Why…

[dyssonance]

Cindy,

Its not about running around and saying look at me, I'm transgender.

Or at least, I hope not -- if so, I'm doing it wrong.

Its about recognizing that as someone who has had to transition, in your case, you are special, and unique, and incredible, and that a part of what makes you specia, and unique, and incredible is the fact you are trans -- you had to do that.

You are different. I am different.  Embrace it, love it, wallow in it, live through it, and know that being different is a good thing, a needed thing, an important thing -- and all you have to do is be.

You are not wrong to be different. We may not even want to be different. Hell, I'd give up one arm, both legs, and my eyeballs to be less different at times -- but look how different I will be then.

Instead of seeing that difference as something bad -- which, by extension, makes the act of being different bad -- see it as something good and empowering.

And the great thing is that sometimes being different means you won't agree.

Lisagurl,

Gender in what way? Gender can be a gender role, a gender identity, or a social gender.  The rest is sex -- physiological.

[Cindy]

Hi Dyss,

Maybe I did get it wrong. But everyone is different, thank evolution. I'm not totally happy to be different in my gender identity; but I am different in other ways to other people. What's the song? 'Vive le difference' as you can tell french is not a forte . I'm happy to celebrate the differences between human beings at all levels. That accepted; do labels add any value? I think that was my point.
There are definitly difference that we rejoice, accept or definitly don't want to have. Not all differences are nice. I'm totally accepting of race, religon, sexual preference and age. One of the saddest meetings I have had was with a gay, effeminate, Aboriginal Australian. He was alcoholic, unemployable, and (if I may be rude) remarkably ugly. I met him because he had just been diagnosed as HIV positive after being raped in prison, and I was doing his blood tests. Not all differences are celebratory. Sorry if I got off the thread Dyss.

Love

Cindy

[lisagurl]

Lisagurl,

Gender in what way? Gender can be a gender role, a gender identity, or a social gender.  The rest is sex -- physiological.

Physical gender is the genitals . Sex is optional and can even be done with other species or alone. Roles are roles be it occupation, social construct, family member or any number of games people play. Everything is not always black or white. I sure would not want it that way.

[dyssonance]

Labels allow us to describe to tohers what it is we experience in a manner that they will understand.

Labels seek to be accurate, specific.  There are a hundred different kinds of apple.  But a Macintosh apple is different from a Braeburn apple.

We can all cling to woman, female, human, whatever, but we are still trans.  Maybe not transgender, maybe not transsexual, but trans?  yeah.  We crossed. Or are crossing.  Or will cross.

Doesn't make everyone happy to know that -- but I can't deny that a part of my is black, a part of me is red, a part of me is white. Better I embrace all of them, than do myself a disservice.

Lisa,

Physical Gender?  Have to excuse me, but that's a notion I haven't heard sufficiently described since the late 1960s.

Genitals are physiology -- that's not gender, that's sex. Specifically, that's primary sexual characteristics (which are typically followed by secndary sex characteristics).

So I have to ask you to clarify how you use Gender in this case, adn differentiate it from sex (or are you ignoring the 50 years of evidence that established gender as separate from sex?).

[lisagurl]

Labels allow us to describe to tohers what it is we experience in a manner that they will understand.

Labels seek to be accurate, specific.  There are a hundred different kinds of apple.  But a Macintosh apple is different from a Braeburn apple.

We can all cling to woman, female, human, whatever, but we are still trans.  Maybe not transgender, maybe not transsexual, but trans?  yeah.  We crossed. Or are crossing.  Or will cross.

Doesn't make everyone happy to know that -- but I can't deny that a part of my is black, a part of me is red, a part of me is white. Better I embrace all of them, than do myself a disservice.

Lisa,

Physical Gender?  Have to excuse me, but that's a notion I haven't heard sufficiently described since the late 1960s.

Genitals are physiology -- that's not gender, that's sex. Specifically, that's primary sexual characteristics (which are typically followed by secondary sex characteristics).

So I have to ask you to clarify how you use Gender in this case, adn differentiate it from sex (or are you ignoring the 50 years of evidence that established gender as separate from sex?).

sex

The property or quality by which organisms are classified as female or male on the basis of their reproductive organs and functions.
Either of the two divisions, designated female and male, of this classification.
Females or males considered as a group. The condition or character of being female or male; the physiological, functional, and psychological differences that distinguish the female and the male. See Usage Note at gender. The sexual urge or instinct as it manifests itself in behavior. Sexual intercourse. The genitals.



Gender comprises a range of differences between men and women, extending from the biological to the social. At the biological level, men and women are typically distinguished by the presence of a Y-chromosome in male cells, and its absence in female cells. At the social level, however, there is debate regarding the extent to which the various biological differences necessitate differences in social gender roles and gender identity, which has been defined as "an individual's self-conception as being male or female, as distinguished from actual biological sex

You can debate labels or look at reality.
There are not enough labels to be specific or accurate. Individuals defy type casting.

