Intro from a closeted, contradictory, confused noob

[nonie]

Hi, I'm Winona.  I'm 22 years old.  I've known I wanted to be a boy since my earliest childhood memories.  I've been engaged to a straight man for 4 years now, and I'm definitely attracted to men almost exclusively.  I haven't told anyone in my family except for one cousin.  I've told most of my close friends and my fiancee, and a lot of them react like it explains a lot of my behavior, but no one really understands it and avoids the subject completely.  It usually just feels like they're pretending I never told them, like it doesn't mean anything.  The only people I've been able to actually talk to about it are gay men.  I don't *think* I want to transition, but mostly because from what I've read, you can't really become a fully functioning physical male.  I also believe in reincarnation (how could I not with all these residual male memories?  I even get phantom phallic sensations) and that I was born a woman for a specific reason.  I have really, really strong maternal feelings and I want to have kids...  But I don't necessarily want to bear them...  But I think it's my purpose in this life, however hokey that sounds.

I don't know.  I'm full of contradictions and problems.  In all my dreams and fantasies, in my mind and heart, and in many of my mannerisms and actions, I'm a gay man.  Physically I'm a pretty, very slender girl, and other girls are always going on about how they wish they had my body.  I always want to say "You can *have* it, it's not really mine anyway."  I have a very fast metabolism and no matter what I eat, I stay thin and feminine, it's like I'm cursed to not only be a girl, but a very delicate, girly girl.  I do put on muscle on my arms easily and kind of want to bulk up and look more manly, but at the same time I feel... kind of like I'd be betraying the desitny of the very nice female package I was born with.  Fast metabolism, good body, pretty face, easy to manage hair, and very easy orgasms, it's like there's not much more you could ask for in a female body except that I don't really want it.  I mean...  Sorry if it sounds like, egoistic or narcissistic or something.  It's like some great big joke, like I should feel self-confident and thankful for what I have, but none of it feels like *me*.

I also have a very active imagination and can kind of "feel" more like a man physically - like to myself, I can make my shoulders feel wider and stop feeling my stupid breasts and that kind of thing.  As long as I don't look down and see myself I can keep it up, and ever since I was little I liked to flirt with boys, pretending I was one and they were flirting back to me as a boy.  I still pretend like that.  I guess it's kind of good that I'm a girl and pretty because I wouldn't actually get that kind of attention from random guys if I *were* really a guy, though I pretend anyway.

My fiancee is kind of only tolerant of my GID.  He tries to be supportive and tells me he wants to let me role-play my fantasies and stuff, but the times we did try it a little it didn't feel like he was really that into it, though I love him for trying.  I haven't cross-dressed since before puberty, though I never wear skirts or dresses because *that's* when I actually feel like I'm cross-dressing. But I have stuffed with socks a few times when I'm at home alone.  I'm actually ordering a packy and stuff to make a chest binder... I don't know how my fiancee's going to react to that, but oh well, he can deal with it.  I might just be projecting my own insecurities on him so that I can stay in my stupid little closet and blame it on him though.  I dunno.

So, hi everyone.  I have never really had a support group or anything before so please forgive me if you're all quite a bit more comfortable with your identities than I am.  Actually, I was in gay/straight alliances and support groups both in and outside of school all the way through middle and high school and I never told anyone there *why* I was there.  Messed up, isn't it?  I did see a shrink for a while, got diagnosed with dysthymia (like small-scale bipolarism) and GID, though they didn't put it in my record so that I wouldn't be medically required to transition or something.  I guess if I ever do want to transition I'll wish I had done it then though, back when I was in my teens...

I guess I came here because I'm looking for people who will understand how I feel.  I haven't been able to find a whole lot of resources online about ftms who identify as gay men, so I feel really alone.  If I'm not in the right place for that, maybe someone can link me to a more appropriate community?  I will totally understand if this is more a place for trasitioning or completely out people and not advice and support for noobs - if so, sorry.  I'm just trying to find someplace to fit in. 

