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Are you prone to believing teleological arguments?

Started by mina.magpie, March 02, 2009, 07:06:33 AM

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mina.magpie

[Ewan Callaway] Humans may be hard-wired to believe in creation (02 Mar 2009, New Scientist)

Some new research reported at New Scientist today points at humans being prone to believing that things have hidden purpose or design to them, rather than believing purely in cause and effect. The researchers argue that this predisposes people to believing in Creation.

So I'm curious now: How often do you catch yourself in a teleological statement? I've caught myself on the Ozone Layer one more than a few times, and every now and again they do tend to slip into my thinking or writing when I'm not paying attention.

So do you think teleologically? Do you think that we are prone to this sort of thinking? If so why?

Mina.
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imaz

Never really understood these arguments.

There is irrefutable proof of the existence of evolution and of the Big Bang. How is that incompatible with belief?

The whole "Singularity" concept could be taken in many ways surely?
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placeholdername

Quote from: imaz on March 02, 2009, 09:08:20 AM
There is irrefutable proof of the existence of evolution and of the Big Bang.


There is not "irrefutable" proof of those things.  Evolution Theory and Big Bang theory are both models of what happened, and they are currently the most accurate models of what happened that we have come up with.  In fact, there are many alternative theories to the Big Bang that are still being debated (look up inflation theory if you're curious).  The most likely scenario is that the current theories are wrong and better ones will come along in the future.
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imaz

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placeholdername

Quote from: imaz on March 02, 2009, 09:49:32 AM
Surely fossil evidence is fairly compelling?

The thing is that evolution is not a repeatable experiment (just as the big bang is not repeatable).  We can look at the evidence and say "this makes sense", but you can't do it over again to test if the theory holds true, which is a key requirement of proof.

I'm not saying I'm against evolution or anything, it's just important not to say things are irrefutable when they're not.
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Miniar

Skepticism is a big part of my nature. It's ingrained in the way I work.
I don't believe in meanings to life or that there's some supernatural source to all things living.
However, I don't think that all is perfectly physical/scientifically in nature.
I think both theories are inherently flawed, but equally necessary for human beings to function.



"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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RebeccaFog


Nothing is true, so why should I believe anything?
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tekla

Nothing is real, and nothing to get hung about, as John used to sing.  In the end, if you follow the science to as far as you can get - you'll arrive pretty much at probability and probability alone.  Old Uncle Albert once quipped that "God does not play dice with the universe," but he might be wrong about that, as the most fundamental things seem, at root, to be almost endless series of random events. 

Indeed, we hate to think that the universe itself is just a reflection of what we know in our own lives, that life is a pretty damn random series of events, and what seems important turns out not to be, a chance encounter can change your life, or end it, and indeed its comforting to think that in all that gooey mess, there is a reason for it, a purpose behind it, a hand guiding and shaping the outcome and us with it.  Someone more powerful than probability, some hand that in some mysterious way is rolling them laughing bones in such a way that we can beat the house. 

Easy to see where that would be attractive to say the least.  That something that we all see everyday - indeed some of us are consumed by it - that good things happen to the worst people we've ever met while the really nice and open and good people seem to have to suffer though nothing but crap, setbacks and hard times.  Why the nice little lady going down the street for some snacks for her kids get caught in a crossfire and gets gunned down in front of the corner store, while people who have really, really done great wrong, killed many, abuse thousands, in some cases millions, well they live in nice big houses, with sailboats and people to guard them?  To think that there is some purpose to that greater than our simple understanding is - has to be - comforting. 

I think that some of the Eastern Religions (in capital letters) are a bit more flexable and less prone to extremism then the Western Trilogy, but they offer far less in terms of absolute concrete examples that the three religions of the book offer.  In all three of those, there is a god, god is god, and god has a reason for doing what he is doing, and you better not ask why.  But for sure that kind of 'reason for events', coupled as all three of them are to a very specific and exact kind of heaven that you too can obtain (thus not only not dying - a pretty neat trick if I do say so myself - but in the process somehow coming to know the why of all of this) with a roadmap for you to follow to get you there. 