[RebeccaFog]

I agree with Matilda. There are some who want nothing to do with the 'trans' label or community even though they still mingle with others. 

If someone identifies as only male or female, man or woman, then that is what they are. It is an identity thing. I think we do some people wrong by trying to convince them they have been and will always be a transperson.


I agree with lisagurl too.

But then I agree with nearly everybody. I'm wishy-washy and easily influenced, I guess. Or maybe I'm a mirror and I reflect back what others see in and about themselves.

[ArleneTgirl]

We are a diverse group within our own culture.  Understanding that and accepting and supporting each other, as we are should be what we strive for.  Although new to this forum, I find the same arguments in our local support group.  Certain people are intent on labeling others, and insisting that it defines them.  It just rolls off the backs of many of us, but so many others are fragile, and just growing into themselves, nor do they have the experience or the knowledge to stand up for themselves. It can be disconcerting at the very least for them, and can completely drive them away from a place that is supposed to be safe and supportive. Of course, that's only my take on these issues.

[dyssonance]

No, you are what you are, and I am what I am, which is fundamentally different from what you are/believe yourself to be.

Transition is an incredible physical, mental, and emotional journey. One that we all enter into with our own unique backgrounds, circumstances and expectations. So it should not be surprising that "the community" is as diverse as it is.  Still, let's be courteous, and try to avoid the "we", "we", "we" comments please.  Trust me, blanket statements don't work well around these parts.

It is highly unlikely I will avoid we statements when talking about the wider community (and note that contextually, we are doing precisely that).

You might like to place quotes about the community, in much the same way that opponents of marriage for everyone put them around gay marriage. You do so when speaking of courtesy, though, which is, well, of questionable merit.

However, those minor and insignificant points aside, I have to note that you are not Cis.  It appears unlikely based on your description of your experiences that you are Inter -- you strike me as someone who tends to stick with singularity over plurality in your sense of self.

That makes you trans. Not transgender, not transsexual, just trans.

You may not claim to be such.  That's ok.  I'm not asking you to do so, I'm not expecting you to do so.

Facts is facts, though -- I won't step aside form them to ease someone's personal self vision.

And if blankets statements don't work well, then why did you use four of them?


Post Merge: May 27, 2009, 04:49:51 PM

You can debate labels or look at reality.
There are not enough labels to be specific or accurate. Individuals defy type casting.

The word reality *is* a label.

So when discussing labels, you are *are* looking at reaity.  And using labels to explain what you perceive to others.

Every noun is a label.

Type casting is something different from labeling -- that's setting up a stereotype -- and *everyone* will do so, based on their own experiences, starting with the first encounter and then growing as the encounter more.

Go ahead and describe something without using a label -- indeed, the label we have here for you is lisagurl, for me, dyssonance.

We all have *many* labels.  dozens. hundreds for some.

The variety comes from the sum of them


Post Merge: May 27, 2009, 05:54:01 PM

We are a diverse group within our own culture.  Understanding that and accepting and supporting each other, as we are should be what we strive for.  Although new to this forum, I find the same arguments in our local support group.  Certain people are intent on labeling others, and insisting that it defines them.  It just rolls off the backs of many of us, but so many others are fragile, and just growing into themselves, nor do they have the experience or the knowledge to stand up for themselves. It can be disconcerting at the very least for them, and can completely drive them away from a place that is supposed to be safe and supportive. Of course, that's only my take on these issues.

Interestingly enough, the argument over someone being trans or not is a sideline to the cntext of the overall thread, which is discussion of the questions I asked in my post.

The questions go to the heart of one of the things that these arguments dance around -- for example, *why* is it so important for some people to deny being trans?

What's wrong with being trans -- why do they insult everyone else?

Often, the answers arn't really something they are aware of.

Ask those questions in your support group.  Listen to the responses, and then ask *why*.  That's what makes a difference, and what allows people to start to see how their own actions and language maintain a status quo of self defamation and defeatist habits.

[ArleneTgirl]

Interestingly enough, the argument over someone being trans or not is a sideline to the cntext of the overall thread, which is discussion of the questions I asked in my post.

The questions go to the heart of one of the things that these arguments dance around -- for example, *why* is it so important for some people to deny being trans?

What's wrong with being trans -- why do they insult everyone else?

Often, the answers arn't really something they are aware of.

Ask those questions in your support group.  Listen to the responses, and then ask *why*.  That's what makes a difference, and what allows people to start to see how their own actions and language maintain a status quo of self defamation and defeatist habits.