[Buffy]

Hi Winona,

Welcome to Susan's.

You have come to a place that both gives support and can answer some of the questions you are looking for. There is a great bunch of guys here, who I am sure can answer your questions and many like minded people.

Check out the forums and look at the wiki which has a detailed section on FTM. Post questions and you will get replies.

Unfortunately, I personally cannot answer your questions below having spent my life going the other way and never understanding men when I allegedly was one...

Enjoy your time here....

Buffy

[Mario]

Hey Winona,

   Welcome to Susan's. You are welcome here no matter what. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

                                                   Marco

[nonie]

Marco - thanks

Buffy - Thanks, I've been nosing around the forums more and this place looks great.  And I feel you on not understanding those of your biological gender

[Kimberly]

...
but none of it feels like ^*me*.
...

Which indeed could be the whole point, as you mention.


Now granted I say that because as far as I know I took this life to be a boy, and for 30 years I was... until it drove me into the turf. Regardless, I have learned MUCH in this life and do not regret that choice. Although given Testosterone has a horrible way of disfiguring a body I am kind of regretful I wanted so long to transition, but meh. I estimate I could have transitioned (given appropriate world factors being favorable) around my early twenties without really loosing much experience and fairing far better physically. However, I have lead a far from normal life.


So, my general advice is to NEVER write off transition thoughts, and make sure your SO is aware of the possibility. Be honest about it now so it is less likely to come back and bite you later.

In general as long as you can manage with your GID and truly honestly be happy keep that transition idea on the back burner. But if you find you are starting to hate your body and waking up in the morning because of the GID then pull that transition idea back out of the closet and see if something in that mess might make you happier. ... The general trick is reexamine your life/happiness at key points, such as getting engaged, before trying to start a family... things of that nature that deeply involve another. This is because transition has a nasty habit of totally wrecking just about everything in a whole lot of cases. As such it is generally best, I feel, to try and limit the damage we cause to others in our 'choice' to find happiness. (and no if they knew they would not call it choice, I do not think.)


Please feel free to look around, in particular the wiki and the main links page. Oh, and you might like the chat.

An please do not worry about 'fitting in', we are a very diverse and friendly bunch. (An on the off chance if someone isn't friendly I would like to know about it!)

Welcome and enjoy your stay Nonie

P.s. Your SO is welcome here as well by the by.

[HelenW]

Welcome and Hello, Winona!

I'm really glad you found us and started posting.  Susan's is a very diverse site, as you may have noticed, and we accept anyone's unique perspective as valid - even though we may not really get it, hey, that's ok because it's yours and yours alone to decide what's right for you.  I have received a great deal of help and support here and I'm sure you'll find it too.

I'll be looking forward to reading more from you and I'm happy to again say,

WELCOME ! ! 
helen

[Jillieann Rose]

Hi Winona,
It's good to meet you.
Your more thank welcome here at Susan's.
We have people in about every area of TG and ages too.
As far as your sex perference that has very little to do with being TG.
I'm a MTF but men sexually turn me off.

Here comes my speach:
If your look for friends and or information about gender issues this is the place.
Please read the site rules at:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html if you haven't already.
Then check out the Wiki, with ton of info on the gender topics. Oh and check out our chat and links section too. Have a great read.
Welcome to Susan's.

Jillieann

[SusanKay140]

Hello Winona, and welcome.

You are among friends here, regardless of where each of us is on a very wide spectrum of identity.  I would say that until each of us has reached a certain - and very varible and self-determined place on our personal spectrum, few of us are comfortable in our identities.  For the most part they are not identities that are ours, but those assigned by society.  I don't mean the "end" of a process - transition, surgery and total imersion in whatever identity we each strive for, but at a stage that says to me that this is me and further steps are improvements, not changes.  At least I think so; check with me when I get there.

Again, welcome.  I hope I'm not belaboring the obvious when I try to greet new folks with the signature,

Susan Kay, but not the Susan of Susans

[Nero]

Hello Winona.

