Wealthy non-ops

[Steph]

I don't have much of a edjumacation

I never said that.  I said you were lying or intellectually lazy.  I know plenty of people with lots of degrees who are one or the other, or both.

So just because I said that I don't have an agenda I am either a liar or intellectually lazy.  You may very well know plenty of people, probably more than I would ever hope to know, even those with degrees, butcha don't know me, so keep your personal comments to yourself peanut, and buzz off.

-={LR}=-

[tekla]

I've never met anyone who does not have an agenda, and only those who are REALLY trying to push theirs would even say such a thing.

[Natasha]

supposition = conjecture, hunch, assumption, shot in the dark, suspicion, etc.

&  you think i'm an idiot, right? please!

[cindybc]

Thank you for the information Fae, although your response still leaves a lot to be desired. I guess maybe there is no pat answer or no alpha and omega, just an infinity of shades of grey when it comes to being gender phosphoric.

I am a woman who had a history of GID that I have been relieved of and grateful to see behind me. I am who I am.

And ya got that right, Nichole, 5' 3" 125 lbs  Shortest sighted on this board so far that I am aware of. 

When I left home I had grade five education and worked as a laborer for nearly thirty years of my life, then decided to go back to school to get my certificate in social work and was given an IQ test that showed I was well into the 170 range.  So what does that classify me as, a genius level idiot?

I don't really think transsexualism picks and chooses what level on the hierarchy you are at, anymore than alcohol does as to who is going to be an alcoholic. And alcoholics have proven to be of a high intelligence level as well. Don't worry folks, I'm not picking anyone apart here, I just like to throw around random hypotheses.

One thing I am certain of is that I was not a by chance transsexual. Random maybe, but not by chance

Cindy

[Just Kate]

I certainly don't speak for the non-ops despite identifying as one (and I doubt they would have me speak for them) but the choice to be non-op seems to have less to do with one's skin and more to do with one's comfort level with oneself.  I, for instance, have found a way to be comfortable with just my orchi and my male body despite my GID.  Fae has learned to be comfortable with her orchi and living as female.

Your argument, Cindy, about completing the journey, is highly subjective.  To take your example to the extreme, could not someone say, well you haven't had FFS, therefore you haven't completed the journey, or to use your quote, "I do not understand how you can identify as a woman and still have the wrong parts on your face."  I realize that a vagina is more central to the idea of being a woman than is the removal of some brow bossing, but I hope you see my point.

Each of us has to determine the point at which we are comfortable.  Going beyond that means we are at best wasting time/effort/money or at worst possibly doing it for the wrong reasons.

[cindybc]

Hey, what can I say, there is only so much one can improve upon a 63 year old face. Sure I wish I was ten years old again but I don't think that's going to happen unless someone has a map to the fountain of youth I can borrow.

I am who I am and I am content with what I have achieved in my life. Literally from rags to riches and a loving princes to go with it, which for the likes of me can't figure out why she cares for me as she does. But I ain't complaining at least I have someone to love who loves me back. Twin Flames, we are.

Cindy

[Just Kate]

Hey, what can I say, there is only so much one can improve upon a 63 year old face. Sure I wish I was ten years old again but I don't think that's going to happen unless someone has a map to the fountain of youth I can borrow.

I am who I am and I am content with what I have achieved in my life. Literally from rags to riches and a loving princes to go with it, which for the likes of me can't figure out why she cares for me as she does. But I ain't complaining at least I have someone to love who loves me back. Twin Flames, we are.

Cindy

My wife is everything to me so I understand your comment about having someone to love you back.  I still marvel each day how she puts up with me and my craziness.  

[finewine]

[...]  I realize that a vagina is more central to the idea of being a woman than is the removal of some brow bossing, but I hope you see my point.
[...]

Indeed.  Without intending to be provocative, I can't help but feel that focusing on the vagina as a definition of what it means to be a woman is a very male point of view (ironic given this context).  Based on some conversations I've had with cisgendered females, I'm pretty confident that they would be rather irked to say the least with this vaginocentric argument  and would ferociously assert that being a woman is much more than what's in your knickers. 

Honestly, I find the idea that having a constructed vagina somehow makes someone more of a "real woman" rather silly.  It's a way of affirming a gender identity, or correcting a "birth deformity", or any other number of terms for aligning the apparent physical gender with the very real mental gender.  I applaud and support all who wish to take that step - good for you.  However, the lack of SRS does *not* dissolve that mental gender identity or make it any less real.

After all, it's just a vagina - were I to argue that no amount of physical intervention changes your genetic makeup and hence a post-op could not be a "real" or complete woman, I'd be roundly lambasted - and quite rightly too.

The journey "ends" when your identity is fulfilled - whatever amount of surgery that may or may not entail, surely?

