed and even opressed in being able to exppress thier natural needs and tendancies.

I tend to agree with this that this is going on, and I think it's a bad idea.

Men are naturally aggressive.
They want to be, they even need to be.
but in our society, we've been more and more saying that that is not ok.
It used to be that if two guys consented to a fight, it was fine.
Now if either gets into even a freindly fight where they are just venting aggression and laugh it off later, they can both be arrested and charged with fighting.
We tell little boys more and more that it's not ok for them to play with guns and swords and that they have to 'play nice' and not hit and all the other things that males naturally want to do.
We've made horseplay unaceptable and in gym class we are taking away more aggressive activities like dodgeball.
Now even in video games we are saying it's not ok for them to be aggressive.
"If they want to play a violent game we say "oh no" that's not ok and give them some "acceptable" sports game when they want to play war or somthing.

I hate to tell the girls this, but this is a really bad idea.
History repeats itself as this has actually happened before.
There was a time in europe when it was considered unacceptable for men to be aggressive.
They powdered thier faces, fencing was considered a "sport" and not an aggressive one, hunting was going out of style, men wore hose and lace and makup...

The result was a high rate of sudden violent acts.
men would go crazy not being able to express oneself.
they would sometimes just randomly get into fights or hit people or even kill people.

and there ended up following this period being a very violent one partly perhaps due to tha backlash of all the pent up masculine frustration for so long.

I'm sorry to those girls who don't like it, but it's all right to be a male. to be aggressive. to be dominant. and for males to express that.
It's a really really stupid idea to try to fight human nature or bend it to our own fashions.
We are still animals after all...
And it isn't the place of women to decide what is acceptable behavior of men.

-Sara
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mina.magpie

Bring back armed duels I say. There's a depressing lack of sword-play in the world today ;D

And I'm not joking. I agree that men need channels for their natural warrior/hunter/dominator-type instincts. Allowing those to run amok at business and governmental level is obviously a bad idea, as we're coming to learn the hard way, but on a smaller scale, under controlled circumstances, the boys should be able to get some ... exercise.

You might even have a few girls join in.  ;D

Mina.
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SarahFaceDoom

I know you're joking, but there are people who believe this sort of thing.  And it never fails to make me laugh.  Why should our views on gender expression be so limited?  Masculinity can be expressed in a ton of diffrent ways.  Ways that aren't violent, and harmful for society.
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placeholdername

I'm not so sure about the joking considering some of the other threads.
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SarahFaceDoom

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Miniar

Every time I see posts like these, I feel a little ashamed that I want to be "a real boy" as it seems like I should act out that masculinity by being aggressive, and while I have moments where I'll flail around the house and announce that so and so needs a beating with a clue-by-for, my aggression pretty much ends there. My hubby's a big softie too, and that doesn't make him any less of a man.



"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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Sarah

Well that's not really the point.
The point is it is not the place of women to decide how what type of expression is good enough for men.
we are not men. we have no idea.
A woman looks at a man through the eyes of a woman, not the eyes of a man.
I think it's sad that you would judge them as wrong for wanting to express themselves.
I was not condoning rape or war for instance, but why shouldn't they be able to have a consentual fight with each other if they wish? And not be taken to jail for it?

-sara

Post Merge: February 27, 2009, 03:47:39 PM

An interesting issue here is that what those who are unsypathetic seem to not understand is that human nature does not simply go away simply because it's uncomfortable or inconvenient.
You simply can't make every man a soft teddy bear.
Some of them need to express their aggression, and if you don't allow them to do so in a healthy way that actually satisfies that need to their satisfaction (not women's) all one is doing is trying to cork a force of nature, until it finally explodes.
People are different. It means nothing that one man doesn't need that. Others do.

-sara
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Miniar

Quote from: Sarah on February 27, 2009, 03:37:07 PMThe point is it is not the place of women to decide how what type of expression is good enough for men.

