Tenn. unknowingly marries transgender couple; subject jailed as man, identifies

[Arch]

By genitals is the general rule. But would post-op FTM had external male genitalia (even made by a doctor)?

I fixed my response so it makes more sense. Most FTMs of my acquaintance haven't had phallo...in fact, I only know of one, offhand. And a lot of them are completely done and legally male in all respects.

Except with the county jail, apparently.

[DarkLady]

I am sorry about my ignorance but in that case most FTM:s go to female prisons. (Solitary confiment it think.) Is it what is between your legs.

[Vexing]

I recently learned from a reliable source--though I have yet to verify it--that my own city houses inmates based on genitals. So an FTM can be totally finished with his transition and be legally male with the DMV, SSA, and vital records office (for the birth cert) but still be housed with female inmates because he never had phallo.

This strikes me as more than a little problematic. Especially when there's a lot of facial hair involved.

In many ways, I think he would be safer with the female inmates than with the males...

[DarkLady]

In case you do not have a penis male prison is dangerous as death to you.

[Arch]

In many ways, I think he would be safer with the female inmates than with the males...

Probably, but I would much prefer solitary in a male prison. Not that there's much chance of my being arrested, but you never know.

Then again, it's not just the inmates I would have to worry about. If the male guards decide they don't like me, that could get pretty interesting. To put it mildly.

It's just that I become extremely uncomfortable and nervous around crowds of women. I'm usually okay with equally mixed crowds, and I'm fine with individual women in very small groups of one to three or so. But in larger groups of women only, my mommy issues kick in, and I start to feel outnumbered and threatened. Yet another thing to work on in therapy...

But, yes, I would actually BE safer in a women's prison.

[tekla]

I would actually BE safer in a women's prison.

You just don't even have a clue as to what kind of girls get to go to prison do you?  I wouldn't worry about what's between your legs, when you get in there, its all about the color of your skin.

[DarkLady]

According the information we have this TS-woman seems to be pre-op.

However it remains unsolved how TN would house in a post-op MFf with vagina in the practice. There are controversal information and not enough evidence to pressume it either way.

[Genevieve Swann]

The solutionis to get the hell out of Tennessee before sundown.

[NicholeW.]

The solutionis to get the hell out of Tennessee before sundown.

Hmm, that's prolly not a particularly good solution for those here who live there and there are some, including the board owner.

N~

[FairyGirl]

Even the officials in TN don't know what the law is. I live in Nashville and belong to a local TS support group with a mailing list. The following letter was sent to the mailing list to try and explain some of the confusion surrounding this:

If one is born in Tennessee they cannot change the gender on their birth
certificate. You can get a court ordered name change but if you want it on the
birth certificate they just strike out the birth name then type on the new one
so still very obvious. However, once a Transsexual is issued a US Passport in
their new identity it trumps that Tennessee birth certificate, you are no longer
obligated to identify as that baby or ever present that birth certificate again.

Marriage laws are completely separate. In Knoxville a post-transition
Female-to-Male Transsexual native Tennessean had changed his Driver License
gender marker while living in California, so when he moved back to TN his TN
license was issued with Male on it instead of the birth gender. That FTM then married
a female-identified "born Female" in 1998. They stayed married
for 8 years before he chose to divorce. As far as the state of Tennessee is
concerned he is just another Man. His wife transitioned during the marriage. Dec
2005 Mrs R became a second Mr R. Jan 01, 2006, Tennessee enacted a ban on
same-sex marriage. Later that year first Mr R filed for divorce. It was granted
on the grounds that second Mr R is now legally male so they were a same sex
couple as 2 MALES so the divorce was granted without prejudice.

So here we have proof that there are no genetic tests in Tennessee for marriage
(there are in parts of Texas), and the couple in your article are not the first
"natal same-sex" marriage by many years (1998 vs 2007, and I witnessed 2 others
in past 3 years). Whatever is on your ID is what you are when you get a marriage
license in every county in this state. And we have case law for a transitioned
Transsexual to be recognized in the new gender. That completely contradicts this
media report. The difference here is that neither of these FTMs were criminals,
neither faked surgery letters, neither lied, neither had to be strip searched at
a prison.

