The Telltale Heart, Or A Life Of Living Hell

[cindybc]

Hi Chrissty, I believe that Nichole's topic is very much part of what we have been discussing. I just wish for you to know that I would not look down my nose at anyone for whatever reasons. I may not agree with someone's outlook or definition of what transitioning is all about or how they choose to do it, but I am not here to argue such and nitpick over the many different classifications that are based on whatever is involved in transitioning.

I just know from my own personal observation and experience  that GID does not lessen or get better as time passes. As you get older it gets more hellish to cope with. Some have done it, but they weren't happy campers to be sure. I am not aware of anyone who has found a way to defeat GID and remain mentally stable without transitioning.

But then, sis, I am not here to argue the fine points of whether you should transition or not transition. I am here in this group to use what personal knowledge and experience I have and do my best to give support and guidance to those who want it, labels notwithstanding.

Cindy
Post Merge: May 24, 2009, 08:10:21 PM

GID seems to affect those who are 'privileged' is because, despite how grating it can be, it is a high class problem

Hi Interallia
I have no idea how anyone could forget that there are many of us who are living on the streets, looking for a meal, and are in such a predicament because they suffer from GID.  I submit that the only privilege involved is having been born with GID.

If one cannot land or hold a job because they are gender dysphoric, then how can they climb to the next level of Maslow's Hierarchy? 

Until one has earnestly tried to transition on the job, one cannot know the negativity that causes.  People get fired for transitioning.  They are gently forced to leave a job that they have done well for no reason other than they are transitioning to their true gender.  My mate was "shown the door" over a period of two years. 

These conversation boards are filled with anecdotal and actual evidence of TS persons not being able to get a job because of their appearance or over which washroom they would need to use. 

In the last year there was a case brought to court concerning a person who was interviewed by the Library of Congress for a position that required a defined set of skills and a high military clearance.  He got the job and was asked to meet the hiring manager over lunch.  When the otherwise-qualified candidate showed-up at the lunch in feminine attire the job offer was withdrawn.

I suppose that she had the privilege of having a job within her grasp only to find it snatched away by transphobia.  Where is the privilege in that?  How is that  "high-class" problem?

I don't follow the "curative" approach to transsexualism as embraced by Zucker et al.  It just doesn't work.

However, there is another privilege to be recognized here.  Really, it's a basic human right.  That is the right for a person to be who they truly are, both inside and outside.

I lived on the street for nearly ten years, not knowing where my next meal was coming from or if I would have a roof over my head to keep me out of the weather. Even though I didn't know what GID was at the time I certainly had the symptoms, full blown GID. Try and hide that and survive on the street and try to get work and go to school so that I could do something for myself.

I graduated from school with a certificate for social worker and fortunately, a few years later I also had the fortune of transitioning on the job without repercussions. I worked the last ten years of my profession proudly as a social worker as a woman. I am grateful for having had the "privilege" of working as my true self with those who were in need that includes street people.

Cindy

[Just Kate]

I think I was misunderstood, Cindy.  Let me clarify.

One of the original ideas presented in this thread was that those who were transitioning tended to be white, middle to upper middle class males, and reasonably educated.  This is what was referred to as 'privileged'.  I chose to use the word 'priviledged' because it was used earlier.

So what I am saying is that the reason you see more white, middle to upper middle class males, and reasonably educated people transitioning is because they are NOT worried about where their next meal will come from.  Now, if transitioning significantly drops their economic status, then obviously they will need to deal with new priorities and probably will be less focused on purchasing things like hormones, worrying about surgery, etc and more focused on their basic needs.  "High class" referred to the fact that it is not generally a problem that needs to be dealt with until one is in a position one can reasonably achieve it.

[cindybc]

Hi Interalia. I would like to invite you to fly here to Vancouver so I can introduce you the  TS community. I don't believe there is one individual out of the two hundred or so members that come to the support meetings who has any great amount of money, more like hardly enough money to subsist on and still going forward with transitioning.

A good many are black, Latino, Hispanic, Asian, and second generation European Americans, and many more who come here to Canada to transition who are from poorer more socially constrained countries where it would be next to impossible to do it.

Cindy

[Just Kate]

Fact is, and all we generally have to do is look at any webz BB we happen to use a lot and see, that the "phenomenon" of transsexing is a mostly white, middle to upper middle to upper class, professional, reasonably educated, European-heritage phenomenon. We're the ones who generally afford it. We're the ones whose governments often pick up the tab for it.

