Anyone else think we were supposed to be our bio sex?

[placeholdername]

The fact that I am Mormon has a tremendous bearing on my decision as well as my logic and reason, but that doesn't make it any more right or wrong honestly.  As I mentioned before, my body is male, perfectly male in every way from my chromosomes to my physical characteristics.  I do not, however, feel like a male, or in other words, my gender identity is that of a female.  This condition, GID, causes me great stress - therefore it is a problem.  I want to fix the problem.  Most authorities on the subject tell me I must transition to fix the problem.  I feel if I transition that I will be deceiving myself and the world because I will be presenting as that which I am not.

I guess a lot of this has to do with how you view the mind/body -- if you were perfectly male in every way, what would cause your brain/mind to tell you that you are female?  In order for your body to be perfectly male, this would mean the female-identity impulse would be coming from some part of your mind that has nothing to do with your body.  Or perhaps it is in fact coming from your brain, which is not as perfectly male as you think it is.  Or perhaps the dilemma here is the concept of 'perfectly male'.

The other thing that concerns me is the idea that because GID causes stress, that it is a problem.  A women carrying a baby and giving birth causes profound stress, but the complete act of reproduction is not a 'problem'.  From my perspective, the idea that you have a problem is not coming from you, but from an external influence.

I think the idea of learning how to live in your situation without transitioning so that it will be possible to provide a healthy alternative to people who don't want to fully transition is brave and commendable.  I just worry about making sure that the accompanying messages are also healthy and not detrimental.

[taru]

Do you feel you were supposed to be your birth sex?

Or do you feel you were supposed to be your perceived brain sex?

Oh, and why?

And uh... how does that affect you need/desire to transition?

I don't think there is any supposed -thing involved in either direction. Just random misfortune of getting mismatched parts.

[Just Kate]

Forgive me, I see I need to be exact here, just in case people have not read all of my posts.

I am a male.  I have XY chromosomes.  Everything about my body tells me that I am male.  I'm sure that if I got a brain imaging scan done, we would find that the majority of the sexual dimorphic brain areas would more closely resemble that of a male.  The idea of spirit and soul aside, I believe our brains are our central processing unit.  Despite my male body, somewhere in my CPU, in an area defined to express gender identity, it is out of whack.  We don't know where this area is yet, but if our brain controls all of our perceptions and sensation, then necessarily it is my brain causing me to think this.

It is far more reasonable for me to believe that my XY chromosomes, while in my zygotal state, set off a chain reaction to form me into a male.  A wash of hormones didn't change me to XY (as some have claimed), XY is established before I ever developed two cells meaning the inherent code in those chromosomes would determine how I developed.  That doesn't mean there cannot be errors, but I believe those errors occur during development of my XY (male) body, not BEFORE the egg and the sperm met and determined XY.  If I somehow developed as an imperfect female as an XY zygote, it means I have some seriously messed up DNA, that my Y chromosome more resembled and X chromosome in structure - but this is so far out there, I feel it impossible for that to occur.  I do however feel that minor variations can occur - minor errors, that can mess one up later on.  Heavens knows that once the gonads form and start pumping sex-typed hormones, all sorts of errors can happen to the developing genitalia resulting in intersexed conditions.  Therefore it is not unreasonable, or I should say it is VERY reasonable to believe, that when the gonads form and start pumping those hormones, if physical abnormalities can occur in the genitalia, then physical abnormalities can occur in the brain.  Does this mean my brain is suddenly "changed" into a female brain?  No!  It means I still have a male brain with abnormalities - some of which might make me feel I am female.  So when my developing fetus is born and gains awareness of itself, it feels something is not right, something it cannot explain, something others cannot easily see, and something for which there is no medical test yet created that can determine.

As for GID not being a problem, one doesn't need to look far on this board or one of the others like it to see IT IS A PROBLEM.  It causes undo amount of distress during childhood and beyond.  It has negative social and psychological implications regardless if one chooses to treat it or not.  Feelings of body/mind incongruence, depression, low self esteem, negative self image, destructive tendencies, and possible suicide are all tenants of this condition.  If someone were to give me a pill that caused all of those side effects permanently, I'd decline it.  Why?  Cause they would be a problem!  Having a baby, a temporary situation, has rewards that outweigh the risks for most women, so they accept it.  It is not a problem.  Do the rewards of having GID outweight the negative aspects?  And if you are fortunate enough not to have negative consequences of your GID so much so that it isn't a problem, please teach the rest of us.