I guess I came here because I'm looking for people who will understand how I feel.  I haven't been able to find a whole lot of resources online about ftms who identify as gay men, so I feel really alone.  If I'm not in the right place for that, maybe someone can link me to a more appropriate community?  I will totally understand if this is more a place for trasitioning or completely out people and not advice and support for noobs - if so, sorry.

This is a place for everybody - all transgender people and their SOs. Some are in transition, some are not, some have no plans to transition.
We may or may not have some gay FTMs here. I think there's at least one who comes around.
Gay or straight, this is a support group, and the guys and girls here are great about answering any questions you may have.

  I don't *think* I want to transition, but mostly because from what I've read, you can't really become a fully functioning physical male. 

Sadly, with the current procedures, this is true. I've heard both horror stories and positive stories about phalloplasty. Apparently, the worst that could happen is the neo-phallus dies and rots off, the best you could hope for is a somewhat realistic-looking (results vary widely) organ that nevertheless is useless without a pump to get it going.
Maybe the technology will become more advanced in the future and FTM surgery will improve.

I also have a very active imagination and can kind of "feel" more like a man physically - like to myself, I can make my shoulders feel wider and stop feeling my stupid breasts and that kind of thing. 

I used to do this too. When I was in bed at night, I used to close my eyes and I could feel the body I was meant to have.

I'm just trying to find someplace to fit in. 

Honey, if they accept me, they'll accept you.
Welcome and pleased to meet you. <shakes hand>

Nero

[TheBattler]

Hi Wonona,


Wellcome to Susans. I am sure you will fiy in just fine. I am also seaching for an identity that works for me. I now consisder myself as a crossdresser but as I continue on my jurney I am not to sure where I will end up. It is important that you find a life that you are happy with as any unhappiness could lead to emotional problems down the track. I also may have a bit of bipolar as I have many mood swings.


Alice

[tinkerbell]

Hi Winona and welcome to Susan's!
Thank you so much for your introduction.  Don't worry! you have come to the right place and you will find many members in different stages of transition here.  Please feel free to explore the entire site, get familiar with the site rules and also check out the chat room and the wiki.  If you have questions, don't hesitate to ask us, for we are here to help and inform.

Enjoy your stay and keep posting,

tinkerbell

[nonie]

Wow, thanks for making me feel so welcome, everyone!  This is really great.  It's a huge load off my chest to talk about this stuff

As far as transitioning goes, yeah, I do keep it in the back of my mind.  I'm astoundingly repressed I think - in my family we don't really hug or talk about emotions, ever.  I used to be really ashamed of how I felt and I think I really did some damage with that.  It's nothing as bad as some of the other stories I've read around here, it's just...  I think my family would get over it fine.  But somehow I can't imagine telling them yet.  My poor mom worked so hard to raise me a feminist that I think she'll think she did it to me.  But maybe she did that because she knew.  For my birthday one year, she did give me a book of short stories set up around a mother who was paying for her daughter to become a man, maybe that was a hint...  She also used to tell me "Girls can do anything boys can do" and let me run around outside with no shirt on right up until I was 12.  My dad, though, I don't think he'd take it well.  He's already a chronically depressed alcoholic, I don't want to make things worse for him.

Around the friends I grew up with, I feel like I can be myself and be accepted, and they mostly all know and would totally still talk to me if I transitioned.  I don't feel like I can with anyone in Ohio where I live now, but I haven't gotten close enough to anyone to be that hurt if they distanced themselves from me or something.  And I'm a freelance artist and work from home with online clients I never meet, so there's no risk of me losing my job. 

I guess there's really no huge obstacle to me transitioning, I just don't think I want to do anything permanent at this point.  I've been working myself up for years to even start cross-dressing.

