So why not?

[Hillarync]

I understand you completely ladyrider, and I apologize for my initial arrogance which spurred the conflict.

[Izumi]

@ Zumi

If I had not began hormone treatment I would have killed myself. I do understand that I'm probably
somewhere in the gender spectrum that isn't the vanilla MtF hormones > GRS. I'm fine with that.

I would say there are different forms of dysphoria, but to assume another's is "easier to deal with"
is utterly ignorant.

edit: for crankiness

Didnt say anything about it being easier to deal with, i just said your tolerance for handling it is greater then mine.

[Alyssa M.]

alyssa,

LR has a history in coming in here and claiming Non-Op transpeople aren't trans.  Her intent was pretty obvious.  It's a ->-bleeped-<-ty thing to see in a support forum.

I will take your word for it, and in retrospect, I ought to have kept my thoughts to myself, as this isn't my place to speak. I hope I didn't offend anyone; I will take my leave now.

[Steph]

I understand you completely ladyrider, and I apologize for my initial arrogance which spurred the conflict.

And I certainly apologize as my reply was not meant to offend anyone, and to add... I don't believe you were being arrogant at all, just vigorously defending yourself.  I will admit that sometimes I come across as a self centred Bitch but if the truth be know I'm a real sweetie.  Having said that there are some arrogant buffoons here who do their best to demean others and seem to get away with it.

-={LR}=-

[Nicky]

Sorry LR, my bad, I misinterpreted things.

[Steph]

Sorry LR, my bad, I misinterpreted things.

Thanks Nicky.

-={LR}=-

[Cindy Stephens]

     I have never had a problem with having a penis, just being a "man".  I have always wanted to transition and intend to get FFS.  I have been on Hormones for maybe 6 years.  I will probably get an orchi, though I could afford the hole shebang, (pun intended). It just doesn't seem like a necessary step for me.  I could see how it might make it easier if I should have to go to a hospital or senior home at some future date.  I avoid being arrested.  But all the reasons that I can think of to get it done are for the comfort of others, not me.  I would keep my "M' status even if I had it because I want my wife to be able to collect social security based on my earnings and non-Federal recognition of gay marriages might leave that problematic.  She would back whatever I choose.  Our current sex life involves touching, kissing, oral.  I have had male lovers in the past (I am a serial monogomist) and seem to be able to satisfy all with what I have.  Certainly, if I could just swallow a pill and wake up tomorrow "changed" I would do so.  Sorry if this is a bit rambling.
     Now, how do I cope.  I have a wife who loves me totally.  We are BFF's, sisters, lovers.  We check out guys, sometimes, and compare notes.  If he is really hot, our special phrase is, "we share!" Of course we would never attempt it.  I switch to female mode around the house, and do as much in public as I can.  I manage to hang on to a well paying job that allows us to live, save, and still spend a significant amount on clothes to find my "style."  I would like to transition completely at some point, after FFS, and have the Orchi mostly so that I can decrease the hormone regimen.  Losing the extra baggage wouldn't hurt.  I firmly believe, as do my shrinks, that I am fully transsexual. 
     When I look at the stats on the financial outlook for Transsexuals it is frightening.   I saw a study in San Fran, on transsexual incomes in that bay area and it is far below averages for people with similar backgrounds. Sure, some do well, but not on average.  I have watched a number of people in my support group go full time, lose jobs that they were "sure" they would keep, and are now living full time in abject squalor.  They certainly cannot afford any of the extremely expensive operations, treatments, etc. that would allow them to fit in.
      I have lived financially secure, as well as poor.  While I don't need to be rich, I prefer being secure.  Far easier to maintain a long term relationship, health benes, and maybe even retire someday.  I can actually make a choice to transition or not, while having food on my table and maintaining my little family. 
     The reason that I have been prattling on is to flog the stodgy, slow path.  Get an education, get into a profession or trade, establish business networks, have friends and lovers that accept you for you.  You may find that success takes the "edge off".  Take hormones, be yourself on weekends, see if  the middle way works for you grasshopper.  Maybe it won't. Just listen to Your heart and not what someone who claims to be a "true" transexual says.  My way wouldn't work for others, don't claim that it will. But I do believe that a middle path is possible for many.  Sorry if this is preachy, I certainly believe that GRS is appropriate for some, but for many 90% of what they want will be enough, financially and socially, to get them through.