It's easy to see the allure in that.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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shannonts

Quote from: Rebis on March 02, 2009, 01:54:04 PM
Nothing is true, so why should I believe anything?

No offense, but what you just stated is an absolute. By saying nothing is true. You are effectively saying that that is true. So there! Theres something for you to believe in!!

But as far as this topic goes. Your argument makes sense. I dont believe in any religion. I am an agnostic. But on the other hand, evolution is far from irrefutable. Like every other theory, it is just that. A theory.
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NicholeW.

Quote from: tekla on March 02, 2009, 03:34:10 PM
It's easy to see the allure in that.

Indeed it is. Just as one doesn't have a hard time in realizing why Mussolini and Hitler and even to some degree Stalin and Mao and GWB and his gang of thugs and Rush and O'Reilly get their followings either. Lovely, no, in an uncertain world to have people expound sureties for the faint-hearted?

I mean you see the same thing, imo, among the more lock-step groups of transsexed/transsexing women and the occasional man who wish to prescribe, as though it were some sort of holy writ, that all women (or men) behave ... or want or do x-thing. Fascinatingly, the things they all do are exactly the things that the prescribers find most comfortable in their own lives.

No wonder we take science often enough and dress it up in religious clothing. "I have discovered the secret to economics, biology, all human being and relationship, the universe and everything!" Eur-fraking-eka!!!

I'm sure it feels really good to have those sureties that I am absolutely correct on my life and ways of thinking simply because I follow someone's doctrinal line. Heck, even Krishna and Buddha set down a few thousand dos and don'ts apiece!

It's really difficult, apparently, for most humans to realize that they are not "special" in some way and have that in common with sea-slugs, viruses, minerals and fruit-flies. *shrug* Talk about lack of self-esteem!! :laugh:

And I definitely believe I'm Mom's daughter. I just try to keep in mind that I am not her only daughter and I have trillions of siblings, not all human or even animal and vegetable, She favors as much as She does me. Just another woman. Not a lot of glory in that, is there? :)

Nichole


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Brielle

Nietzsche said that in every philosophy, it isn't long before the philospher's 'conviction' steps on the scene - I'm assuming he meant with the exception of his own...

Quoteand every now and again they do tend to slip into my thinking or writing when I'm not paying attention.

To me that's the secret of finding truths, to let go of rational attention & overcome the crystallized inheritance.

Trying to explain my belief is like trying to explain what the color red is, without comparing it to anything. I can try and make a good shot at sounding authentic perhaps, but in the end, I paint myself into a corner and then I learn that my face is what red is.

QuoteI made a hundred connections of truth in a second, travelling rivulets of time and back in a dozen directions, and all the images and moments and words were right there hovering in front of me - then I blinked and realized I was looking a sunflower and a breeze was blowing through my hair. And I turned around to walk away, but I couldn't - I had to look back at the sunflower again, and on further inspection I saw a bee hovering amongst the pistil bits and I thought, "Hmm... "
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RebeccaFog

Quote from: Kelsi on March 02, 2009, 10:52:54 PM
No offense, but what you just stated is an absolute. By saying nothing is true. You are effectively saying that that is true. So there! Theres something for you to believe in!!

But as far as this topic goes. Your argument makes sense. I dont believe in any religion. I am an agnostic. But on the other hand, evolution is far from irrefutable. Like every other theory, it is just that. A theory.

I am the Trickster.  My gibberish holds many meanings for those who have the desire to seek them out.



Post Merge: March 03, 2009, 11:00:26 AM

Quote from: Nichole on March 03, 2009, 12:10:49 AM

It's really difficult, apparently, for most humans to realize that they are not "special" in some way and have that in common with sea-slugs, viruses, minerals and fruit-flies. *shrug* Talk about lack of self-esteem!! :laugh:


Nichole

I hope that's the explanation for the sludge dripping off my backside.
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NicholeW.

