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Gender Neutral Pronouns etc... Waste of time or not?

Started by imaz, April 23, 2009, 05:10:49 AM

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Susan

You should think about doing a article on our wiki about gender neutral pronouns...
Susan Larson
Founder
Susan's Place Transgender Resources

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imaz

Who? Me?

Personally I don't believe in them as I stated up thread for the simple reason I speak a language that has gender neutral pronouns and which also has some of the worst gender stereotyping I've ever come across.

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Seshatneferw

Quote from: Susan on April 27, 2009, 04:06:24 AM
You should think about doing a article on our wiki about gender neutral pronouns...

Or, to be precise, expand the much too short one that is there already. :)

  Nfr
Whoopee! Man, that may have been a small one for Neil, but it's a long one for me.
-- Pete Conrad, Apollo XII
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Caroline

Quote from: imaz on April 23, 2009, 05:10:49 AM
My point is that in all three cultures gender roles are very set irrespective of language so what is the point of trying to change the language? Surely it's the culture that we need to change to a more accepting one, not the language itself.

I'd love it if gender roles were less rigid, or indeed dispensed with altogether.  However my pronoun choice has nothing to do with gender roles, its to do with what gender I AM.  Whatever society I lived in in I still wouldn't be a 'he', nor would I be a 'she'.  I see the two as largely separate issues.

Gender neutral pronouns are not a 'waste of time' when the binary pronouns are wrong and cause dysphoria when someone refers to you with them.  I'm quite uncomfortable with the implication that that doesn't matter tbh...
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imaz

Quote from: A~ on April 27, 2009, 08:47:09 AM
I'd love it if gender roles were less rigid, or indeed dispensed with altogether.  However my pronoun choice has nothing to do with gender roles, its to do with what gender I AM.  Whatever society I lived in in I still wouldn't be a 'he', nor would I be a 'she'.  I see the two as largely separate issues.

Gender neutral pronouns are not a 'waste of time' when the binary pronouns are wrong and cause dysphoria when someone refers to you with them.  I'm quite uncomfortable with the implication that that doesn't matter tbh...

Move to Indonesia and then you will be "Dia" whether you are male, female, androgynous!
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Caroline

Quote from: imaz on April 27, 2009, 08:50:59 AM
Move to Indonesia and then you will be "Dia" whether you are male, female, androgynous!

How about no.
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tekla

English has a gender neutral pronoun, and it's "It" - but no one seems to like that
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Mr. Fox

Quote from: Jaimey on April 26, 2009, 04:19:07 PM
Actually, "they" isn't incorrect.  It only became standard to use "he" when only boys were educated.  Then they added "she" to make it more inclusive.  I've always used "they" in speech, which tells me on my own that it's acceptable.  It was in writing that I learned to use "he or she".  In this case, I think the verbal tradition tells us more than academic tradition.

As far as trying to use words like 'zie' or 'sie', 'e' or 'em'...on a forum like this, sure.  I can manage.  But in the real world and in speech, it's too awkward.  Not only do they not sound right because we aren't used to them (they also don't sound natural because we trip on them), but you'd have to explain it every time. 

I'm sticking with "they/them" in times of uncertainty or gender neutrality.  Otherwise, I'm going to use the standard "he/she".

On a side note, how often am I going to hear someone refer to me with a third person pronoun?  Not often enough to get riled up about it.  It's one thing if you are TS and you are transitioning/getting ready to transition and another thing entirely if you don't identify with the binary.  I don't think it's reasonable to get upset if someone refers to you with the pronoun of the sex you are presenting as (unless it's someone you're out to and have discussed pronouns with...then just correct them).

Using they is technically incorrect, but only on the same level of, say, ending a sentence with a preposition.  Okay for most people, but English teachers freak out about it.
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FairyGirl

Quote from: Mr. Fox on April 27, 2009, 09:43:26 AM
Okay for most people, but English teachers freak out about it.

lol don't I know it. "they", "them" are technically plural pronouns and why it is considered incorrect English to refer to a singular person with a plural pronoun. Two or more people are "them". One person is "he" or "she". "anyone" and "anybody" and even "everyone" are considered singular. Language is weird.  ???
Girls rule, boys drool.
If I keep a green bough in my heart, then the singing bird will come.
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Seshatneferw

Quote from: tekla on April 27, 2009, 08:56:31 AM
English has a gender neutral pronoun, and it's "It" - but no one seems to like that

Perhaps that might have something to do with it not being neutral with regard to personhood -- if something is it it isn't a person, and if someone is a person they should be either he or she.