[cindybc]

OK, ask any one of those cisgendered female friends if they would still feel complete as women if they had ovarian cancer and had to have most of their working parts removed. Or how about breast cancer? Or ask them how they would feel if they were to wake up in the morning and look in the mirror and see a man's body on the outside.

I would sooner die than to lose anyone of those parts or to go back to what I was before. I love who I am, I am as complete physically as I can be, I may still have a lot of learning inwardly to understand the innerself. But that is OK, like an adventure, something new around every turn on my journey as my true self.

Cindy

[finewine]

OK, ask any one of those cisgendered female friends if they would still feel complete as women if they had ovarian cancer and had to have most of their working parts removed. Or how about breast cancer? Or ask them how they would feel if they were to wake up in the morning and look in the mirror and see a man's body on the outside.

My ex-gf in China, with whom I am still very close, is in hospital right now with cervical cancer and I can assure you that while she acutely mourns the loss of her child bearing ability, she has never once suggested that her gender identity as a female has been undermined.  Besides, I'm not for a moment suggesting that there aren't good reasons why someone with gender dysphoria would want SRS.  I'm simply pointing out that we can't make arbitrary definitions of womanhood based on what degree of surgical manipulation one has had.

I would sooner die than to lose anyone of those parts or to go back to what I was before. I love who I am, I am as complete physically as I can be, I may still have a lot of learning inwardly to understand the innerself. But that is OK, like an adventure, something new around every turn on my journey as my true self.

Cindy [/b][/i]

And I genuinely support and admire you for that.  I intend no criticism whatsoever, nor are my comments directed at any individual.  I simpy mean to argue strenuously against the assertion that a non-op or pre-op is "incomplete" by default.  Only the individual can decide for themself what constitutes complete - or as interalia says, sufficiently comfortable with oneself.

-J

[cindybc]

Yes, what ever floats one's boat, I guess we all have our own comfort zone. I suppose once we find what floats out boat we darn well better be grateful to what ever higher power we believe in and pray that someone doesn't drop the anchor through the bottom of the boat. "I left the darn bailing can on the dock!!!"  Just a little humor.

Cindy

[TamTam]

OK, ask any one of those cisgendered female friends if they would still feel complete as women if they had ovarian cancer and had to have most of their working parts removed. Or how about breast cancer?

I would have to respectfully disagree with this, as well.  As I feel many breast cancer survivors would.  Of course, many of them who have had to have mastectomies elect to have their breasts rebuilt because they feel very self conscious and incomplete without them.  However, there are many others who feel okay about it, and see it as a sign of their fight, a badge of pride.  They would probably be deeply offended if anyone told them they were incomplete as women.  Walk up to a breast cancer survivor and tell her, "you're missing a breast, therefore you are less of a woman."  See what kind of fury will occur.

As for ovarian cancer, well.. as a woman who has no real plans to ever have children, I honestly don't think it would bug me very much, if it wasn't for the obvious health issue.  I mean, 'being complete as a woman' would be the absolute last thing on my mind.  Since I never interact with my ovaries besides an annoyance once a month, I don't imbue them with a part of who I consider myself to be.

I agree with finewine that no woman should be defined by what she has in her pants, just as no man should be defined by what he has in his.  That's just.. missing the point, in my opinion.

[cindybc]

I am not in disagreement with what you say Tam Tam, although I thank my maker every morning for all of my working parts of my body are still all working, as well as any of those that define me as a woman.

I had a lady friend who lost both breasts to cancer and so I do know what that can do to a person, and I shall leave it at that. Goodness, judging one by what they have in their pants? Yea I have met a few people like that, and they didn't strike me as very intelligent or caring people.

Intelligence and wisdom is what dwells between the ears and the heart. I do not get upset if someone answers with a little annoyance or irritation especially when dealing with such topics as we have here. But then how can one learn unless they ask questions.

I consider myself intelligent but all the intelligence in the world doesn't mean that one knows the answers to everything. Goodness if I could do that everyone here would be going home with an answer to all their dilemmas. Wish I could, but not.

I only ask questions because I wish to learn, and I do my best that they do not come out sounding to impertinent.

Cindy

[Steph]

I've never met anyone who does not have an agenda, and only those who are REALLY trying to push theirs would even say such a thing.

Well guess what peanut I'm someone that you've never met who doesn't have an agenda who is REALLY not trying to push one.  Geeze.

Sorry I don't conform.

-={LR}=-

[tekla]

Please, your agenda is so obvious you might as well light it in neon.

You don't have any values?  No personal experiences that come to bear on what you think and advocate?  No morals or ethics that would dictate which course of action would be more appropriate?  You don't think that one way is better than the other?  You don't believe in anything?  You just have pure truth as in Veritas?  Sure.

[fae_reborn]

Thank you for the information Fae, although your response still leaves a lot to be desired. I guess maybe there is no pat answer or no alpha and omega, just an infinity of shades of grey when it comes to being gender phosphoric.