Actually, I never said there was anything wrong with being trans.  The point I was making is that "we" or some individuals are telling them they can't be transexxual because they are non-op, or are a CD because they are not full time, or whatever their particular circumstance is.  It appears that some individuals are intent on setting up a heirarchy based on whatever stage that individual is at.  Debate is educational when done with the right spirit, but to be constantly contrary and take exception with every statement someone makes is negative and certainly contrary to helping and supporting trans people (since this is a trans forum).  I'm sure you will have a come back for this post as well, and I'm beginning to see why people may very well abondon this site for a friendlier place.

[lisagurl]

Type casting is something different from labeling

No, it is language which has different meanings for you and me. Just as "reality" without qualifiers can mean many things including myth.  Individuals have different experiences and different moral codes. We group with like kind. You are not my like kind so the vague insinuation from your language does not sit comfortably. You seem also to tailor your presentation to what you think people want to hear. That does make you inconsistent and impossible to be close to. Perhaps you think it makes you friends but in many cases it drives people away.

[dyssonance]

Actually, I never said there was anything wrong with being trans.  The point I was making is that "we" or some individuals are telling them they can't be transexxual because they are non-op, or are a CD because they are not full time, or whatever their particular circumstance is.  It appears that some individuals are intent on setting up a heirarchy based on whatever stage that individual is at.  Debate is educational when done with the right spirit, but to be constantly contrary and take exception with every statement someone makes is negative and certainly contrary to helping and supporting trans people (since this is a trans forum).  I'm sure you will have a come back for this post as well, and I'm beginning to see why people may very well abondon this site for a friendlier place.

ArleneTgirl,

Before I continue with the rest, I want to pause a moment and examine something you said.

For one, I never said that *you* said such.  I said *some people* say such -- and asked why. 

Not one of my questions is ever a rhetorical question.  I do not ask such.  I ask a LOT of questions, and I ask them to get answers. I readily admit I'm over educated -- because I ask questions, and I like to hear the answers, even when people don't agree with me.  Sometimes I ask why don't people agree with me on a particular point -- and sometimes the answer is apparent from experience and knowledge.

I am not knocking you, directly.  I have a very specific way of going after these things because I've spent a lot of time considering the sideline argument here, and I am absolutely unsparing in my effort to go deeper into it than is comfortable -- even for me.

Your point:

"The point I was making is that "we" or some individuals are telling them they can't be transexxual because they are non-op, or are a CD because they are not full time, or whatever their particular circumstance is.  It appears that some individuals are intent on setting up a heirarchy based on whatever stage that individual is at. "

is what I am agreeing with.

I disagree that they should be doing such.  There are transfolk, and cisfolk and folks who are inbetween.

Some folks like the old labels of man and woman. Those are fine -- they are welcome to them.  But they are not the only options out there, and the science is far beyond that point.

I do occasionally ask easy questions.  Usually I ask hard ones.  The harder, the more you want to avoid it as the questions I asked someone else were avoided, the more important, ultimately, that question is to them.

The posting that followed the referenced on up is called "because".  IT explains why I asked those questions, and in truth, they are not simple or easy questions.  People don't like it when they have it pointed out to them that they are doing things that undermine their own sense of self worth.

My history, as many here can attest, lol, is one of standing up for CD's -- even though I admit I don't understand, I don't get it.  I don't need to get it to stand up for them.  I stand up for genderqueer and androgynes.  I stand up for non-ops, post ops, pre-ops, transsexual, transvestites whatever -- They are kith and kin.

hell, I've even stood up for Ms. Platine, and she and I are sorta mortal enemies.

Do I cut through certain arguments without sparing feelings? Yes.  I am not nice.  I freely admit such.  I am kind, however.

Lisagurl,

If language has different meaning, then we are not speaking the same language.  IF we aren't doing that, we aren't communicating.

I'm not interested in making friends, if I were, I'd be substantially less disliked. I'm interested in far more critical thought and my particular areas of sociology, psychology, and religion.  Or, as was noted one day, sex, drugs, and rock and roll.

Its my cross.  Balsa wood, though, so I can hang.

Matilda,

The greatest things about forums is you can always avoid discussions where you are uncomfortable. This is why you don't see me running hither and yon here making all manner of commentary.

I avoid involvement in things I am ignorant on -- and implacable otherwise.

Oh, and a decent devil's advocate would go on to the bitter end.  Trust me -- its been my role for a while.

[Fer]

I don't identify as nothing else but female either.

[Shana A]

My history, as many here can attest, lol, is one of standing up for CD's -- even though I admit I don't understand, I don't get it.  I don't need to get it to stand up for them.  I stand up for genderqueer and androgynes.  I stand up for non-ops, post ops, pre-ops, transsexual, transvestites whatever -- They are kith and kin.

hell, I've even stood up for Ms. Platine, and she and I are sorta mortal enemies.