Silly Indo-Europeans. ;)

  Nfr
Whoopee! Man, that may have been a small one for Neil, but it's a long one for me.
-- Pete Conrad, Apollo XII
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Hypatia

In Persian, there is only one third-person pronoun: u (pronounced "oo"). U could mean 'he, she, it'. This has allowed a considerable amount of gender-bending and ambiguous sexuality in Persian love poetry and mystical poetry. Like you can't tell if the poet who has the hots for "u" is gay or straight or bi or what. And love poetry that can be read on two levels, referring to either your girlfriend or God (who is symbolized by a woman). In Sufi poetry, Allah tends to be female. This is more explicit in Arabic, which uses binary gendered pronouns, and calls God "she".

Also in Persian, they use the 3rd-person plural pronoun ishān 'they' for singular persons as a mark of respect for someone of higher status. Like the plural vous in French for a single person, only in the 3rd person.
Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls
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Jaimey

Quote from: FairyGirl on April 27, 2009, 10:18:53 AM
lol don't I know it. "they", "them" are technically plural pronouns and why it is considered incorrect English to refer to a singular person with a plural pronoun. Two or more people are "them". One person is "he" or "she". "anyone" and "anybody" and even "everyone" are considered singular. Language is weird.  ???

Honest truth, I saw/read (I don't remember which) a whole thing about why "he" became the standard for unknown gender/mixed group and it was from a reliable source (otherwise I wouldn't have given it a second thought).  "He" became used arbitrarily during a time when only boys were educated; there was no need to include any gender other than male in the text books.

I've always heard "they" used in both singular and plural cases, the prevalence of which leads me to accept it as valid usage. 

And as far as English teachers go...well, you have to do what they want to earn grades.  The exception is creative writing.  The challenge there is to make it necessary...you have to defend your choice with your story.  If it enriches your story, then it's necessary.  If it's arbitrary, then people aren't going to understand it. 
If curiosity really killed the cat, I'd already be dead. :laugh:

"How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and the strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these." GWC
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imaz

Quote from: Hypatia on April 27, 2009, 12:42:35 PM
In Persian, there is only one third-person pronoun: u (pronounced "oo"). U could mean 'he, she, it'. This has allowed a considerable amount of gender-bending and ambiguous sexuality in Persian love poetry and mystical poetry. Like you can't tell if the poet who has the hots for "u" is gay or straight or bi or what. And love poetry that can be read on two levels, referring to either your girlfriend or God (who is symbolized by a woman). In Sufi poetry, Allah tends to be female. This is more explicit in Arabic, which uses binary gendered pronouns, and calls God "she".

Also in Persian, they use the 3rd-person plural pronoun ishān 'they' for singular persons as a mark of respect for someone of higher status. Like the plural vous in French for a single person, only in the 3rd person.

Italian has "Lei" meaning "She" as the formal singular you, but it only only refers to the the person's status/respectability which in Italian is a feminine noun - signorilita'.

As for the Indonesian He/She/It - "Dia" I mentioned up-thread, it's counterbalanced by the dreadful word "Waria", used against everyone from the most masculine Gay men to the most feminine TS - meaning Woman/Man (Wanita/Pria -> Wa/ria).
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*sigh*

Quote from: Alyssa M. on April 23, 2009, 02:17:16 PM
It's worth a shot. You want to change culture? Well, language is part of culture. It is much more difficult to have an idea if you can't express it in words.

"They" is taking over, and that's a good thing. Facebook uses "they" in status updates if you don't specify your sex. Good for them. It's not just for transgendered/genderqueer people, but for general use; the old rule that if you are referring to an arbitrary person from a group of 99 girls and one boy, you must use "he" is ridiculous, sexist, stupid, confusing, awkward, and just plain lame in every way. Use "they." If you come across a nineteenth-century grammar Nazi who doesn't like it, tell them to get that stick out of their butt.