If it really isn't your place then maybe you should even refrain from making these sort of judgements;

Quote from: SarahMen are naturally aggressive.
They want to be, they even need to be.

No matter whether the prejudice is positive or negative, it's still prejudice.



"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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Sarah

It's wrong to speak up on behalf of friends?
I don't think so

--
Conclusions based on observations are prejudice...?
Even if they were, prejudice=bad?

Miniar, I'm not exactly sure what your argument is.
You seem to be more attacking me than the issue.
It's kinda a roundabout way of addressing the issue if at all.
Do you oppose allowing men healthy and consentual ways to express their Warrior/Hunter/Domineering instincts?
I mean is there something wrong with them having a consentual brawl, or playing dodgeball, or hockeyfights, or violent videogames?


-sara
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whatsername

Quote from: Sarah on February 27, 2009, 03:37:07 PMwhy shouldn't they be able to have a consentual fight with each other if they wish? And not be taken to jail for it?

Quotehuman nature does not simply go away simply because it's uncomfortable or inconvenient.

I don't think it's "human nature" for men to be aggressive.  That's a very specific gender role they're brought up into.  Masculinity does not have to be violent, it has become that way because of our militarized culture.

There is individual variation in "aggression", for men as well as women.
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Just Kate

Quote from: whatsername on February 28, 2009, 12:07:28 AM
I don't think it's "human nature" for men to be aggressive.  That's a very specific gender role they're brought up into.  Masculinity does not have to be violent, it has become that way because of our militarized culture.

There is individual variation in "aggression", for men as well as women.

You beat me to it, but it bears repeating.  There is little to no difference in aggressiveness between men and women, only how it is displayed.  Ergo, men are not significantly more aggressive than women.
Ill no longer be defined by my condition. From now on, I'm just, Kate.

http://autumnrain80.blogspot.com
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Alyssa M.

First I want to say that it's plain (to me, and it has been for a long time) that by and large we live in a patriarchal society. Women's contributions are generally denigrated. That is, when women contribute work or ideas they are ignored, whereas men expect and are given credit. Being in a highly respected and highly male-dominated field I see this all the time. So many women I know have been told they can't be or shouldn't be or aren't cut out to be phycisicts, whereas I, being seen aas a man, have always been encouraged even when I didn't perform well.

Nevertheless, that doesn't justify some plainly anti-male policies that we have in this society. Probably the worst is the welfare system, which rewards poor women who divorce their husbands, or never marry in the first place. If you are a poor woman you get more support if you don't have a husband, especially not one that works. That is reasonable up to a level, but it's skewed so that it makes it worthwhile to tell your husband to take a hike. So the welfare system basically says to poor males that they are not wanted or needed. Is it any wonder, considering that black people are generally poorer, that so many black men are incarcerated? It's a horrible policy that does wrong by everybody by denigrating the roll of men.

The second problem is in modern primary schools. Certainly there have been many problems with girls' education, but I think that to accommodate girls, we have left a lot of boys behind. I think everybody loses from the restriction on play -- yes, fewer children are hurt if they can't play in the brook by the school during recess, but they have a lot less fun and learn a lot less. Especially boys. And classrooms need to strike a balance between the more energetic and competitive attributes of boys (as an average) and the more focused and collaborative attitudes of girls. Many teachers have realized that they can't just pay attention to the same boys that attract all the attention, and have to pay attention to girls too. But I think there needs to be a balance where the attention-grabbers can have their way at times, and the quieter souls can have their way at other times. Okay, this is a little harder to quantify. But boys have definitely slipped in performance in American primary and secondary schools, while girls, who once lagged, have now advanced beyond the boys. We ought to be able to educate both boys and girls well.

How this plays out in other countries I have no idea; these are pretty specifically American issues.

~Alyssa
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another.

   - Anatole France
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Miniar

Quote from: Sarah on February 27, 2009, 04:14:25 PMDo you oppose allowing men healthy and consentual ways to express their Warrior/Hunter/Domineering instincts?
I mean is there something wrong with them having a consentual brawl, or playing dodgeball, or hockeyfights, or violent videogames?

