So why not?

[cindybc]

Hi Interalia, perhaps you are a sensitive, sensing things that most others around you do not, profound sensings (ESP). There is another name for that *Empathy.* Great Spirit or God if you wish, gives some of his children certain gifts for carrying out different tasks that will require such gifts. A spiritual tool for clearing a path before you for others to follow.

This could be in some ways like trying to herd cats when dealing with beings of free will, each intent on blazing their own trails no mater what the consequences, lost in the darkness of deceit and lies meted out by the tin gods sitting on their tin thrones.

What capacity one wishes to use those gifts is up to that individual to choose. He/she will chose what ever task she/he believes they can best serve. But remember hun, unfortunately not all will want to follow the piper, that is the frustrating, discouraging and most hurtful part of trying to carry out our missions. But it is a following which one can never turn their back on once they have chosen it.

I pray for your success and a safe journey, may Great Spirit guide and protect you.     

Cindy

[hayden.]

The struggle is between the life my GID wants me to live and living a normal life.

everyone's definition of 'normal' differs, there's no one set definition for 'normality.'
the life your GID wants you to live could be your normality (only if you felt so, of course).
it's harder for me to understand because personally, it's a 'do-or-die' type thing, i don't feel i have much of a choice in transitioning.
but i don't have to understand, and kudos to you for actually being able to manage it.

though what you said can also be interpreted as all of us who transitioned lead abnormal lives.

oh yes and this part is specifically for non-ops, so i'll be on my way.

[Yasuko]

  why not: mainly because of the cost... its sooo much money

  how i cope:  I just accept that im not really like evryone else, im different, like a different species.~

[SarahFaceDoom]

it's harder for me to understand because personally, it's a 'do-or-die' type thing, i don't feel i have much of a choice in transitioning.

I always wonder about this line of thought, and just how constructive it is.  When you hold this view, you're positioning your gender as something that happened to you, in the way that someone might talk about getting hit by lightning.  Is it better to take it as this wild thing that you've been afflicted with.  Or better to own it by saying that this is how you are, and transitioning was your ownership of that fact.  I mean, a lot of people don't reveal their true self through their entire lives.  They'll die strangers to everyone, even themselves.  But in a way we're kind of of the stock for whom we said "enough" and went about the business of being ourselves.  There's power there in that action.  Power that you can be proud of and use to hold your head up high when you're confronted with others.

And I just wonder if the "I had no choice in the matter" view is ceding too much.

Surely it is a delicate thing to sort of march around.  But I think it splices pretty well.  You are who you are, and while that is something you were born with--the ways in which you express that self honestly and truthfully to the world is a personal decision.

We all have gender identity, but not all of us have gender expression.

[FairyGirl]

I always wonder about this line of thought, and just how constructive it is.  When you hold this view, you're positioning your gender as something that happened to you, in the way that someone might talk about getting hit by lightning.  Is it better to take it as this wild thing that you've been afflicted with.  Or better to own it by saying that this is how you are, and transitioning was your ownership of that fact.  I mean, a lot of people don't reveal their true self through their entire lives.  They'll die strangers to everyone, even themselves.  But in a way we're kind of of the stock for whom we said "enough" and went about the business of being ourselves.  There's power there in that action.  Power that you can be proud of and use to hold your head up high when you're confronted with others.

And I just wonder if the "I had no choice in the matter" view is ceding too much.

Surely it is a delicate thing to sort of march around.  But I think it splices pretty well.  You are who you are, and while that is something you were born with--the ways in which you express that self honestly and truthfully to the world is a personal decision.

We all have gender identity, but not all of us have gender expression.

Very wise words to contemplate, thank you 

[kody2011]

Why: I haven't seen a doctor, don't have the money, and resources in my town are limited.

Coping: I must admit that I used to not cope well, I was a self mutilator (a cutter), but have moved more towards writing and reading about others like myself. Just being on this site is a huge way to cope for me.

[Susan]

Are non-ops pre ops? certainly some who have responded but if a non-op in a bad emotional and financial situation becomes into a "good situation" has that changed the psyche or the the opportunity, and they can become ops. I don't see myself as non-op, but more unable op. So if we want labels, do we have unable ops are a sub-species of ops and non-opps are a separate phylogeny?