[gennee]

I am moving toward the transsexual conundrum but I'm not going to transition or take hormones (health reasons).  I believe that it isn't for me personally.

Gennee

[Izumi]

There at two parts of me that conflict.

My emotions tell me why the hell would any of you want to keep the damn thing? or not take hormones?  When i see a woman's body and my body with all its imperfections i want to cry the biggest imperfection being whats in between my legs.  I know there are ugly women, but they are still women, and its a feeling of difference that supersedes physical beauty or ugly for that matter to the point where in my mind i am screaming to get the damn thing fixed, and frustrated that i have to wait to do it, i cant even imagine my life with it... i wouldnt be complete.

However,
My Mind tells me, people arent like me, there are many different people, all born differently, raised differently, have different characteristics, and my life experiences do not trump theirs.  So while a part of me thinks your crazy to keep it, the rational part understands that you are you, and i am not you, you of all people, know what is best for your body and i would get just as pissed if other people told me there opinions on MY life.

Its important to balance and see both sides, and know we are all biased in our opinions, but if we just step back, maybe some understanding could be reached about each other. 

good luck to everyone in whatever path they choose.

[lilacwoman]

the trouble with allowing non-ops under the TS label is that it gives ammunition to the bigots and fools who say sexchange is a waste of money as if some so-called TS likes dressing up as a woman and keeps and uses his penis then in effect he and all other TS are nothing but crossdressers and autogynes and there is no need for any sexchange surgery industry - just ship em all off to CAMH and let Blanchard and Zucker shape em up and happy to be men. 
Is there an equivalent to CAMH for so-called FtMs where they can be sent to be told to enjoy being lesbians in denial and stop having silly notions of getting top and bottom surgery?
It is curious that CAMH or anyone else doesn't seem to have any interest in the FtM.  Are there any reparative therapy boosters who claim that no girl needs to be FtM?   

[Papillon]

lilacwoman, I have seen this argument presented before, but I struggle to understand it.  I responded to a smiliar concern on another thread, so I will paraphrase myself here.

The concern appears to be that, if some transsexuals can live relatively successfully without undergoing medical transition, this would undermine the need to provide any sort of medical treatment for transsexuals.  How does that work?  Different things work for different people and each choice should be respected.  Just because a few people can keep going without medical treatment in no way implies that all can.

And I am not sure I like this implication that those who opt out of medical treatment are not "true" transsexuals.  We are just transsexuals who have made a different choice to yours.  It is not a matter of "allowing" us under the TS label.  We fall under it, like it or not.

[Fencesitter]

the trouble with allowing non-ops under the TS label is that it gives ammunition to the bigots and fools who say sexchange is a waste of money as if some so-called TS likes dressing up as a woman and keeps and uses his penis then in effect he and all other TS are nothing but crossdressers and autogynes and there is no need for any sexchange surgery industry.

The bigots and the people who are uncomfortable with TS in general will always find silly reasons for not liking us and thinking we're sick or inferior, no matter if there are non-op TS people out there or not. Empowerment is more important and useful than adjusting to the bigots more than is okay for us just to try to please them. Hey, they don't like me, I don't like them, I don't even really tolerate them so it goes both ways and so I'm not any better than they are. But as long as we just avoid each other and don't try to make other people's lives miserable, what the heck? I would never expect bigots to adjust to my wishes more than they are ready to do without feeling uncomfortable.

And given that the operation is risky and in some cases contra-indicated for health reasons (diabetes etc.), it would be very unfair to refuse the TS label to non-op transsexuals. Comparing the pros and cons leads to different results and decisions depending on the individual. Being TS does not mean this forces you to do the whole transition, in fact each step is a choice you make yourself. We are the actors of our lives, not the objects. There is really nothing which anyone REALLY MUST do with their lives but go to the bathroom, breathe and finally die. Even eating and drinking is a choice.