I dunno.  Maybe I'm the only one who cares at all.  I don't like to talk to my SO (see, I'm picking up the lingo, cool, huh?) about it even though he keeps telling me it's okay.  He just really noticeably clams up and it's so unusual to see him nervous.  He's never nervous or awkward (like ever, not even performing live shows with his band or job interviews or public speaking) except when I talk about my gender stuff.  And it's not that he doesn't try, because he really does.  I just don't feel confident he'd still find me attractive.  He's totally straight - he has some mannerisms more typical of a gay man than a straight one, which is part of why I love him, but he really has no attraction to masculine anything.  So I dunno, it makes me scared to talk to him about it.

But I guess talking to him about it more should be the next step.

Another thing I wanted to mention is that I think when people meet me they can sometimes kind of sense it, even though I dress and look like a girl.  Does that (or the reverse of it) happen to others here too?  It's probably because of my behavior and mannerisms and the way I act toward others.  But girls play-flirt with me they same way they would with a gay guy, and gay guys seriously seem to gravitate to me.  Maybe because I'm so friendly to them.  But sometimes not even talking to them besides taking their orders a couple times at the coffee bar I worked at, they would come and sit by me when I was off-duty or on break and want to talk for hours.  (I used to work in a coffee bar on campus where a lot of the clientelle was gay men anyway, but no girls and only one straight guy ever did that, and I can't even count on one hand the gay guys who did.)  And in high school all of the guys I dated but one have since come out as gay or bi.  It kind of feels good that they would give me at least part of the same kind of attention they'd give me if I had the right body, but at the same time I know they're still seeing my physical body and face.  And it explains why I couldn't get any of the guys I dated in high school to get very physical   It feels awesome to be in a relationship where your partner is really turned on by you, both your brain and your body, but it does kind of suck when that body isn't *really* you.

[Jillieann Rose]

Wonona,
Yes you answered your own question about transitioning . You need to talk to your boy friend SO about it. See what he thinks. Honesty is the only way. Any good relationship has two ingrediance, honesty, and compromise, give and take that is.
As far as telling others about being a TG I beleive it should be on a need to know basics. At least until you know which way you are going.

Jillieann

[Robyn]

Wonona,
You need to talk to your boy friend SO about it. See what he thinks. 
Jillieann

Jillieann is right about that, but also VERY important is to have a gender identity counselor with whom to talk.  That is A#1 in my book. 

There is at least one Gay FTM newslist called ->-bleeped-<-->-bleeped-<-s,  My husband used to belong, but I don't know the URL.  Perhaps it's in our links area.  If you can't find it, I'll try to remember to ask him.  (We're 2400 miles apart at the moment.)

Robyn

[nonie]

Thanks for the advice   I've got to kind of wean him into a discussion about it, he often complains that my serious talks come out of nowhere.  I kind of bottle and explode when it comes to any feelings that might be taken negatively, I guess.  But I don't think I would want to do a full transition.  I'm happy to be a pretty girl sometimes, I think I want the ability to be both, even if I can't really pass as I am now.  But I won't know until I try it.

reikirobyn - I'm definitely going to look for that newslist, thank you

[Dennis]

Welcome Winona. Sounds like you've done a lot of introspection and your head is in a good, solid place. As others have said, don't worry about the future too much. If you get to the point where you need to transition, you will. Just make sure your partner is aware of what you're going through so it isn't a surprise to him.

Enjoy your stay here,

Dennis

edit: I can't believe I used 'your' instead of 'you're'.

[Shannon]

Hello Winona,

Welcome to Susan's.  Be sure to check out the Reference Library and the WIKI.  Lots of good information there.  I would not worry about transitioning until you feel its time to do so.  As for your partner, always maintain an open line of communication and be open and honest so he really knows your intentions and feelings.  If your relationship with him is meant to be then he will understand.  I look forward to reading more from you.  Take care and again welcome!   

Hugs,

Shannon

[Furanshisu]

Hi. Glad to see your post! I totally understand about the thin female body-to-kill for and metabolism thing and wondering about wasting it, though I identify more with no gender I guess- or maybe this is another obsession for my OCD. I wish I didn't have matchstick arms. It was really funny when me and a school group went to Japan and they were complaining about how they were too chunky for the clothes- I guess America really does have a weight problem! I'm an illustration major entering senior year of college, so yay for art!