Non-ops are identified from Preops on the basis that they either would not have the surgery even if they could, or on the basis that some medical, psychological, or other condition prevents them from completing the surgical process. Money is not one of those factors. So if someone would have the surgery if only they had the money, then they would indeed be considered preop for the purposes of this web site.

And if our beloved Susan restricts this to those who are only non-op for health reason.  That is her call, but I like being here because I am non-op by choice.  And cost is the determining factor.

I am not restricting it in any way. I am just clarifying that money by it's self is not sufficient to make someone a non-op,but someone's choice is. I base this on my own condition. I have not yet had SRS/GRS due to money, but I would have it the moment the funds are available. So on that basis I still consider myself pre-op.

If you knew my financial situation, the possibility of affording SRS is somewhere between Never and when Hell freezes over.

You decide if it's something that's possible for you or not. You identify yourself as non-op or not. You must decide if you will ever have surgery or not. That's is the sole deciding factor. I am just saying that a current lack of money by it's self does not make one a non-op.

[cindybc]

Tanks for the clarification. There was once upon a time I never thought I would find the funds to the means to get the surgery so I resigned myself to being the best me I could be, but then I once thought the same thing with having a relationship with another species of the human race which I thought, never, period.

Working part time as a social worker and receiving a small disability pension sure didn't make me a very good candidate for getting surgery but then I got both the surgery and a mate. Never say never. So I think preop was quite appropriate label for a maybe never.

Cindy

[SarahFaceDoom]

I think lack of funds can definitely spur the conversation of being non-op.  If you don't have funds, you may be trying to learn to accept the situation of not having the surgery, more than you're preparing to have the surgery.  I don't think non-op has to be a monolithic station of everyone being completely so sure in what they are there.

And it seems like for many people here who bring up money, it's not really about their funds, it's about the percieved value of the operation being too low to them versus the cost.

And so I think value is a perfectly acceptable reason to be traveling down the non-op road.

[cindybc]

Value I got from Dr Brasard. Pain and other complications? none, discomfort and was walking around the day after the surgery and completely healed in four weeks. It is major surgery, I was an exception to the many,but any post op I know are happy with the results they have. I am not trying to sell anything here just tellin the way it was for me. 

As for having children? Nothing more I wish I could have experienced in my life, but would have been to old to conceive when I got the surgery anyway. I maybe was one of the lucky ones, I have had the opportunity to have11 children in my care through out the years, about as close to mother hood I could ever hope for and I loved those children like they were my own.

Now I have the inestimable gift of living the life of a woman sharing her life with a mate. Ten years ago I never would have dreamed I would ever see this day. My life has been good regardless of all the pit falls and disasters, much of which I was mostly to blame for for making the wrong choices. For once in my life I mad the right choice.

Cindy

[heatherrose]

You can plaster a label on an elephant,
proclaming it to be a bunny and make it stick
if you twist the definitions and conditions enough.
This is the problem with labels.
I hauled 1/8 of a cord of split firewood in my 924 Porsch
a few times, does that make it a pick-up truck?
It was not what the manufacture ever intended the vehicle
to be used for but I saw that it had the potential to suit
my needs and I used it as I saw fit.
For all intents and purposes, at the time, it was MY pick-up truck.

Interalia Doll, if I may ask...In your heart of hearts if your God
hadn't laid a guilt trip on you, requesting that you "detransition"
and you had the resources would you have the surgery to
"cure" your dysphoria?

Should a sweet inocent baby with a cleft lip be denighed the surgery
nessasary to give them a smile that God obviously
never intended for them to have?

[SarahFaceDoom]

Value I got from Dr Brasard. Pain and other complications? none, discomfort and was walking around the day after the surgery and completely healed in four weeks. It is major surgery, I was an exception to the many,but any post op I know are happy with the results they have. I am not trying to sell anything here just tellin the way it was for me. 

As for having children? Nothing more I wish I could have experienced in my life, but would have been to old to conceive when I got the surgery anyway. I maybe was one of the lucky ones, I have had the opportunity to have11 children in my care through out the years, about as close to mother hood I could ever hope for and I loved those children like they were my own.