[imaz]

Come on interalia. It's not all negative, it takes us to to places others can only dream of, and lets us see the world in a special way.

I enjoy being TS/TG or whatever you want to call it. God has everything, including of course a sense of humour, and we should learn to laugh with him. What's not to like?

It's a blessing, have the respect to take it as such.

[Just Kate]

Come on interalia. It's not all negative, it takes us to to places others can only dream of, and lets us see the world in a special way.

I enjoy being TS/TG or whatever you want to call it. God has everything, including of course a sense of humour, and we should learn to laugh with him. What's not to like?

It's a blessing, have the respect to take it as such.

Sure there is good with the bad, as with all things.  However the bad is certainly destructive to the individual.  Perhaps because my GID goes untreated with transition it poses a greater problem for me, but I still see the fruits of this condition and they are not desirable.

[Joseph]

Sure there is good with the bad, as with all things.  However the bad is certainly destructive to the individual.  Perhaps because my GID goes untreated with transition it poses a greater problem for me, but I still see the fruits of this condition and they are not desirable.

Have to say I totally agree.  There is some good that comes out of having GID.  For example, I find I can certainly empathize with many people's emotional pain, even if the cause of their pain is different.  I am also quite sympathetic and probably would have a hard time labeling anyone a "freak".  Many people have felt safe and understood when they have shared their problems with me, even if they didn't know why.  HOWEVER....it comes at an exorbitant cost.  I hate having GID, and I agree it is a HUGE problem that affects how I function from day to day.  As a Christian, on a daily basis I have to remember that God has not forgotten me and that He has a plan for my life; it's not like my GID took him by surprise.  Knowing this gives me comfort, as does anticipation of an eternal heaven with no pain.  Still, this is a daily struggle I would rather not have.

As an aside, Interalia thank you for all your posts.  Even though we live thousands of miles apart and have never met, I have had more hope in the last few weeks, just knowing you are out there, thinking and struggling and coping with these same things (i.e. having GID but being non-op).

Joseph

[Shana A]

Come on interalia. It's not all negative, it takes us to to places others can only dream of, and lets us see the world in a special way.

I enjoy being TS/TG or whatever you want to call it. God has everything, including of course a sense of humour, and we should learn to laugh with him. What's not to like?

It's a blessing, have the respect to take it as such.

This is a strange and unique gift/blessing, that's for sure. I remember once reading that G-d only gives us gifts that we can use. I'm still figuring out how to use it.

Z

[findingreason]

Hmm, I wonder if it is possible I fall in the same boat as interalia. I think I got nailed with aspects of both genders in terms of my brain. I feel cheated in that I never will find a common ground, regardless of if I transition or not. That I will always have these issues, whether I live male, or female. I'm beginning to think that HRT may be necessary though, because I tend to be a lot more destructive to my mind and sometimes physical existence with T being dominant. As where I acquire a more calm sense when on E, and I would rather transition then accidentally do permanent damage or suicide later on cause I didn't do it. Goodness knows I've already come deadly close to killing myself enough times. But I do not know if I can be comfortable physically as a female, even though I do get dysphoria living as a male too. Could my perception change after being on HRT for long enough, and I will enjoy being a girl completely? I don't know, but I'll end up finding out, it could just be fear, as I am loaded with enough fear to last 10 lifetimes.

[imaz]

This is a strange and unique gift/blessing, that's for sure. I remember once reading that G-d only gives us gifts that we can use. I'm still figuring out how to use it.

Z

We say something very similar : that God/Allah only gives us burdens that we can deal with, and that everything happens for a reason whether we realise/comprehend it or not.

Personally after all these years I think it's an amazing gift, took me years to come to that conclusion but I'm sure it's the correct one. As soon as I accepted this within myself my world changed and great people came into my life. I've never been happier and while I regret the years of suffering, they were worth it for the life I have now. Alhamdulillah indeed.