Thanks for saying this Dyssonance! This is how I endeavor to live as well. I'm one of those who lives in between (or outside) binary gender, but I defend the right of all trans, cis and other people to identify as they choose, and make conscious effort to understand why they identify as they do.

Z

[ArleneTgirl]

To Dyssonance:  Sorry if I misread your reply.  Your topics certainly bring forth discussions.  Being the facilitator of a support group, my role is to make people comfortable in their transition.  It's hard to change that mind set at times, and I tend to go into "protect mode".  Of course, this topic was meant to make us think, and it has done that.

[dyssonance]

ArleneTgirl,

no need to apologize!  I'm just glad that you let me know, as that's the most important part of dialog -- making sure you understand each other

One flaw I have is that I think way too much at times.

There is an old skill I learned many many years ago. ITs called the 5 why's.  Take an answer to any one of the questions, and then ask a new why question about that answer.  Then you do it the same to the next answer.  THen again to the one after that. In the end, you go five levels deep.

The skill comes in knowing what to ask about, and in being able to see when people start to circle back. Usually that's around the third level, when people suddenly reference an earlier answer as the answer to the question, or they avoid it.  That means you've hit a point where there is something to learn. The goal is to get to 5 levels, because that's where you learn something new about whatever you are talking about.

when I was in my 20's, I used it to learn about myself, following the old dictum "Know Thyself".

It wasn't until I hit my 40's, though, that I escaped denial using it -- and I was so deep it took 15 levels and a week of working at it hard.

So I ask a lot of questions (21 to 105, 105 to 525, 525 to 3125, etc).  But in the course of asking, you get some really awesome answers.

When you ask questions, people get upset.

When you ask a lot, you get used to it

[Ell]

I don't identify as nothing else but female. Not Ts, Tg or trans, just female.  The epiphany I've had of late is that the language we use to describe ourselves and our situations is either for or against us.  I've realised that I've always been female & that you can't educate someone into accepting you and you can't be a woman by explaining how you used to have a dick, or how you used to be male, or how you're a male 2 female transsexual.  Society and individuals will regard you as male with an explanation such as that. Simple as that.  Because EVERYONE knows that a male can never turn into a female.  And no one can understand that we've always been female.  I've stopped trying to educate people because they'll never get it & I need to get on with my life & live it before I get too bloody old.

There's an article that speaks for itself:

http://www.tsroadmap.com/sexuality/disclosure.html

the thing is, i really like trans people. i don't think of them as freaks. and if someone says they're trans, i don't mark that as a negative.

i also agree with Tekla, that the heart of the matter is being human, uh, but i would diverge a little at the identity thing, because at some level, i *need* to mark myself as female, as a necessary point of self-recognition.

as for what other people wish to call me, that is up to them. i am not doing this for them.

-ell

[dyssonance]

I don't identify as nothing else but female. Not Ts, Tg or trans, just female.  The epiphany I've had of late is that the language we use to describe ourselves and our situations is either for or against us.  I've realised that I've always been female & that you can't educate someone into accepting you and you can't be a woman by explaining how you used to have a dick, or how you used to be male, or how you're a male 2 female transsexual.  Society and individuals will regard you as male with an explanation such as that. Simple as that.  Because EVERYONE knows that a male can never turn into a female.  And no one can understand that we've always been female.  I've stopped trying to educate people because they'll never get it & I need to get on with my life & live it before I get too bloody old.

There's an article that speaks for itself:

http://www.tsroadmap.com/sexuality/disclosure.html

Fer,

only a couple of points in response to your post.

1 - Most people who are aware of my history do not regard me as a man.  So, to start off with, that assertion is false.

2 - And I always knew that a male could turn into a female.  So that's another one.

Then again, I've always been different -- and usually an exception to the rules.  Which never proves a rule -- it merely means it needs to be looked at more closely.

I never stop trying to educate people, though. Its pretty much the only thing I do these days.  And I can because it makes me happy to do so.

If it doesn't make you happy, then you probably shouldn't do it.

[transheretic]

-- They are kith and kin.

hell, I've even stood up for Ms. Platine, and she and I are sorta mortal enemies.

So, I take it from this statement Ms. (isn't it actually Rev.?) Platine is the ultimate expression of opposition to your viewpoint and all things TG?

[dyssonance]

So, I take it from this statement Ms. (isn't it actually Rev.?) Platine is the ultimate expression of opposition to your viewpoint and all things TG?

Now, now C, that's a leap of conclusion without foundation.

Ultimate?  Nah.  An Expression? yes.  But ya gotta admit we are rather, um, polarized.

(Oh, and Monica and Polar said really nice things about you in DC)

I went through Phoenix Seminary and eight years of teaching in the Rule of Fives myself, so I *could* have,  but that's a title I don't even give myself.

Anyway, hi