My experience echoes that of Nichole's.  I realize it isn't like this everywhere, but it would be VERY hard to convince me that this doesn't describe the majority of people who seek transition.

[Mister]

Fact is, and all we generally have to do is look at any webz BB we happen to use a lot and see, that the "phenomenon" of transsexing is a mostly white, middle to upper middle to upper class, professional, reasonably educated, European-heritage phenomenon. We're the ones who generally afford it. We're the ones whose governments often pick up the tab for it.

The demographic you picked out is also the one most likely to have home internet access where one could research topics with social stigma in a private, safe environment.

[tekla]

Well Canada used to cover it, that seems more problematic all the time, but for those who have to do it out of pocket, it sure moves the income requirements up a bit.

[cindybc]

Try Boston, New York, Washington, Atlanta, San Fransisco, Los Angeles, just to name a few from the top of my head that I am familiar with.

In Canada there is here in BC and a good second runner-up is Montreal Quebec followed by Toronto in Ontario. These cities have people of all nations under the TG umbrela.

Cindy

[Mister]

Try Boston, New York, Washington, Atlanta, San Fransisco, Los Angeles, just to name a few from the top of my head that I am familiar with.

In Canada there is here in BC and a good second runner-up is Montreal Quebec followed by Toronto in Ontario. These cities have people of all nations under the TG umbrela.

Cindy

There are also accessible services in Philadelphia, Chicago, Portland, Seattle, LA, Austin...

[cindybc]

Well Canada used to cover it, that seems more problematic all the time, but for those who have to do it out of pocket, it sure moves the income requirements up a bit.

Hi Tekla, you got it mostly correct, BC, Alberta, for now, and Ontario as well, but I am not certain if the other provinces do. Provincial health insurance in most provinces will cover doctors and therapists and hospital stays and will even cover HRT in some places.

Even in those places that don't I have seen persons who were so desperate for estrogen that it is like an addiction to narcotics. They can not function without estrogen in their system. They will get it where ever and how ever and whichever way they can get it.

Cindy

[NicholeW.]

...

... They can not function without estrogen in their system. They will get it where ever and how ever and whichever way they can get it. [/b][/i]

I don't know, but I presume that anyone who does hrt for the purposes of transition and all "post-ops" at one time or another did not have estrogen in their systems and did not have vaginas. I could be wrong about that, but think I'm not.

Since they all managed to live to at least age 18-19 I will presume as well that they were able "to function" at least to the level of feeding, clothing and sheltering (somehow) themselves.

However the thread wasn't meant to take the arguments being furthered in the "non-op" section and to tranfer them here. The OP and further posts I've placed into this thread are about ongoing GID as evidenced by behavior portrayed by the actions and words of some people.

I don't think that the arguments I have been making are "full and complete" by any means. But I think the case for what I am proposing is pretty darned good on its face. What I was hoping to do was to have feedback, diverging opinions, ways in which the ideas I presented were flawed in a way that doesn't just say "you're wrong."

Threads have lives of their own, but as the OP I'd like to see a discussion of what was there. Just sayin'.

The demographic you picked out is also the one most likely to have home internet access where one could research topics with social stigma in a private, safe environment.

I quite agree, Mister, yet another brick in the wall that allows some peeps better and safer access to information and the means to further their treatments without undergoing the social stigma and fear many have no choice but to endure should they choose to transition; provided, of course, that they even know that they can transition.

N~

[cindybc]

Hi Nichole, it may have been just as much desperation brought about by GID as it is needing the estrogen and quite possibly other psychological problems are also involved, but I have seen some who were pretty well bummed out on life.

However I suppose I did wander off topic, my apologies. I believe that this discussion can be a truly helpful topic that should be beneficial for anyone who has lost sight of what transitioning and post transitioning truly means and how to prepare.

Cindy

[NicholeW.]

... the social stigma and fear many have no choice but to endure should they choose to transition; provided, of course, that they even know that they can transition.

Just a bit more on that for a second.  Another aspect of that, Mister, is that it becomes kinda easy for those of us who can afford and maintain access to information, "hidden" forums" etc to come to the point where we cannot imagine that "no one" doesn't know that they can transition.