[pheonix]

lilacwoman, I have seen this argument presented before, but I struggle to understand it.  I responded to a smiliar concern on another thread, so I will paraphrase myself here.

The concern appears to be that, if some transsexuals can live relatively successfully without undergoing medical transition, this would undermine the need to provide any sort of medical treatment for transsexuals.  How does that work?  Different things work for different people and each choice should be respected.  Just because a few people can keep going without medical treatment in no way implies that all can.

And I am not sure I like this implication that those who opt out of medical treatment are not "true" transsexuals.  We are just transsexuals who have made a different choice to yours.  It is not a matter of "allowing" us under the TS label.  We fall under it, like it or not.

Papillon - take the word "relatively" out (my life is damned good tyvm :p) and Amen brother .

When they treat cancer, doctors start with the least invasive procedure before they work their way to some of the more life altering treatments.  Just because they can stop the cancer without chemotherapy, doesn't make it not cancer.  IMO, it's similar with GID and the medical designation as transsexual.

To be fair, my own circumstances are rare.  I was born physically between genders, so I have years of dealing with a not-ideal body.   The changes of HRT: the further breast development; the softening of my facial features; the changes in skin texture, significantly reduced my physical dysphoria.   I'm also lucky because I am highly passable  - I've integrated very easily into society.  That all but eliminated the  social dysphoria I felt.  I recognize that without my perfect storm of circumstances, the idea of grs would be far more necessary.  From what I've learned talking with other non-op TS folks, others have similar mitigating factors which lessened their drive.

One of the problems with eliminating non-ops from the TS definition is the underlying motivations are the same... there's no autogynephelia - my motivations aren't sexual; there's no gay male in denial; I'm certainly not a crossdresser - i have no concept of a personal male identity; I'm not gender queer trying to break established social norms.  The root causes of my transition are the same as every other transsexual man or woman, I was not comfortable living my life in the physical and social conditions of my assigned gender.  From a dataset standpoint, transsexual is my grouping... I'm an outlier, no doubt, but it doesn't prevent my assignment to the transsexual data set.  Nor should my status as an outlier affect the validity of GRS or treatments for other transsexuals.

[pheonix]

And given that the operation is risky and in some cases contra-indicated for health reasons (diabetes etc.),

If I were handling the definitions, an inability to have surgeries due to medical or financial reasons doesn't exclude a transperson from inclusion in the "op" flavor of things.   One's inability to undergo procedures doesn't mean that person does not want them.  But that's just my personal take.

[Aegir]

I'm not transitioning mostly out of self-hate and fear right now, I think. I am short (only 5'2") with a giant head, and as it stands right now I CAN NOT PASS so I have no idea whether starting T would make me look even freakier. I've recently realized that over the years I've developed a lot of mannerisms that people accept in a female because they think of women as innately nonthreatening, but these same traits in a male mark him as a predatory individual, and I'm aware of how much work I have to put in to changing my behavior so that if I ever feel ready or willing to transition I'll be someone that people will at least want to befriend. General opinion with the <10 people I'm out to is that I would look really bizarre if I got top surgery, but I'm not sure since I haven't started T, and I'm scared to start T because I'm afraid I'll look very strange if I do. To compound this all I like men, but I can't stand the idea of anal penetration, and I'm also scared about losing my ability to have orgasms and what sex would be like in general. I don't like the physical reality of things much now; I like the emotional closeness, but I'm scared things will get worse if I start transitioning. I feel like it would be a bad decision for me to transition and lose my husband (who I really, really love- I wish I could keep pretending to be a woman for him) over it and then face not only the stigma of being transgender, but also of being a gay man.

A friend of mine told me today that she's starting her transition into a female body, and I'm happy for her, but she's younger than me and so much braver and it makes me hate myself that she's brave enough to go through with it, being a Latin-American and having all that extra baggage to get through, and In all my privilege I'm still too much of a coward to stop ->-bleeped-<-ing around with this masquerade.