All I can say is thank goddess I was born in another state where you can easily get your birth certificate gender marker changed. I am planning GRS at some point next year but will probably stay in TN... at any rate I am a quiet person and do not plan to do anything illegal to end up another sad story on the evening news.

[lisagurl]

Like the letter tells a "Passport" trumps the Birth Certificate. There is never a need to change the Birth Certificate.

[NicholeW.]

If a 'crocodile Dundee check' is performed, the determining factor, what - under normal circumstances - would cause them to think anything otherwise (unless of course 'born in TN' in which case i would probably consider *moving*)?

Any POST OPS from TN here willing to volunteer, test & satisfy DarkLady's curiosity? (sheeze - too close to GA for my comfort!)

I rather think not, but now that she is maybe she could emigrate from Finland to Clarksville and see how that works!!

Just kiddin', Dark Lady, stay in Helsinki, even if you think it's bad there, there are worse places to be.  

[FairyGirl]

If one is really interested in finding out the law on this you can look up the TN state legal codes, it's all there.

See the same news story here:

www. concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090514/NEWS03/905140324/1013

Note the last paragraph (emphasis mine):

Montgomery Sheriff's Department spokesman Ted Denny told the Associated Press yesterday that Rittenberry is being housed with men and was patted down by both male and female officers because Rittenberry has breasts and male genitalia.

Link broken to maintain integrity of Rule 1 of the TOS --- the information was left because the link itself is an important piece of the factual basis for this thread. --- Nichole

[DarkLady]

I absolutely not going to any jail to satisfy my curiosity. 

[NicholeW.]

I absolutely not going to any jail to satisfy my curiosity. 

I don't think anyone would expect you to!!

[Cyndigurl45]

I need to toss in some "what if's" just to make you go Hmmm based on the case and point, she was housed based on external genitals suppose a M2F has been nullified both penis and testicals and scrotum completly removed but no internal parts? And I have two F2M friends both have had total hysto top surgury but one has had her vagail canal removed a set of prostetic testicals implanted and every thing sewn shut, he uses a penis pump on his enlarged clitoris and does very well standing to pee, he can almost penetrate a woman, everyone has had there birth records changed and other documents reflect there apperance, I wonder where they would be housed?

[DarkLady]

In most other states than the deep south it means vagina or penis. The placement decision is done by external genitalia.

[NicholeW.]

In most other states than the deep south it means vagina or penis. The placement decision is done by external genitalia.

DL, as I said in the other thread, where are you getting your facts? Have you done the legal and procedural research and found evidence for the things you're writing on these threads? If so, please send along some proof of that so as a staff-member I can post links to the info and we aren't just relying totally on speculation and our ideas about what "the deep South" of USA is like.

I suspect it's not much like Helsinki at all, but it may not be as uniformly horrendous as yours and other's statements as though they are facts make it out to be. Show some proof, please, for the things you say.

Thanks so much,

Nichole

[Cyndigurl45]

I don't think your gonna find any real hard facts or links, I work parttime for one those deep south agencies and I can tell you the duck factor plays big if your not familiure with the duck factor it's simple if looks, walks and sounds like a duck then it's a duck, so while a person is being booked they are strip searched and issued an orange jump suit while the strip search is being done if somethings don't match up the jailer will call the high sheriff and have him come on down for a lookie see and he will make the final say so usually based on the duck factor, and toss em in the drunk tank, wake up cousin Judge and hold court just as fast as he can to get the "freeq" outa his jail "his words not mine" while that's going on the jailer has done called everyone she knows and knocked the rummor mill into high gear, all that while the books are kept strait so no law suits occur and everything looks good on paper i.e. No links or data PC correct. Fortunatlly I befriended her and she was not harmed while waiting arraingnment for solcitation and her secret is safe with me, mainly because she knows mine and gave me some awesome makeup tips

[DarkLady]

Perhaps in Mississippi. I have asked my question from too many peolple to agree with you. Including one former law enforment official from the old south.