Again, we are moulded by our own circumstances. It's one thing for us to read about DSM-protests and laws being passed in various countries, cities, states, etc and apply the lacks that some people have in their lives to the realization that vast quantities of people have not been exposed to such information and knowledge.

Blind spots, we all have 'em.

N~

[Mister]

Absolutely.  I don't know how many times I've heard stories about someone identifying with info they find on the web, gender related or not.  Ten years ago, my mother would have probably told you all transsexuals are prostituting men in dresses.  Now, she has harnessed the power of the google and has taught herself otherwise.

[stacyB]

One reason why its so important that forums like this exist... but also why the chasm between those that complete the journey and those on their way needs to be narrowed... if not closed completely. Until a few years ago I had no idea forums like these existed.... hell, I had no idea that I wasnt alone. Imagine how many still feel closeted without the knowledge of options avaiable to them.

I for one am grateful to those who offer the compassion, advice or just plain friendship who have already been throught the wringer and have found their peace.

[tekla]

One of the more amazing things to me is how some situation can end up horrible for some, but great for others.  Take grad school.  For some people its a process of both discovery and skill acquisition, for others its the beginning of a long slide to the bottom.  Same as the military, I know some people who it was the best thing that ever happened to them, it moved them not just out but also up.  Others, well it didn't work out so well.

And, as all people who transition did not arrive at that point in the same way, its not that hard to calculate that they are not going to be on the same end coming out.

I have a friend who in her misspent youth wrote a bit of code that was critical to the development of computer/video games, she has an intellectual property copyright on it and as long as people play video games she's going to get a nice (not huge, but good enough to live on) check for the rest of her life.  It does not take a huge imagination to understand that have a guaranteed $3K a month coming in is going to make your life and transition a bit easier.  She had no kids, and her ex was a very accomplished businesswomen in her own right, so when they split there were no money arguments, no big child custody deal, so that helped too.

To the best of my knowledge her life is not now, nor has it ever been, a living hell.

I have seen others, far too many, who were thinking they were escaping something who came here to SF to find that life here was much worse for them than it was before.  No job, no skills to find one in a competitive market, no money - it sucks.  (GID or no)  When they end up transitioning they still have no skills, no job, and life still sucks - and perhaps for some, who thought it would be the huge change they needed, finding out it wasn't so put them into a deep suicidal depression that ended in the obvious way.  Anyone who has been around the trans community knows of people who killed themselves post-transition.

Obviously life conditions make a huge difference.  They say "Money can not buy happiness."  I'm sure that's true.  However, it damn sure can postpone unhappiness - which often amounts to the same thing.

In here, like a lot of other things and places, people have a common background of knowledge and a vocabulary (bordering on jargon) that they understand that is not common in the rest of the world.  I can assume that anyone without stage training could come to work with me and be instantly confused.  What's a mover, a par, a leko? What a focus, spin the bottle, how do you fuzz or sharp, and what the fark is a ballyhoo?  What's a DAT vs. an XLR cable?  What's edison vs. stage pin?  Hell, our directions are all backwards on a stage - which we don't even call a stage, it's 'the deck', as right is left, up is down and so on.

->-bleeped-<- to the outside world sounds just like that.  And far too often we think others ought to know things that they sooner would rather not know.

[NicholeW.]

I for one am grateful to those who offer the compassion, advice or just plain friendship who have already been throught the wringer and have found their peace.

Which was the precipitating aspect of these posts to begin with, Stacy. How is it that some people can be in places like this after being "surgically complete" and still provide understanding to those who chose to take a different avenue to "completion" and others seem hell-bent on trying to ram down everyone's throat the idea: "this is the way, the truth and the light and no one comes to completion except by the way I did."

At the same time others are desirous of being unknown, but not so afraid of being known that their quality of life is diminished in some fashion by the fear of being known nor by the actual fact of being "outed." Yes, different strokes, but to posit GID and to posit an end to it with surgery completed through SRS seems to me also to pose the problem of "what if srs doesn't end GID?" Like tekla said, that's a trope we have perpetuated that may or may not be valid at all or at least "valid for all." 

Like I said much earlier, being able to go about one's daily life as "just another woman or man" certainly has its advantages, and sometimes has it's awkward moments. Like the one I had at the pool yesterday when an acquaintance opined that "you are just like me. You decided to have your children 7 years apart and I bet your body recuperated really well between your pregnancies."