Now I have the inestimable gift of living the life of a woman sharing her life with a mate. Ten years ago I never would have dreamed I would ever see this day. My life has been good regardless of all the pit falls and disasters, much of which I was mostly to blame for for making the wrong choices. For once in my life I mad the right choice.

Cindy

Are you making a commission on SRS sales or something?

How did you get value from Dr. Broussard?  I don't understand your meaning there.

When I say value, I'm saying it's quite expensive for a surgery that is entirely cosmetic.  If you paid that amount and got a fully functioning reproductive system, it would be one thing.  But you are just paying someone to sculpt your flesh into another form.  I don't see how it's any different than breast augmentation for me personally.

I don't view either as a necessary risk because the final results seem too artificial to me.  My path right now is not towards SRS, so much as it is toward self-acceptance.  I know for some, SRS is part of that self-acceptance, but if I can get there without SRS, I can save myself a lot of pain and money.

[Darlene]

In Canada SRS is paid for by the citizens of that province.( tax payers )

[Shana A]

I haven't visited the forum much in the last week, so I have just found this thread.

For the time being, and it has been such for 15 years, I am non-op, non-hrt. I transitioned in 1993, and lived as a woman for over a year. While I was happier as a woman than as a man, it ultimately felt like I was exchanging one box for another. There were other circumstances as well, such as no health insurance and inability to find work. I re-transitioned, although I don't consider that I ever returned to being a man. I'm neither gender, or somewhere in between.

Like Interalia, I deal with being a male bodied person with GID the best I can. I also relate to what Sarah, Imaz and Mina have said, there are many risks involved in SRS, and I'm not ready to take those risks. I'm open about who I am to the important people in my life. I accept the possibility that I could wake up tomorrow and decide to do something different. The only thing constant is change.

Thanks Susan for creating this space for those of us who are non-op or exploring that as an option.

Zythyra

[Just Kate]

Interalia Doll, if I may ask...In your heart of hearts if your God
hadn't laid a guilt trip on you, requesting that you "detransition"
and you had the resources would you have the surgery to
"cure" your dysphoria?

Should a sweet inocent baby with a cleft lip be denighed the surgery
nessasary to give them a smile that God obviously
never intended for them to have?

I believe that if God intended for me to be anything, it was a male, but I haven't heard from Him yet so I cannot be totally sure, but reason would seem to dictate such.  However, we live in a world were defects do happen.  I developed a defect in my brain.

As to the "guilt trip" laid upon me, it was nothing of the sort.  Was Moses guilted into leaving his comfortable lifestyle to aid his brethren, the Hebrews?  Was Abraham guilted into sacrificing his son?  No, they did so because they believed that making those tough choices and decisions was ultimately what would be best for themselves and the world.  They acted on faith that God gave them a commandment and they followed it until told to do otherwise.  I am the same.  I believe I was given a commandment by God - a personal one - one that said to de-transition.  Once received, I had a choice, just as Moses and Abraham did, to obey or not.  If I did not, I'm sure I could have just gone on with my life, however if I obey, I open up an opportunity to receive additional blessings, and perhaps do something wonderful on behalf of my fellow brothers and sisters who share in this condition (GID) we have.  Guilt is not an issue - faith is.

Let me therefore, rephrase your question and then answer it:
"Interalia Doll, if I may ask...In your heart of hearts if your God hadn't asked you to exercise faith in him, and "detransition" and you had the resources would you have the surgery to "cure" your dysphoria?"

Yes.  If God had not asked me not to, I would have had the surgery and be living as a female.  But by doing so, I would have missed this opportunity to serve in a capacity I would not have thought possible - to bring hope to those who do not wish to transition - hope that both cognitive and behavioral techniques exist (but are yet undiscovered) that will help one to deal with the symptoms of GID without transition.  I intend to work with those who would pursue the same and find those techniques!

[Nero]

I believe that if God intended for me to be anything, it was a male, but I haven't heard from Him yet so I cannot be totally sure, but reason would seem to dictate such.  However, we live in a world were defects do happen.  I developed a defect in my brain.

Hi Interalia. This isn't my area, but may I ask why you believe the defect is in the brain rather than the body? Is not our body just a 'shell' according to religion? Why would the body take precedence over the brain? Isn't the brain the 'seat' of who we are?