Just because other languages suck, it doesn't mean we shouldn't improve English. :P ;)  >:-)

But I like how, despite the Academie Francaise's adherence to that stupid sexist rule (not to mention the Academie's existence in general), in French "une personne" is always feminine, even if there is no possibility that the particular "personne" is a woman.  ;D

I agree with languages changing in many respects. I am happy that "they" "their" and "them" evolved to become general pronouns. BUT, did you know that they are NOT gender-neutral? When looking at English it is important that you must consider nearly 85% of our language is borrowed from some one else. All those "gender-neutral" pro-nouns you are crazy about are borrowed masculine pronouns from Scandinavian. "Person" is a feminine word from French, etc. Get the picture? The only reason a gender is emphasized in a word in a language is because YOU give it emphasis, which actually makes you the reverse-sexist in the picture. Because the reality is, no one else cares. I noticed, Alyssa, you didn't really seem to mind much that little feminine pronoun you put in at the end. Possibly because it favors females? Or is that not sexist? I didn't see any one of you complaining about Italian favoring feminine forms in their pro-nouns... Oh no, excuse me, that's not an issue not at all. Plus the fact that you are criticizing languages you don't even speak. How American of you.

The thing I don't get is why on Earth do feminists, just because they are women, think that they speak on the behalf of women everywhere? I'm writing a term paper on sexism in English and guess what, every single woman I have talked to, friends, co-workers, aunts, moms, all of them, DON'T CARE that the general term for our species is mankind. Or that you attach a Mrs. to a married woman. They are women, don't their opinions count in your little committee?

But I guess you all would rather us be wearing blue overalls and referring to each other as comrade. It really is the only way to truly remove the issue of gender from the table. Well, unless you consider properly educating our children in Philosophy, Psychology and Theology courses in order to slowly but surely open the minds of each generation to accepting people of all sexes, races and faiths. Nah, that sounds too simple, lets make everyone re-write languages that have evolved and changed naturally over thousands of years...

And by the way, just because a language doesn't conform to your narrow ideals of what is and isn't right, doesn't mean that it "sucks".

There, a male perspective to freshen up this debate.
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Jaimey

*sigh*, you might want to back off the attitude a bit.  I'm not sure what exactly ticked you off, but I think you've read into things that aren't there.  Alyssa was making a point that in French "personne" is feminine, even if the "personne" isn't.  That's it.  So I'm just not quite sure what ticked you off about her post. 

A good rule of thumb is to not read into things.  Take it at its face value and if you do find yourself upset by something that was written, take a step back before responding.  And for the record, not everyone on here is American and many of them do speak the languages they are talking about. 
If curiosity really killed the cat, I'd already be dead. :laugh:

"How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and the strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these." GWC
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Kaelin

I advocate gender-neutral pronouns, but achieving a natural-sounding standard can be tricky.

Plural English pronouns, regardless of their origin, are considered gender-neutral today, and while grammar purists may object to such use, using them as singular (neutral) pronouns gets my approval.
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Janet_Girl

I really don't get the whole 'Gender Neutral Pronouns'.  Call me old fashion, but I don't see anything wrong with 'he, 'him', 'she' or 'her'.

I have waited along time to hear 'she' and 'her', in reference to me.

Janet


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Kaelin

Gender-neutral pronouns do not necessarily need to be used to the exclusion of gender-specific pronouns.  However, they have value in refering to an unknown individual, like a baker, a banker, a CEO, a criminal, a head of state, a clothing designer, a professional athlete, a math professor, or a clerical worker.  When someone refers to a person with such a title and does not know the person (and hence probably not the gender of the person), they will be compelled to use pronouns at some point, and using gendered pronouns is problematic in that people end up having to assume a gender (usually the stereotypical gender, which tends to reinforce sexist gender roles) or say "he or she" and weaken the flow of the conversation.

For anyone that is an androgyne, neither "he" or "she" will work.

The goal isn't to remove gendered pronouns from language but instead to allow people take away the gender-specification when it is inappropriate to assume one.
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Hypatia

I simply use "she" as the default pronoun when not otherwise specified. After all, we all begin life as female. The male bits are an afterthought.

Besides, it would do men some good to find out how the other half lives, for a change.
Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls
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