F2M Historical Data?

[queerunity]

I was wondering if anyone knew of any ancient culture that embraced F2M's, there seems to be lots of historical acceptance or evidence of M2F but I have yet to see any F2M stuff.

[NicholeW.]

There've been some archeological digs in the Cuscasus, Crimea, Georgia, Armenia and western steppe areas of Russia and other states in that area that show women warriors: possibly the source of Amazon stories.

Otherwise, I can't help ya. You might try google scholar.

Nichole

[tekla]

There are folk songs in the Irish and American traditions about women posing as men to go to war, like this Irish one, called "Jack-a-Roe"  (Spellings of this name vary)

There was a wealthy merchant, in London he did dwell
He had a Beautiful daughter, the truth to you we'll tell
Oh the truth to you we'll tell

She had sweethearts a plenty, and men of high degree
But none but Jack the sailor, her true love ever be
Oh her true love ever be

Jackie's gone a sailing, with trouble on his mind
He's left his native country and his darling girl behind
Oh his darling girl behind

She went down to a tailor shop and dressed in man's array
She climbed on board a vessel to convey herself away
Oh convey herself away

Before you get on board sir, your name we'd like to know
She smiled on her countenance, they called me Jack-A-Roe
Oh they called me Jack-A-Roe

I see your waist is slender, your fingers they are small
Your cheeks too red and rosy to face the cannonball
Oh to face the cannonball

I know my waist's to slender, my fingers they are small
but it would not make me tremble to see ten thousand fall
Oh to see ten thousand fall

The war soon being over she went and looked around
among the dead and wounded her darling boy she found
Oh her darling boy she found

She picked him up on in her arms and carried him to the town
she sent for a physician to quickly heal his wounds
Oh to quickly heal his wounds

This couple they got married so well they did agree
This couple they got married so why not you and me?
Oh why not you and me?
Oh why not you and me?

Or this American one, called "Cruel War"

The cruel war is raging, johnny has to fight
I want to be with him from morning to night.
I want to be with him, it grieves my heart so,
Wont you let me go with you?
No, my love, no.

Tomorrow is sunday, monday is the day
That your captain will call you and you must obey.
Your captain will call you it grieves my heart so,
Wont you let me go with you?
No, my love, no.

Ill tie back my hair, mens clothing Ill put on,
Ill pass as your comrade, as we march along.
Ill pass as your comrade, no one will ever know.
Wont you let me go with you?
No, my love, no.

Oh johnny, oh johnny, I fear you are unkind
I love you far better than all of mankind.
I love you far better than words can ere express
Wont you let me go with you?
Yes, my love, yes.

Yes, my love, yes.

[Dennis]

The book, FTM, by Holly (now Aaron) Devor has some stories about women living as men, for war and just generally (like Billy Tipton).

Dennis

[tekla]

You might start with The Chalice and the Blade by Riane Eisler.   It looks at some of those places and digs that Nichole mentions.

[NicholeW.]

You might start with The Chalice and the Blade by Riane Eisler.   It looks at some of those places and digs that Nichole mentions.

True!! Yes.

And .... it's a fantasic read and well-written for an 'academic' book.

N~

[tekla]

Yeah she she gets all political at the end, but the first few chapters are not bad.

[whatsername]

I haven't actually read this book but I think Transgender Warriors: Making History from Joan of Arc to Dennis Rodman; By Leslie Feinberg might interest you as well.  I've read hir books Stone Butch Blues and Drag King Dreams and ze's an excellent writer.  While it doesn't solely focus on ancient cultures there is some of that in there, and while it doesn't focus exclusively on F2M there is definitely some of that as well.  That's all I got though.

Found this article at the Bilerico Project: http://www.bilerico.com/2008/02/transgender_history_trans_expression_in.php

[Northern Jane]

Among the Native Americans women who chose to live a male role were nearly as common as the opposite and were well respected for their courage. It seems to be predominantly in the Judeo-Christian and middle eastern cultures that crossing between genders was regarded as somehow "wrong".

[tekla]

Among the Native Americans women who chose to live a male role were nearly as common as the opposite and were well respected for their courage.

More than likely not true.  The practice existed in some tribes, but by no means in all tribes.  And there is scant evidence to assume it was 'common.'

[Celamunda]

I live as a woman in computer role playing games. It is as far as I can allow myself these days. O for those chicago days.....

[krptcmschfmkr128]

I know there were often women who lived as men for various social priveleges as well, such as being accepted as authors, though I don't know if that quite falls under the same category.