That was basically the jist of my argument Cindy.  How does my response leave more to be desired?  I believe I more or less covered how I (and perhaps other non-ops, though I can't speak for them) feel in regard to this argument, which seems to happen fairly regularly every month.  Why we continue to have these debates, I'll never know.

I am a woman who had a history of GID that I have been relieved of and grateful to see behind me. I am who I am.

As I am also.  We are the same despite having taken different paths in this life in dealing with our GID.  So we may not always understand the journeys of others...does that mean we may question their journey?  Absolutely not!

I don't really think transsexualism picks and chooses what level on the hierarchy you are at...

As a feminist and a free-thinking, educated person, I reject all notions of any kind of hierarchy.  With regards to GID and this discussion, there is no hierarchy of any kind.  Are you suggesting that just because I am non-op by choice, and you are post-op by choice, that you and others who are post-op are somehow better off or somehow hold a "higher" position within the community than those like me who are non-op?  Because that doesn't make any sense, and such thinking only serves to undermine the struggle for acceptance and equality among society that this community strives for.

[cindybc]

No hon no one is better then anyone else. What's the difference between the town mayor and Billy the bum out there next to the hot dog vending machine with his hat out for enough change to buy a hot dog. They are both human, Ah, one might say that the mayor commands a place of power, has a better education and has more money.

What no one knows is that Billy the bum use to t be a philosophy professor down on his luck, and finding his freedom there to spend more time in his own world, in his mind, he can write and compose his philosophies anytime and wherever he wants. On the other hand the mayor is restricted as to what he can do and can only command through a comity. Billy answers to no one. I knew such a sole in real life, I try to live  that way.

No hun, your no better then me and I ain't better then you or anyone else on this board. I was sincere when I said I only wished to learn how other undertake their journeys.

I guess maybe there is no pat answer or no alpha and omega, just an infinity of shades of grey when it comes to being gender dysphoric

I had hoped that was part of your answer.

Thank you. I am only the student on threads such as these.

Sincerely
Cindy

[Steph]

Please, your agenda is so obvious you might as well light it in neon.

You don't have any values?  No personal experiences that come to bear on what you think and advocate?  No morals or ethics that would dictate which course of action would be more appropriate?  You don't think that one way is better than the other?  You don't believe in anything?  You just have pure truth as in Veritas?  Sure.

Well peanut, my lights must have burnt out.

Yes I have values, but they're not listed in any agenda; I have personal experiences and I keep track of them in a blog; I have morals and ethics and I do my best to live by them; I believe in much, but those things are for me alone; and as far as pure truth is concerned I'm simply true to myself and my man.

No agenda, just me.

-={LR}=-

[fae_reborn]

I guess maybe there is no pat answer or no alpha and omega, just an infinity of shades of grey when it comes to being gender dysphoric

I had hoped that was part of your answer.

Essentially, yes, that was what I was getting at, that there are different positions, or "shades" as you put it, along the gender spectrum.  I'm at one point, and I'm happy there.  You're at another, and are happy there.  To each individual finding their own personal happiness and where they fit within this community and within the greater society as a whole, that is the essence of our situation.

Why we continue to have debates about GRS and who gets the procedure and who doesn't, and who is really TS/TG, instead of keeping in mind the different "shades" and maintaining an atmosphere of respect for each others struggles,  I don't know.

[Virginia87106]

Hi Pheonix
I am not meaning to be condescending but I do wish to ask an honest question.

I do not understand how you can identify as a woman and still have the wrong parts down there. If you have gone as far as you have, to the point of no return, why would you not want to complete the journey as congruently as medical science can make you. There are many like you here and I just wish to understand is all.

If I am to be supportive of others on this board I only seek to understand the reasoning behind this.

Cindy 

Hi Cindy-  I will take a stab at your question, and thank you for offering it in a very sensitive and warm way.
I have been on estrogen for 12 years, I have had a trachal shave, breast implants, extensive FFS, and have been living full time as a woman for 8 years.  I have a passport with the F, annd SS also has me as an "F". 
When I had my breast implants, I looked at my body, and saw my new breasts and the penis that remained, and all of a sudden I realized that I did not want SRS.  I was completely satisfied with the wonder I discovered as I looked at my body with breasts and a penis.  I looked totally beautiful.

Also, I have always had very good sexual response.  Yes, the estrogen has changed my sexuality a good bit over the years, but I still maintain sexual function and enjoy the performance of the "parts.

So for me, I am a woman with a penis, I am just that lucky.  99% of health care professionals and others who have seen my body have been completely respectful.  I have not felt dissed because of my body.  Part of the reason is probably because I am very comfortable with myself and my body and expect others to also be comfortable.

I hope this helps a bit but please feel free to ask questions as they arise.