It could be too early to tell whether SRS could possibly be right for me, or even if T is right for me. I'm only 21, and I've been struggling with my gender/sex incongruity for as long as I can remember. I really don't know what to do, I am very afraid to transition but living as a woman when I know damn well I'm not is getting me down. I try to tell myself it doesn't matter, but it does; I know I'm lying to myself. My body is very, very feminine, I genuinely feel like I'm wearing a bra full of water balloons and I wish it were as simple as taking it off.

[shoegazer]

It could be too early to tell whether SRS could possibly be right for me, or even if T is right for me. I'm only 21, and I've been struggling with my gender/sex incongruity for as long as I can remember. I really don't know what to do, I am very afraid to transition but living as a woman when I know damn well I'm not is getting me down.

It takes a long time to work through these kind of questions and find the answers or the path that's right for you. It's worth considering that you may underestimate the kinds of physical transformation that are possible - I know that I did. Have you seen before and after pictures of people who started with a similar body to you?

Many people also find therapy extremely useful as part of the process of figuring things out - have you thought about it?

[Aegir]

It takes a long time to work through these kind of questions and find the answers or the path that's right for you. It's worth considering that you may underestimate the kinds of physical transformation that are possible - I know that I did. Have you seen before and after pictures of people who started with a similar body to you?

Many people also find therapy extremely useful as part of the process of figuring things out - have you thought about it?

I haven't seen many before/after pictures in general, but the ones I've seen I've been lukewarm about. I'm debating starting therapy, I'm not sure I can afford it because I think the army will drop the insurance I have through my husband (and kick him out!) and I can't afford it without the insurance. I'm not sure what the army is on transgendered individuals, but I've seen how they feel about homosexuals so I really don't want to take chances. He'll be out in like two years if everything goes according to plan, so I'll probably be sticking it out for another two years unless I stumble into a fantastic job before then. He knows how I feel, but he's stated that he's not sexually attracted to men, so that's another complication. I hope we would still be friends but I'm afraid he wouldn't want to talk to me anymore because of the memories making things too awkward.

[Agent_J]

If I were handling the definitions, an inability to have surgeries due to medical or financial reasons doesn't exclude a transperson from inclusion in the "op" flavor of things.   One's inability to undergo procedures doesn't mean that person does not want them.  But that's just my personal take.

At the same time, it doesn't really exclude them from non-op.  I feel out of place in the op group even though I want it because I know I won't have it*.  While I'm happy for those who are able to realize that particular goal they have, I find myself avoiding such discussions because it is painful.  I'm making my peace with the fact and going to places more allied with how my life will go.

I actually came to this approach thanks to knowing people dealing with infertility and the pain they suffered for a long time due to dealing with so many others, e.g. one thought "I'd trade you a cellar of the finest wines to be in your position" when a pregnant acquaintance complained to her about being unable to drink.  After trying what they were comfortable with they decided to accept being childfree.  It didn't mean they were no longer open to the idea of having children, much less that they would be unhappy to have that happen should it, but that they weren't going to continue to invest time and energy (including emotional energy) into it - they accepted it and made their peace with that fact, left parenting communities, and got on with their lives.

* Yes, I realize there's a potential for that to change, but I know it sufficiently unlikely as to be statistically insignificant; as much as it is humanly possible to be sure. I can't see any definition going beyond this reasonable level since nobody would be able to meet the standard it would require.

[Fencesitter]

Plus if someone says that people who opt against bottom surgery are not transsexual, then what would that mean for the FTM transsexuals?

[lilacwoman]

Plus if someone says that people who opt against bottom surgery are not transsexual, then what would that mean for the FTM transsexuals?

bottom surgery for FtMs is such a major crapshoot that it is understandable that not many choose to go for it...and as that means most FtMs will never get a functioning penis then it is perfectly acceptable to retain and use the vagina.
However I just can't accept the idea of non-op MtFs as keeping a penis let alone using it is so male and the surgery to replace it is affordable and quite successful so there really isn't much reason to choose to be non-op...except that the person isn't really TS.
The other side of my coin is that thanks to inexpensive surgery and p.c medics there are a lot of people losing penisses and getting vaginas who are definitely not TS.