[imaz]

I believe that if God intended for me to be anything, it was a male, but I haven't heard from Him yet so I cannot be totally sure, but reason would seem to dictate such.  However, we live in a world were defects do happen.  I developed a defect in my brain.

As to the "guilt trip" laid upon me, it was nothing of the sort.  Was Moses guilted into leaving his comfortable lifestyle to aid his brethren, the Hebrews?  Was Abraham guilted into sacrificing his son?  No, they did so because they believed that making those tough choices and decisions was ultimately what would be best for themselves and the world.  They acted on faith that God gave them a commandment and they followed it until told to do otherwise.  I am the same.  I believe I was given a commandment by God - a personal one - one that said to de-transition.  Once received, I had a choice, just as Moses and Abraham did, to obey or not.  If I did not, I'm sure I could have just gone on with my life, however if I obey, I open up an opportunity to receive additional blessings, and perhaps do something wonderful on behalf of my fellow brothers and sisters who share in this condition (GID) we have.  Guilt is not an issue - faith is.

Let me therefore, rephrase your question and then answer it:
"Interalia Doll, if I may ask...In your heart of hearts if your God hadn't asked you to exercise faith in him, and "detransition" and you had the resources would you have the surgery to "cure" your dysphoria?"

Yes.  If God had not asked me not to, I would have had the surgery and be living as a female.  But by doing so, I would have missed this opportunity to serve in a capacity I would not have thought possible - to bring hope to those who do not wish to transition - hope that both cognitive and behavioral techniques exist (but are yet undiscovered) that will help one to deal with the symptoms of GID without transition.  I intend to work with those who would pursue the same and find those techniques!

I still don't understand it interalia.

God asked you? May I ask how God did that, and how you know what God intends, or indeed wants?

Is it written somewhere, or did He communicate this to you in some way?

[heatherrose]

Do you cross live at all? Day to day how do you present yourself?
And if you had politely declined your God's request to detransition,
what do you think the outcome would have been for you?
Would you have been excommunicated from your church or
at worst reduced to a smoldering pile of goo? Are there any
fully transitioned, post operative individuals active in your church?
With the radical anti-gay stance that the Mormon church has taken in
the cases of the Boy Scouts and The Ca. Same Sex Marriage Amendment,
I would find it difficult to believe that there are. I also find it difficult to
understand how someone can support with their treasure and intellect, such an
organization, that up untill the late '60's did not even consider people of color to be
complete human beings. I can only imagine what persentage of none human,
I'm considered to be, considering it's still fair game to discriminate against me.
I have seen and experienced this religious rhetoric, throughout my entire life.
You have your own path to walk as do I, may you find your answers,
where ever you may.

Post Merge: April 05, 2009, 01:45:30 PM

Isn't the brain the 'seat' of who we are?

Well said, according to scripture we are supposed
to bring the flesh under subjection to the spirit.
The only thing that is supposed to survive beyond
this relm is the spirit. So which do I want to be
content in, my mind/spirit or the corruptable flesh?

[Just Kate]

Do you cross live at all? Day to day how do you present yourself?
And if you had politely declined your God's request to detransition,
what do you think the outcome would have been for you?
Would you have been excommunicated from your church or
at worst reduced to a smoldering pile of goo? Are there any
fully transitioned, post operative individuals active in your church?

I do not cross live now.  I present as a male physically, but stopped pretending to be something I'm not.  I act as myself.  Sometimes that confuses people or they ask questions related to if I'm gay.  I am open to almost everyone - I don't feel the need to hide it.

Had I declined to detransition, I would have been fine.  I don't think God has some awful hell waiting for me or anyone else with this condition.  I think I would have missed some blessings, but I would have gotten along okay perhaps.  I don't know what would have happened with the church.  It wouldn't have mattered much to me though at that point.

Yes, I know several fully transitioned and operative members in my church who are full and active members.  Excommunication is rare in the church and normally only occurs when you are perceived to be someone who is becoming (or is) an enemy to the church - generally not someone who just struggles with something and still has a testimony.  I say generally because our leaders are not perfect, but where mistakes might be made due to prejudice, etc., I believe a just God will do right by the people who are wrongfully removed - so no worries.
Post Merge: April 05, 2009, 02:17:34 PM

I still don't understand it interalia.