Take care my friend.

[placeholdername]

However the bad is certainly destructive to the individual.

I think this is a matter of perspective, i.e. from your perspective it seems to be certainly destructive.

I'm pretty sure I have GID but I don't find it destructive to me in any way.  Sure I feel pain when I think about how much I would like to express and interact publicly as female, but it is my choice not to do so -- nothing is stopping me.  Sure I feel pain in that I look more masculine than I would prefer to, but at the same time there are plenty of genetic women (non-intersexed) who look more masculine/less attractive than I do.  And luckily there are steps I can take to change these masculine physical features.

So I don't feel it is destructive, and I don't see it as a problem.  I envision that when I 'finish' transition I will have a better understanding of myself than many genetic women ever will, and that I see as a blessing.

But I don't see transition as the only option -- to return to your perspective and your statements: you want to find an alternative to transition, and hopefully pass that on to others in similar situations.  So in that case I would see it as a blessing that you have GID, because otherwise you would never have the opportunity to do what you say you want to do.

Maybe part of my viewpoint is that I've already dealt with personal issues that are far more severe than GID in the amount of pain and distress caused to both myself and others.  Working through those, I believe now that all (or almost all) of our 'problems' are self-created.  Look at something in a different light and the problem vanishes -- a matter of perspective.

[cindybc]

Interalia
Me, for those who read my posts should know this already.  But for the purpose of this topic I'll state it again.  I am a MTF TS.  I feel I was supposed to be a male.  I think all of the available evidence based on my chromosomes, physical attributes, etc all point to male.  I believe I was born with a brain defect that messed up my sense of gender identity.  If my brain were fixed, I'd be a whole male as I feel I should have been.

As for how it affects my transition.  While I know (from personal experience) that transitioning to a female would be a blessing and I feel I'd be happy as one, however, knowing that I wasn't supposed to be a female, I feel I'd be lying to myself and everyone else.  This disinclines me to transition.  Of course, now I just have to learn how to deal with the GID without transitioning

Hi Interalia.
For many years I never told anyone about my disorder that I came to learn in later years to be labeled as GID. I only just knew that I had this burning desire to be a girl and dressed up the part every chance I got. I was fortunate I only got caught a couple of time and both those times I was made to believe I had committed a mortal sin and was going to go to hell for it.

Now I had this guilt trip and paranoia I had to live with for many years, and I trusted no one to talk to about it. Not even my mom and I trusted her more then anyone else in the entire world.

I once went to see a priest to talk to about this problem, I was 15 years old and to keep the story short this was to a greater degree when I left the church, never to return. I ran away form home that year, hitchhiked from central Ontario Canada to New York city. The big city in the middle of the Hippie movement.

I was lucky that I had some folks from a commune take me in. I lived (as a girl) with those folks for nearly two years. Oh yes, flower power, the flower children they called themselves, pretty colorful folks they were.

Well at fifteen and the long hair and the unisex clothes I passed quite well without even trying to. They had no reason to think I was anything else but a girl and I integrated well with the girls. You could call this my first experience of living in the preferred gender.   

Unfortunately it would take many more years of doing the wrong things and making the wrong choices and all the wrong things which eventually lead me to loose my three children my home and everything else that was worth anything to me.

Ihad nothing and I spent five years living on the street before I took in my first sober breath in many years. I had been a total failure for 30 years before I knew within, when the little voice spoke to me that there was something I needed to do in this life and it was time to start.

I got on social assistance, upgraded my living arrangement from a room to a one bedroom apartment, went back to school to get the necessary papers I needed to work as a social worker. I worked twenty years as a social worker, working mostly with the very folks I once was a member of, street people. After a time I knew that this was where I needed to be. this was my mission. Ten years later I discovered the meaning of transsexuality and GID. Even though I had the GID, all that time I was in the dark as to it's true nature and then discovered there was something I could do about it.

This never deterred me from my mission to work with those in need. I transitioned on the job and I never lost a client over it. If anything I gained clients. My life is good today and I still continue working with those in need at a street women's shelter and at the down town trans support group.