I've been engaged to a straight man for 5 years, when I talked to him about these androgyny thoughts, he used to get upset because he was scared that I was trying to leave him. Now he listens because he knows that's not it. Perhaps yours reacts strangely because he's afraid of something messing up the relationship, or perhaps if your sex is legally changed it might prevent you two getting married at this time because of the stupid government, or mine used to be worried that what if people would be mean to us if they thought we were gay because its the bad intolerance stuff one hears about more (we used to get harassed in high school, though for other reasons).

I wonder though, if you were raised as a feminist, how do you not get paranoid about all the paranoid talk about subtle discrimination stuff? Like paranoid if it ever contaminated your feelings of not wanting to be female? Maybe its a bad question to ask you since you've known since childhood and I didn't think about that stuff until more recently, but I've grappled with those issues and I really want to know because my issues started partly out of fear of discrimination but I can't accept that mine is purely paranoia based, and I find it more confusing because females seem to incorporate more of both traditional male and female traits now and labeling traits thusly seems so pointless in a way to me.

I've felt a phantom penis a few times too, though I used to have fears of ghosts trying to feel me up and the occasional psychosomatic tingle, so I don't always trust feelings in myself.  I'm glad someone else has finally mentioned that though. When I used to research therianthropy (to be brief, sort of transspecies feelings), they described a lot of phantom limb things, like of ears or tails, so I was wondering if people got that for gender stuff. too. 

I was also wondering, how do you know if you're acting more like a "typical" gay man than a hetero man or female? I mean, I know you'd know in reality because you've met so many rather than just going by TV or something, and I've met some too, but I was wondering since the stereotype points more toward feminine behavior, how do you distinguish it? (I've investigated this possibility of myself but I was afraid I was just thinking in stereotypes, and I don't talk to people so much yet as I've been afraid of social situations).

I was particularly struck by how your mom let you run w/ your shirt off outside- not being allowed to is one of my earliest memories and has something to do with my issues because it was discrimination and makes me angry. My personality seems to be polarized and sometimes contradictory too.

Sorry I'm egocentric, but I was just wondering if you had any insight into these, but hell, this bothers me on and off so some days I don't care and some days I do.

[Kimberly]

...
When I used to research therianthropy (to be brief, sort of transspecies feelings), they described a lot of phantom limb things, like of ears or tails, so I was wondering if people got that for gender stuff. too. 

For me my therian stuff tends to be like my gender stuff, but not really similar to phantom limbs but rather 'knowing' what the body should be like and 'knowing' what isn't right about what currently is.

I hope that is of some help.

[nonie]

Well, to me, because of my odd spiritual beliefs, therian stuff makes perfect sense because you could be a reincarnated animal.  I know some people who I swear had to be dogs in past lives because of some personality traits they had - really quick attatchment to people, extreme loyalty, ADD and overexcitability, agitation and constant movement, seeming inability to control to volume of their voices... one guy I know actually pants a little.  And I have some catlike things, I like being petted, I actually feel this urge to purr when people play with my hair, I'm very physically affectionate, I hate getting my feet or hands wet and have a general aversion to water though I like it once I'm in it, I hate getting my body dirty, I occasionally bite playfully or affectionately, silly little things like that...  I don't think it was as recent a life as one of my male lives must have been, but I do think I must have spent a life as a cat.  When you think about how many cats and dogs there are in the world, it seems to make sense that so many people identify as canines or felines, too.  And believing in reincarnation tends to usher in other things like believing in ghosts and astral projection, and I have definitely felt like I was being psychically or astrally attacked when sleeping before...  Scary stuff.  But yeah, if you think reincarnation is BS, then I don't have anything else really.  It's the only way I can explain my own feelings, the way some things I learn so fast I must be remembering them.  Like my mom doesn't remember ever teaching me to read.  She doesn't remember me not being able to.  I just could always read.  Learning to draw felt more like learning to move my new, alien arms to make them able to do what I already knew how to, almost.

