Androgynes as transexuals in denial...discussion

[RebeccaFog]

I was an androgyne in denial. Till I began coming out as trans 7 years ago.

Is there any specific manner by which you worked through the denial? Were you aware of the denial the entire time, or is it something you had to learn about yourself?

[Taka]

i don't really think i'm in denial. i used to think i might be ftm, but something didn't feel right about it. not that i'm a woman, but perhaps that i'd rather be hermaphrodite. or a shapeshifter who could change between a male and female body. or maybe cursed like in ranma 1/2

getting stuck in one gender is scary, i'd rather stay me, whichever gender that happens to be at any given time

[Lisbeth]

"Androgynes as transexuals in denial" offends me as much people who say that bisexuals are gays in denial.

[Pica Pica]

Well, it makes me wonder why an androgyne would necessarily be transsexuals in denial and not cis-people in denial.

[Hikari]

Well, it makes me wonder why an androgyne would necessarily be transsexuals in denial and not cis-people in denial.

Interesting thought, but probably because transsexuals are the ones who usually make the statement, and by that logic, they too could be cis-people in denial, so their argument could apply to them as well, just like when gay people tell Bi people that they are in denial, they never say they are straight in denial, as that would invalidate their own sexuality with their own argument.

What I don't get though, is why people don't take people at their word. I mean, I am a MTF, so I have no clue what it would be like to be an FTM and desire to be male, but is someone says they do it is only right that I take them at their word, rather than try to view it through the lens of my desires. Understanding, is not required, only the respect that people are diverse, and their feelings are not all the same.

To say that an androgyne is a transsexual in denial would be tantamount to me saying people don't actually like motorcycles, they would rather be driving a car. Clearly it isn't true, people buy motorcycles all the time, but I don't understand why they do, because I think they are for the most part loud and annoying. My lack of desire to own one though, means nothing to how other people act. My desire to fit more or less into the gender binary of female, likewise has no bearing on how other people think, and why should it?

[foosnark]

One could take this as an insult or as a serious question.  If an insult it's not much different from the trans wars line that non-op TGs are just crossdressers in denial; it's saying "your concept of your identity is invalid."

As a serious question... it's more interesting.  I came to realize I am an androgyne through confronting my feelings about transitioning to female.  I realized that no, I am not just too chicken to go MtF.  I've been male for 39 years and if nothing else, through force of habit that's part of who I am.  (I suspect there's a little more to it than that though; liminality is just part of who I am on a fundamental level.  I've questioned myself on this a few times and I keep coming back to the same answer.

i often see women and have little pulls in that direction. I reckon had i been born a woman, I'd have not discovered myself as an androgyne, yet i still would have been one. I think my preferred social roles are female and so I wouldn't have felt the tug of being an androgyne so strongly - i think i would have gone through life as a slightly disconnected woman. So far I have been going through life as a very disconnected man....Now I am trying to be a connected androgyne, which is hard because to do so you have to discover how androgynes connect.

That describes me as well.  I think I'd have been a semi-tomboy and probably bisexual, and that would have been my identity.

I fantasize sometimes about having a nice female body, but that goes back to wishing I was a shapeshifter.  Outside of those fantasies, I have no interest in going on hormones or wearing breast forms or even dressing too far toward the femme side; if I could choose my ideal form it wouldn't have pronounced masculine or feminine traits.  (Except maybe nice long hair because I miss that.)

[Wintery]

Such a thought-provoking topic! :O

Just to add a few thoughts of my own...A lot of genderqueers are comfortable with their own body and see no need to transition. Also, in the case of feeling neither gender, why go to the other end just to feel as awkward as before? It's all about being comfortable with who you are. Making the outside you match the inside you.

@Taka - love the Ranma 1/2 reference!

[ativan]

I believe it is the other way around, and is caused by the constantness of there being only a binary world.
There are, in reality probably far more Androgynes than transexuals. Transexual is vary limited in just what it means,
while non-binaries have a far larger playing field. The more possibilities, the more probabilities.
That and the fact that one group seems to feel they have to fight the establishment in order to be who they are,
and the other really doesn't give a ->-bleeped-<-. The cis-world for 99.9% of it could care less and have bigger fish to fry.
It is only in the political arena that it appears to be such a problem with the cis. And why their politicians will bring it
up time after time. It makes a good rally point to divert the problems of the real issues that theyhave now painted themselves into a corner again.
Step back and look! It's only in this country and only a group of radicals that are making life miserable.
Ignore them and they have nothing, nothing totake a stand against.
Which is why there are probably far more Androgynes than previously thought.
We just tend to step over their flow of political crap and move on as a whole, instead of 'making a stand'
Mods---this is the sentiment that was taken down with out explanation that amounted to nothing more than 'I don't like it and will not explain why'
that happened the other day. Let it ride, see if there is any discussion that you have a need to be afraid of first.

[RebeccaFog]

We just tend to step over their flow of political crap and move on as a whole, instead of 'making a stand'
Mods---this is the sentiment that was taken down with out explanation that amounted to nothing more than 'I don't like it and will not explain why'
that happened the other day. Let it ride, see if there is any discussion that you have a need to be afraid of first.

I'm a mod but I don't see where you stepped over any line. All sides are valid to express as long as you don't attack a person.

[RebeccaFog]

To me, there is not even a binary anymore. Each individual is a 1 in a language where 1 == true.  The person you speak to now may not be the same person in the future and yet will remain a true.

Maybe one way to refute the 'Androgynes as transsexuals in denial' notion is to point out that there are a number of people who went the entire transition and then half transitioned back because they learned they had misunderstood their choices (or they changed as an individual often does). This, followed by a large number of gender variant people who never even consider full, if any, transition, should be accepted for what it is. Individuals should not have motives projected onto their actions or desires. Individuals define themselves.

Absolutely no person in the entire universe can define the identity of another person despite their personal beliefs and the depth of their training in the sciences or psychology.

Maybe this post is close to creationism on some level because I'm advocating the acceptance of an individual based on what they desire despite whatever 'evidence' that one sees to the contrary.  Really, I'm suggesting removing one's egocentricity in relation to the identities of other people. Remove yourself from the equation.

It's okay if you remark that maybe I should lay off the smack.

[Taka]

Maybe this post is close to creationism on some level because I'm advocating the acceptance of an individual based on what they desire despite whatever 'evidence' that one sees to the contrary.  Really, I'm suggesting removing one's egocentricity in relation to the identities of other people. Remove yourself from the equation.

i support this view. people are a lot more interesting as themselves than as whatever it is one can relate to. figured this out after stopping to think the way other people told me to

[tekla]

To me, there is not even a binary anymore.

In a lot of ways, and for a myriad of reasons, it's either non-existent in many areas now, fast-fading in others.  Most of the old stereotypes don't work anymore.  I always see sports brought up and there are no doubt lots of guys who don't like it, and a huge number of girls who do.  Blame Title IX, I do.  So thinking gender has something to do with liking or not liking sports is, in at least many places in our society and culture, no longer valid. 

Dad's at work, and Mom's home with the kids ... - when that did exist it only existed for a short time, and for a limited number of people.

Lots of families have moms that make more than dad, for whatever reason.

The old ways of defining things are past their past-due dates.

[ZaidaZadkiel]

Im a binary in denial. As in, I just deny I'm binary.

[Raige]

Its sad that discrimination exists in those who should be understanding. Why should I have to pick? Why can't I be the way that I am?