Quote from: Rebis on March 03, 2009, 10:52:59 AM
I hope that's the explanation for the sludge dripping off my backside.

Well, it AN explanation, not sure it's the rational one though!! :laugh:

Nikki
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armozel

I wouldn't say that people are predefined to accept teleological arguments, rather that such arguments seem intuitive, so they're easier to accept. Remember, many scientific theories and paradigms haven't been all too easy to integrate for most (even the most willing of learners) as much of the specific mechanisms involved either are not perceptible at a personal level or depend on a "longview" to grasp. It's why things like Natural Selection and Spontaneous Order seem magical as they're not obvious at fight glance, and even when noticed harder still to understand their details (much of which we're still learning about).

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Saraloop

Yeh Theology is appealing in many ways; it's comforting to think that everything isn't worthless.
But believing you know how things are in reality through "proof" is comforting in its own way. So both sides are alluring for different reasons. There is both religion in theology and science alike... just maybe under different forms.

The truth is that we don't know. We can only come up with  beliefs, assumptions and theories. In the end we are unable to know true reality. We only know what we have experienced with our senses and analytical capabilities.. as if that's enough to comprehend something that seems so beyond us.

Seeing it as a mystery makes more sense to me I find. No need for beliefs.
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Alyssa M.

Why of course, there is a reason for everything under the sun! For example: what about war?

Though war may seem a bloody curse, it is a blessing in reverse. When cannons roar, both rich and poor by danger are united, till every wrong is righted. Philosophers make evident the point that I have cited: 'Tis war makes equal -- as it were -- the noble and the commoner. Thus war improves relations.

Now on to conjugations!

Okay, for real, I don't ascribe purpose to much of anything, though I search for it to some extent in life, and do tend to believe it exists in the universe. I just think that ascribing it to anything in nature is the height of arrogance. I live with the assumption that life has purpose, but I don't believe it's knowable. And I see the kind of statements cited in the article to be completely absurd (bringing to mind Dr. Pangloss).

~Alyssa
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another.

   - Anatole France
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Saraloop

It's usually the commoners that get the bad deal out of war. The leaders are quick to let citizens and troops die for some supposed good.  I'll agree that that in most cases, certain events may bring about some form of good within all that bad, but that kind of philosophy is very dangerous... the pros of war cannot possibly outweigh the cons. Certain wars are necessary for sure, but most are disadvantageous as a whole, to the human race.  Though, I think mistakes are necessary in order to realize the right path. I hope one day everyone will have understood that mistake enough for it to stop.
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Suzy

I will plead guilty.  I do believe that, as we look around and explore this awesome universe in all of its beauty and complexities, we would have to be intellectually dishonest to say that nothing has a purpose or design. 

Kristi
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Alyssa M.

Quote from: Saraloop on March 27, 2009, 11:39:46 AM
It's usually the commoners that get the bad deal out of war. The leaders are quick to let citizens and troops die for some supposed good.  I'll agree that that in most cases, certain events may bring about some form of good within all that bad, but that kind of philosophy is very dangerous... the pros of war cannot possibly outweigh the cons. Certain wars are necessary for sure, but most are disadvantageous as a whole, to the human race.  Though, I think mistakes are necessary in order to realize the right path. I hope one day everyone will have understood that mistake enough for it to stop.

Click on the >>link<< in my post (the previous one or this one). Then read the second half of my post.

Have you seen or read Candide? If you had, you would have learned the Great Purpose in Snakes, War, Latin Grammar, Syphilis, Earthquakes, Storms in Lisbon Harbor, the Inquisition, and the Chopping Off of Ladies' Buttocks. ;)

(If you haven't read it, disregard my post and read it. It's fun.)

~Alyssa
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another.

   - Anatole France
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