Since posting my introduction, I've become totally sure I'm going to transition.  I guess my body-to-kill-for is just going to have to adapt a little   I've been working it out, trying to help it get acquainted with the idea of being a male body-to-kill-for, and my arms are getting bigger but I guess we'll see soon enough. I've also since told my SO, and he at first was supportive, then tried to throw me out, then asked me to stay.  He's going to try to be strong and stay with me, but I'm guessing he will feel differently when I start to change...  But again, we'll see.

Ah, the feminist thing.  Well, feminism *says* things like "women can do anything men can do" but it also kinda monsterizes men.  *My* mom didn't, but she had a lot of friends who would talk all kinds of sh*t and really messed up their own male kids because of it, but my mom tried to sheild us from that.  Thinking back, my mom never pushed anything on me or my brother except nonviolence, everything else she tried to nudge us to our own conclusions.  Religion, social stuff, dating, sex, she never told us anything, she just gave us room to explore, I guess.  Nothing was forbidden and she didn't do much to control us, she was just there for us, kind of.  Funny how we ended up emotionally repressed psychos, both of us

I used to tell my friends I thought my mom was disappointed because I didn't end up a lesbian.  Just certain ways she reacted to things...  Didn't seem to like that I dated boys, but she just never said anything outright so I could never know for sure.  She seemed very upset when I told her I was engaged.  But now I think she knew all along that I wanted to be a boy, and maybe that was part of why she was so loose with me.  And I was misreading her reactions to things...  Maybe she wanted me to like girls because she knew I was really a boy and thought I was repressing liking girls or wanted me to be a straight guy.  But she always loved all my gay friends, so I know she's not homophobic.  She asked about them more than my other friends.  Gah.  The more I think about it the more I think she knew, but I don't want to actually believe it because my coming out letter to her is still in the mail and if she ends up flipping out, I don't want it to be a shock either.  I just really don't know her very well for someone who was raised by her...

Ok, How do I know I'm acting more like a typical gay man than a hetero one?  Well, hetero men are still kind of a mystery to me.  I feel like I generally understand girls, but gay men are my specialty.  I don't think I could act hetero male if I tried.  I don't act normal for a girl, but being pretty, girls let me walk all over them and just count me as "unique" and "cool."  I dunno.  Getting pretty-girl treatment throws some of the parameters off, but people react to how you act, and straight girls play-flirt with me all the time, the way they would with a gay guy, which I guess is evidence...  I know for sure I son't act like a straight guy.  I just don't, I'm too talkative and emotive and tactile and (I hate to use this word) flamboyant...  Gay guys take me in as one of their own for the most part.  And my behavior is definitely different from the normal girl...  I "window-shop" more than they do, I actually hold a lot of my comments back when people-watching because girls do not think as sexually as I seem to.  Every guy I look at, I evaluate for looks, like his body type, his face, his hair, his clothes, his movements, nothing slips by.  Oddly, when doing this I'm trying to guage whther he's gay, bi, or maybe thinks he's straight but has a secret bit of gayness that I could find if I hit on him just right...  Which makes no sense because I'm a girl, yeah, that counts as evidence.  It's not like I'm actively shopping or something, I just naturally do it.  Girls notice some guys, but they're not nearly as thorough, and they like the gross over-macho straight ones too   Girls tend to be more passive than me, which is why I keep saying they let me walk all over them.  On first meeting me, even in groups where the social hierarchy is well-established, they let me take a leadership role instantly, I guess because I'm assertive and a little intimidating...  Girls are more interested in romance than me and talk about their bodies a lot more than I do.  Also, I never wear makeup, and girls who don't wear makeup get pushed into getting makeovers all the time, but nobody tries to give me one.  If they do, they giggle about it like they would if they were giving a guy a makeover.

It's just little things, feelings.  There's no single, concrete, definitive thing that makes me think that, just the sum of a lit of little things, but I'm sure many people with gender issues have the same situation, just going by an overwhelming number of "feelings" and "little things."  Little things have a big impact.