I disapprove of the assumption that men "Need" this expression to function or that they're being barred from doing so by women in general.

Also, as someone who's active in several different subcultures, one in particular where domination/domineering things are active, it seems more like both men and women have similar needs to dominate and to submit. No one wants to be "on top" all the time, regardless of sex/gender.

The problem with brawling is consent. Hey, why not have an "optional" karate/tai-kwon-do (or however you spell it) class for boys(and what girls want it too)? (or how about you blokes(and what chicks want to too) go attend one of these classes) Instead of letting them start a fight on their own where there's a chance that the one that gets his ass whooped claims non-consent, or worse, the bully claims consent.



"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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tekla

I think all too often that energy, drive and ambition are seen as being potentially  violent, and all too often, with a lack of proper outlets can become violent.  It need not be that way. 

And for the record, though this kind of behavior manifest in boys more than girls on a statistical level, it does not mean that all boys have it, nor are all girls free from it.  Many girls at roughly the same ages (early teen) have more energy, drive and ambition then normal outlets in today's society offer them far too much of the time.

I would often read to my students from things like woman's diaries of their frontier journey west and it was not uncommon for them to say something like "Our wagon train was headed by Mister Johnson and a young man of 13" or 14.  Hell, 16 was too old for the Pony Express.  And, as someone who has been a boy at that age, and raised kids though that age, the idea of taking a 14 year old boy and telling him 'Kid, walk to California from Kansas City and then walk back and get some of that energy out will you." And, it took just as much energy for the boys and girls in the wagon trains to walk out to Oregon behind them.

There are too many kids who have more energy then they can contain sitting listening to mandatory diversity education and DARE crap and I'm sure they are bored.  It's just that too often there is far too little other activities to take up the slack, use up that energy, and both challenge and reward them. 

I did a lot of stuff like skiing, mountain climbing, wilderness hiking and backpacking, extreme swimming, and mountain biking with my kids, but others can not, or will not take the time to do that, or lack the skills and finances to do that. Or don't even realize its there I guess.  I did that stuff because it's what I did when I was growing up so I knew how to do it and teach it.  I also was way into dirt bikes as a kid, that I skipped on my kids. 

And not all kids are like that, nor are they all that way either, it comes in humans with a huge difference in ratios.  I also, when I wasn't being real dumb on a mountain, or being very stupid out in the desert, or playing 'you bet your life' with the never Pacific Ocean, I loved to read, write, make models and put together Heathkit electronic stuff.  My kids did the reading, some writing, but they were far more into making music - so its not all active, but it is a challenge in some way.

Team sports are supposed to be the be all and end all to this problem, but they only work in some cases.  My younger one loved them, did sports as much as he could.  My older one was like me, didn't like it, didn't do it - but he did get off on debate and went all the way to all state a number of times.  Its important to recognize difference and let it flourish.

A lot of this depends on the parents.  I'm sure that I drove my parents nuts, and most parents today would not let me do what a lot of us did then.  We were 16, (very early 70s) and taking off for a week at a time to do a surfin safari, or go out to the desert, or go climb at Pinnacles National Monument and other places or go up to Tahoe to ski or backpack depending on the season.  But I know a lot of parents of kids today, and even when I had my kids that were far more protective of them I guess.  When my oldest one was 16 - we were in Iowa then - all his friends and him got this crazy idea to go up to the Boundary Waters canoe area and canoe to Canada (I didn't think they would make it that far, but heck, its good to have goals).  Is it dangerous, oh yeah, its total wilderness and yes you can get good and lost, there are wild beasts with bad tempers, and the first provision of wilderness travel is always in effect which is "if you get hurt, even just a little bit, you could be very ->-bleeped-<-ed in a very big way."  Out of the 15 that were going to go only 6 made the trip and that was all due to parents saying no. 