If you have already read my story then I apologise for taking up space on this thread. I beleive we are both on the same journey hun, just occupying different genders.

Cindy

[mina.magpie]

God has everything, including of course a sense of humour, and we should learn to laugh with him.

That is quite possibly one of the most awesome things I've read in a while. 

Mina.

[Just Kate]

Cindy,

I'm glad you shared your story with me, and I'm so happy that you were willing to listen to that voice, and make a decision that would ultimately improve your life.  Seems you were in a real rut before then!  I'm fortunate to be growing up in the time period I live in, I do not know how I would have made it had I been born earlier.

Again, thank you for your story.

[cindybc]

You are quite welcome Interalia. I would like to hear yours sometime if you don't mind.  I believe we have more incoming then meets the eye to most. Some might se us as the most unlikely pair to be conversing on this board. Well, que sera, sera, like two ships passing in the night. "Hee, hee," a Mormon and a Wiccan witch, hee, hee! what da ya think? Don't worry most folks probably already think we are both one french fry short of a happy meal.

Cindy

[Just Kate]

You are quite welcome Interalia. I would like to hear yours sometime if you don't mind.  I believe we have more incoming then meets the eye to most. Some might se us as the most unlikely pair to be conversing on this board. Well, que sera, sera, like two ships passing in the night. "Hee, hee," a Mormon and a Wiccan witch, hee, hee! what da ya think? Don't worry most folks probably already think we are both one french fry short of a happy meal.

Cindy

It might interest you to know that the majority of my friends in real life that are religious are Pagan.  In fact, back when I was learning about the Mormon church (I am a convert) it was only my Pagan friends who offered support in my search for truth as most of my Christian friends became estranged from me because of my interest in the Mormons.

My story is quite long, but very detailed.  Check it out:
http://gidinteralia.blogspot.com/2009/03/who-am-i.html

[cindybc]

Hi Interalia, ya don't scare me hun. I have met many different variety of people, from town mayors to movie actors, to Billy the bum sittin out there on the park bench, buy him a hot dog and he is the happiest gent in town, big grin contrasting sharply with the unshaven face. Or how about the guy at the intersection of Esquire and Mandrake, gotta be quick at dropping your coins in his hat as you drive by.

You would be surprised by these folks whom by outside appearance appear to be uneducated, unkempt, torpid minded peasants who have probably gone without a bath as since the great flood.

You will find Philosophers, preachers, scholars, anybody anywhere from Doctors, lawyers to engineers, every walk of life. But for reasons I can only guess, they have lost the way and hiding from the world. Using white mans fire water, cheep rot gut wine, or anything else they can get in trade from damned, damned the pusher man, the most popular being crystal meth.

And oh yes mustn't forget, "God bless them," our own kind, they have a name for them, ->-bleeped-<- whores they call them. Maybe it is because they began selling themselves by trying to earn extra money for transitioning but later it became a necessity to make ends meet as they are unable to get gainful full time employment. Then they end up without work, and unable to obtain another job even after frantically trying to find work.

The despair and hopelessness becomes overwhelming as they are resigned to living on the street, selling themselves for a favor from damned damned the pusher man. Having failed in making it in society, they create their own little reality on the street.

Taking away someone rights of choice through drugs and alcohol to the point where the lives of these retched beings on the street is only worth $ in their pockets of the greedy pusherman. This scourge is probably the biggest pestilence that has ever taken over the land, like a cancer, just in the past few decades.

"Ah!" but now I preach, well enough of that. As I say, I do not scare easily anymore about much of anything, having left all that I have left behind me and getting up in years, I have only one life to live and I have chosen to be there and to do as best I can for those folks I have just mentioned.

I can only just pray to be guided and shown the way. Good things are coming my friend, good things are coming, "believe!" Fore once I have a comrade who knows and understands and who hears the tiny voice of the house mouse.

Thank you for posting the link to your story.