God asked you? May I ask how God did that, and how you know what God intends, or indeed wants?

Is it written somewhere, or did He communicate this to you in some way?

I received a powerful prompting from the Holy Ghost (the voice of God), like a piercing voice to my soul as I knelt in prayer on this subject.  The revelation was for none but me - I don't claim to know what God says for other people, but I do believe when He communicates with me it is meant for me to follow it.
Post Merge: April 05, 2009, 02:26:40 PM

Hi Interalia. This isn't my area, but may I ask why you believe the defect is in the brain rather than the body? Is not our body just a 'shell' according to religion? Why would the body take precedence over the brain? Isn't the brain the 'seat' of who we are?

Here are a few quote from various posts of mine recently that might better explain my thoughts on myself and my own situation.

As I mentioned before, my body is male, perfectly male in every way from my chromosomes to my physical characteristics.  I do not, however, feel like a male, or in other words, my gender identity is that of a female.  This condition, GID, causes me great stress - therefore it is a problem.  I want to fix the problem.  Most authorities on the subject tell me I must transition to fix the problem.  I feel if I transition that I will be deceiving myself and the world because I will be presenting as that which I am not.  I do not think that transition the only answer. I want to learn how to live with this condition.  As I learn, I want to help others learn to live with it as well - others being those who also do not wish to transition.

We may be our minds, but our minds deceive us - a lot even.  Our memories are reconstructive for instance, not photographic.  The mind of a schizophrenic who believes that the CIA is out to get him has a mind that lies to him.  Is his core identity "a person who believes that the CIA is out to get him", or is his core identity not related to his brain disorder.  I see my GID the same way.  I have a condition that makes my brain lie to me.  It tells me I am female when I am clearly not nor was supposed to be.  I do not identify with the lie my brain tells me, no more than I would expect the schizophrenic to either.  Fortunately, the schizophrenic has medication to control his brain, but I do not - so I have to learn other coping techniques.

Me, for those who read my posts should know this already.  But for the purpose of this topic I'll state it again.  I am a MTF TS.  I feel I was supposed to be a male.  I think all of the available evidence based on my chromosomes, physical attributes, etc all point to male.  I believe I was born with a brain defect that messed up my sense of gender identity.  If my brain were fixed, I'd be a whole male as I feel I should have been.

There are those with depressive symptoms that refuse to be treated for them.  That is their right to live how they want to live.  Is a person with a depressed condition due to a mental defect who gets medicated no longer themselves?  Is the real person the depressed one or the non-depressed one?  What is their core identity?  I think their true identity is that of a person without depression - thus the treated version because that is how they would have been without the defect.

In my opinion, GID is the same thing.  It is a mental condition that causes distress.  The real me is not the me with GID, the real me is the me without GID - the me I was supposed to be had I not been born with this condition.  Thus a treatment to fix my "inner self" is a treatment to restore me to what I would have been had I been normal.  My body is not dysfunctional - my brain is.

Hmm...

We know that there is most likely an area of the brain responsible for the sensation (perception) of gender identity.  However we haven't figured out yet where it is located or how it is encoded (or even more specifically, where we can poke at it in a monkey and generalize it to we humans).

But because I DO believe it is there, I think that our GID is much more likely the result of a malfunctioning "gender identity brain center" than a malformed body.  This would make it a mental birth defect - same as schizophrenia or countless others.  Of course, just because it exists biologically doesn't mean that is how it is triggered.  If it had a biological base and an environmental trigger (again like schizophrenia) that could explain the "late-comers" you might say.

Regardless if it is a problem in the mind or a problem in the body right now there isn't a whole heck of a lot you can do about it.  Learn to live with the discomfort or transition (or something in between).  If I am correct, perhaps once we have traumatized enough chimps and rhesus monkeys we will discover where we gain our concept of gender identity and will be able to have it modified.

The next question is though, who would want that modification?  I think for some being "transgendered" has become so central to their identity (what with all the time being so focused on it) that it might be hard to let go - like they had all that pain for nothing.  Bah, this is a discussion for another topic.

Let me know if you have any questions.

[cindybc]

The little voice within speaks strongly and is never wrong. In my day it was called knowings.

Cindy