They made it back fine, a little banged up, very waterlogged, and with a very real sense that they had done something cool, something hard, they made it through and all that, and its the kind of thing you always take with you.  From that point on that trip was a reference point for all of them. I'm sitting here now thinking back to my HS trips and the stuff we did, and its a good feeling.  And, once he had learned he could do that, he repeated some of our other past trips with his bud, going out to the Badlands and Black Hills, and Mount Rushmore, going down to Missouri and the Ozarks and doing Jack's Fork and the Current River wild rivers canoe deal.

But all these things are there, and they are more acceptable than being violent to others, or your self (I see more of that in here, then violence toward others) but it does take effort on people's part to make them happen.

It's OK to have energy, drive and ambition, matter of fact, its a lot better than not having them.  You just have to learn how to use it for good and not bad, just like anything else.


http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/superior/bwcaw/



http://www.nps.gov/ozar/
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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SarahFaceDoom

Ugh.  I don't even know where to start with this thread.  I feel like I've stepped into a time warp.  Like I said before, Masculinity can be expressed in a lot of diffrent ways.  And it's not always expressed just by men.  Mascunlinity CAN manifest itself in fighting.  But that's not intrinsically what it is.  Nor is it at all wise to just decide all men need a good fight.

And it's beyond the pale to suggest that we need a society where men are not punished for fighting in public and women are.

As for the supposed inequalities in the system that favor women, how about we get women equal with men first and THEN we can have an honest discussion about that.  But right now, when women still don't make as much money as a man doing the same job, I don't have a lot of sympathy for the anti-welfare arguement.  Given the cost of healthcare, and the low amount of wages offered to women--a poor single mother with children is going to have about as much trouble in society as society can dish out.  It IS still a patriarchal society.  A lot of men STILL don't treat us as equals.

So you will have to excuse me if I'm not that concerned with any kind of oppression that they may feel, because it's not even a tenth of what we go through every day.  I mean seriously...boo hoo hoo that their role models are diminishing.  Ask a girl about her heroes.  They are usually going to be family or people she knows, and that's because for most of her life, the only public women she's known are pop singers, who the media usually takes from being perfect virgins to complete whores. 

You want to talk about the oppression of masculinity, I don't think femininity even fully exists right now.
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SomeMTF

I thought that violent and inmature masculinity as a big problem in western civilization not something that was ''opressed''.   
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Sarah

for the record, I never made any stated definition of what I believed to be "real men".
I've only said that they should be allowed and encouraged to express themselves in a consensual way that satisfies those urges.

As to weather those are a need or not; well my definition of a need is a bit broader than some as I consider spiritual needs, needs as well.

Besides, if I were to look at us as animals, and I do, Males have been behaving this way for like several thousand years. Why would I think that they would suddenly change this behavior in 1 or 2 decades?

That this is a learned behavior? the "Nature vs. Nurture" argument?
I don't place much stock in nurture, as my own experience with testosterone has shown me that it is pretty much liquid aggression.

Besides, all other males in mammals behave in aggressive ways and fight and roughhouse with each other as a routine thing....
Somehow humans are exempt from that?
That isn't a very scientific view.

I would agree with and thank Alyssa and Tekla for their contributions in this.

That is exactly the kind of thing I was getting at and I thank you both for contributing your experience and phrasing it better than I could.

That is I think what may have been hinted at...
We should work for the betterment of both sexes, not just one or the other exclusively.
Besides, as was pointed out, this is mostly an American problem.

One of the attitudes that I'm hearing from some people here is that because of the behavior of men and such in the past as well as the present, we should do nothing to help other issues with regards to men as it was "men" who were the problem.

But I might point out that if we say there are 3 billion men or more or less in the world, all of them are not responsible for the actions of a few. even a few million.
and quite frankly it's just as much the responsibility of women for going along with their antics in the first place.
As Helen Keller said, "Women have rights. All of them. All we have to do is take them."

There are more women in the world than men.
it seems a bit shortsighted to say "Men bad, Women Good"

-sara
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