Cindy

         

[Jesslee]

It is far more reasonable for me to believe that my XY chromosomes, while in my zygotal state, set off a chain reaction to form me into a male.  A wash of hormones didn't change me to XY (as some have claimed), XY is established before I ever developed two cells meaning the inherent code in those chromosomes would determine how I developed.  That doesn't mean there cannot be errors, but I believe those errors occur during development of my XY (male) body, not BEFORE the egg and the sperm met and determined XY.  If I somehow developed as an imperfect female as an XY zygote, it means I have some seriously messed up DNA, that my Y chromosome more resembled and X chromosome in structure - but this is so far out there, I feel it impossible for that to occur.  I do however feel that minor variations can occur - minor errors, that can mess one up later on.  Heavens knows that once the gonads form and start pumping sex-typed hormones, all sorts of errors can happen to the developing genitalia resulting in intersexed conditions.  Therefore it is not unreasonable, or I should say it is VERY reasonable to believe, that when the gonads form and start pumping those hormones, if physical abnormalities can occur in the genitalia, then physical abnormalities can occur in the brain.  Does this mean my brain is suddenly "changed" into a female brain?  No!  It means I still have a male brain with abnormalities - some of which might make me feel I am female.  So when my developing fetus is born and gains awareness of itself, it feels something is not right, something it cannot explain, something others cannot easily see, and something for which there is no medical test yet created that can determine.

Actually GID may very well be chromosomal based, Im sure most on this board have already read this article, but I will post a link below. If this can be reproduced and proven true it would seem to indicate that GID was something carried on the chromosomes and this condition would exist before development or  conception and  very similar to or possibly a type of AIS (which is carried on the mothers X chromosome and can cause many of the abnormalities you speak of). If this is the cause then what is the person suffering from GID meant to be.

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/2275/gene-linked-transsexuality?page=0%2C0

[Genevieve Swann]

It doesn't matter what I "think" it's how I feel that's important. The only person one has to live with for rest of one's life is yourself. It's best to make it as easy as possible. I don't get too concerned about the wrong body issue. Doing what feels right, feels right.

[Just Kate]

Actually GID may very well be chromosomal based, Im sure most on this board have already read this article, but I will post a link below. If this can be reproduced and proven true it would seem to indicate that GID was something carried on the chromosomes and this condition would exist before development or  conception and  very similar to or possibly a type of AIS (which is carried on the mothers X chromosome and can cause many of the abnormalities you speak of). If this is the cause then what is the person suffering from GID meant to be.

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/2275/gene-linked-transsexuality?page=0%2C0

This is very interesting and thank you for sharing it.    However, it doesn't change my premise that even if there exists this additional androgen receptor (AR as the article calls it) that the MTF person was MEANT to be female biologically, their genes were building a male (XY) and something got messed up in the process.

[Ceri]

There are lots of questions we can ask that turn out not to be very productive. "Can God make a rock so heavy He can lift it?" "Will Goddess inflict three-fold revenge if I beat a masochist in ways that gratify her, if I don't know she's a masochist?" "What is grandmotherly kindness?" and on and on through lots of traditions. There's a pair of problems with all of these: first, how on earth are we ever to have reliable knowledge about the answer, and second, if we do have it, so what? For me, "supposed to" questions almost always end up like that.

Rather than "Am I supposed to be my bio sex?", I suggest a different question:

"What actions that I might take about my sex and gender best help me in living a life that lets me fulfill my other desires and obligations?" What leads to me, or you, or anyone else, feeling happy, capable of loving and being loved most deeply, most free of the sin of self-condemnation (and remember that it is a sin according to Jesus, who said "neither do I condemn three, go and sin no more", just as much as it's a soul-weakening choice in paganism and other creeds), most prepared to discharge our duties to the world when it comes to charity and justice?

For me, that's trusting the sense of self that's in my mind rather than the one expressed in my genes. Trying to be male took a constant toll on me, shrinking my spirit and resolve, and impairing my ability to tend properly to myself or to have the energy I should have had to help the world around me. Accepting myself as female led very directly to the receding of life-long self-loathing and a willingness to get to work on things that'll improve my chronically weak health, and to better support some political efforts that I've been wanting to help.

I am a better person, for myself and for the world, as a woman.

What choice makes you a better person? That's the only way to judge "supposed to be" I can think of that deals in observable reality.