Yep, it's a good feeling and my response was simply: "yes, the boys are 7 years apart." I don't think it's incumbent to tell all and to out oneself for just any ole reason, nor do I think it's "lying" when anyone doesn't out herself or himself. 

I do think there are some personality ... distortions, anyhow, when "my way or the highway" seems to become one's raison d'etre and the resultant commotion compares favorably to boys in locker rooms comparing penises in middle schools!

No one's avenues "affect" me in regard to how "valid or invalidly" I am a woman. In all of the conversations and interactions I have weekly with so-called GGs (and that is where I have the huge majority of my interactions) I have never, even in the most intimate discussions about the most intimate things, ever experienced a discussion, let alone a heated one, about "who is a real woman and what sort of body configuration one acquires or is born with or without" (breasts removed or without removal, uterine removals, ovarian losses or being born without any or all of those items) becoming a war of who's real and who's not. And yes, in some of those discussions, when I am with people I have revealed my history to, we have talked about those very things. "Being a real woman" never seems to be a starter, even when I have brought it up and desired discussions about it. Usually there comes this vague and wondering expression to the faces and the instant query of "what the hell are you talkin' about?!!"

Having only those experiences within TG forums it strikes me that the Occam's Razor here might well be an ongoing battle with GID regardless of post-op status.

Nichole

[lisagurl]

However, it damn sure can postpone unhappiness

A few lottery winners end up worse off as they also lose their friends.

[tekla]

Postpone, not eliminate - and in that case, its often easy come - easy go. Lots of money is like a Ferrari, if you've been doing nothing your whole life but driving a Pinto, you might get in big trouble real fast.  So when these huge windfalls come on people who have no experience handling, managing, and dealing with large amounts, it's not a surprise that trouble often follows.  Its been said by some that the best thing you can do with a large lottery winning is move far away where no one knows the old you and cut off all previous ties except for the most immediate immediate family.  I'm sure there is some sense in that.

And, long before the lottery, it was pretty common knowledge that unworthy heirs don't keep that money very long.  Hence, trust funds.

[Chrissty]

I'm sorry if my previous post was off-topic Nichole, it was not intentional, but more a case of loosing objectivity due to my emotional state at the time.

Which was the precipitating aspect of these posts to begin with, Stacy. How is it that some people can be in places like this after being "surgically complete" and still provide understanding to those who chose to take a different avenue to "completion" and others seem hell-bent on trying to ram down everyone's throat the idea: "this is the way, the truth and the light and no one comes to completion except by the way I did."

I'm not surprised that this happens, and it is something that is not restricted to transgender issues. It so often comes down to personal insecurity, the folk who have to repeatedly force feed a single viewpoint are so often desperately trying to validate themselves by convincing others to follow. By comparison, the "mentor" types are able to make insightful and unique observations for an individual, because they are able to listen; being both comfortable in who they are, and where they are going with no "axe to grind".

I think it is wonderful that this site attracts so many "mentors", and it is one of the reasons why Susan's is so active and friendly on the whole.

With respect on the other subject, I will continue to hold the view that privilege has nothing to do with GID, as it only affects the ability of the individual to deal with the symptoms. As has been discussed before, there are cultures in this world where those with the symptoms are welcome to live and express themselves as their true gender. Such cultures may be considered relatively "poor" by western societies, but the social interaction is something we should admire.

Yes, we may have access to more funds and procedures, but were do we stop satisfying our condition, and start satisfying only the expectations of our binary society.


Chrissty

[NicholeW.]

The topic may have been veering, but topics do, Chrissty. It seems to be their nature. And I absolutely agree with this:

I'm not surprised that this happens, and it is something that is not restricted to transgender issues. It so often comes down to personal insecurity, the folk who have to repeatedly force feed a single viewpoint are so often desperately trying to validate themselves by convincing others to follow. By comparison, the "mentor" types are able to make insightful and unique observations for an individual, because they are able to listen; being both comfortable in who they are, and where they are going with no "axe to grind".

...

With respect on the other subject, I will continue to hold the view that privilege has nothing to do with GID, as it only affects the ability of the individual to deal with the symptoms.

QFT.

GID is a socio-economic and ethnic and cultural equal opportunity condition. My points in that area are tied to what ten years gender-board experiences have given me to see and participate in myself.