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So I was thinking-is it because of American culture we transition?

Started by antarcticsake, June 11, 2009, 02:55:15 AM

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antarcticsake

Hello to all!

I've only posted like two things on this site, but I wanted to bring up an interesting thought.
I've been watching a lot of cultural shows lately, and researching about gender expression abroad, not just in America.

And what I've come to realize, at least so far, is that America is a very conservative/traditional country, and split very far in terms of gender expression--at least it's easier for women than men, whereas in a country like Thailand, gender expression is much easier, and the culture (also judging from what my friends that have visited told me) is much more accepting and less judgmental, so that one can permanently dress like that and face a lot less discrimination (maybe not nothing, but much less.)

So my question is (sorry this is taking so darn long!!)...given the chance to live abroad in a place that would accept you, would you choose to still transition or just live the way you would live anyways sans hormones and surgeries?  Or is it really a deeper issue? (even though maybe the harshness of America makes it seem like it's so much deeper when maybe it's the people around us that need to adapt to our needs too, not just theirs.)

I'm asking this question because I'm also trying to figure out myself, and trying to keep an open mind to every single possibility out there, not just transitioning.  Thank you :D
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finewine

Gender dysphoric people go through the transition to resolve the incongruity between their mental and anatomical gender.  Social acceptance is certainly broader in some countries but that doesn't dilute the desire to transition, it just makes it a little easier to go through the process.

After all, plenty of people do transition in those other countries :)
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Nero

what Finewine said (great answer Finewine).

Well, women are allowed to dress however here, so obviously as an ftm, I'm not transitioning for gender expression. This is really about me, and not about anyone else. This is about me, my body, and my identity.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Princess Katrina

I've thought about that, myself. I used to think I'd be satisfied if I'd just be allowed to wear whatever I want, dresses, skirts, the like. Even talked with one of my girlfriends years ago who I was contemplating marriage with about reversing things at our wedding. Her wearing the suit and me wearing the wedding dress. She actually wasn't opposed to the idea, being very much a tomboy and not liking dresses.

I later realized that it wasn't just the outfits I want. That's icing on the cake. I needed the cake, the physical transformation into being actually female, into being actually myself.
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Miniar

That "would" be a viable theory, if people outside of american culture didn't feel the need to transition as well. ;)
I'm Icelandic, I can wear whatever I want, be whoever I want, and I still want to transition.



"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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Kaelin

Sure, Thailand is more neutral towards gender expression, but that hasn't stopped them from performing countless SRS operations themselves, has it?

The replies contributed point out that acceptance and openness can make the transition easier, which in turn helps people figure out if what they want is the identity or (some of) the expression.  Just as it can help people determine when their needs are identity-related, acceptance can also help people figure out if their feelings are of a different nature -- one can experiment with as much gender-incongruent behavior as one likes (or at least relatively easily) and can more readily identify if that is in fact all they need, all while finding greater acceptance for said behavior.  Gender equality (not "separate but equal") makes this determination a lot easier.
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GinaDouglas

It certainly is true that US and Western culture allows us the luxury to transition.  If we were starving and searching for food on a daily basis, then gender issues wouldn't matter so much.  It's partially a hierarchy of needs issue.
It's easier to change your sex and gender in Iran, than it is in the United States.  Way easier.

Please read my novel, Dragonfly and the Pack of Three, available on Amazon - and encourage your local library to buy it too! We need realistic portrayals of trans people in literature, for all our sakes
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K8

Quote from: Princess Katrina on June 11, 2009, 06:13:36 AM
I've thought about that, myself. I used to think I'd be satisfied if I'd just be allowed to wear whatever I want, dresses, skirts, the like. Even talked with one of my girlfriends years ago who I was contemplating marriage with about reversing things at our wedding. Her wearing the suit and me wearing the wedding dress. She actually wasn't opposed to the idea, being very much a tomboy and not liking dresses.

I later realized that it wasn't just the outfits I want. That's icing on the cake. I needed the cake, the physical transformation into being actually female, into being actually myself.

Antarticsake, I thought it was just a cultural issue for quite a while.  When I thought I just wanted the freedom to dress as I please and wave my hands around when I talk and all of that, I was trying to shoehorn 'me' into the culture without having to change too much.  I was afraid I would never be able to be a woman and so convinced myself that it wasn't important as long as I could dress like one sometimes. 

But finally I came to terms with my GID and began the transition.  It was then that I realized I NEED ALL OF IT - to dress as a woman, to live as a woman, to interact with others as a woman, to have a vagina, maybe someday to even love as a woman.  In other words, to be - as much as possible - a woman.  Nothing less will do at this point.

To me, the proof of this has been that as I got closer to being Katherine and have gradually become ever more Kate, I have become happier and happier.  This is what I have needed all my life, regardless of the culture.

- Kate
Life is a pilgrimage.
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fae_reborn

Cultural (outside) acceptance or "openness" has nothing to do with the personal (inside) need for us to transition.  Sure, if the culture or outside environment were more accepting it would be easier, but not quite enough.  I think that for many of us (and I'm generalizing here) living without transition, i.e. "sans hormones and surgeries" as you put it, is not a life worth living.  GID is a painful internal issue and cannot be easily resolved with just cultural acceptance.
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PinkSunshine

Quote from: Fae on June 11, 2009, 07:55:23 PM
Cultural (outside) acceptance or "openness" has nothing to do with the personal (inside) need for us to transition.  Sure, if the culture or outside environment were more accepting it would be easier, but not quite enough.  I think that for many of us (and I'm generalizing here) living without transition, i.e. "sans hormones and surgeries" as you put it, is not a life worth living.  GID is a painful internal issue and cannot be easily resolved with just cultural acceptance.

Thanks dear, couldn't said that better myself!  :eusa_clap: Being pre-surgery, HRT, and even therapy (I'm working on it   :icon_sad:), I meet nice people everywhere! I've only gotten a few rude comments in the entire year since I was first honest with myself. I don't feel threatened  going out (not even at night), but that isn't enough. Culturely speaking, I'm pretty well accepted, but I can't live with that. I need more! (lol no its not an addiciton, I just want to be myself  ;)). I'll never be completely happy until I go all the way!
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antarcticsake

Thanks for all the responses so far!

I can agree with all of you that it's probably a much deeper-rooted issue.  I think my mom doesn't want me to get hurt and is trying to give me a short-term solution...although maybe this is my solution. they say everybody is different! Lol.

we shall see.

And by the way...did you ever flip flop (feel strongly towards transitioningk, then feel a little confused/in denial) until finally you just had to deal with yourself, so to speak?
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fae_reborn

Quote from: VanessaPink on June 11, 2009, 08:05:57 PM
Thanks dear, couldn't said that better myself!  :eusa_clap: Being pre-surgery, HRT, and even therapy (I'm working on it   :icon_sad:), I meet nice people everywhere! I've only gotten a few rude comments in the entire year since I was first honest with myself. I don't feel threatened  going out (not even at night), but that isn't enough. Culturely speaking, I'm pretty well accepted, but I can't live with that. I need more! (lol no its not an addiciton, I just want to be myself  ;)). I'll never be completely happy until I go all the way!

Your welcome Vanessa, and you'll get there.  It takes time, but eventually you'll reach your goals.  It's good that you're making strides in the right direction to be yourself; it took me a suicide attempt before I was honest with myself and seeked the help of a therapist.  GID is a horrible thing to go through, I wouldn't wish it upon anyone.

BTW, love that outfit, you look great.  Once you grow out your hair, you'll be a knockout!  ;)

Quote from: antarcticsake on June 11, 2009, 09:19:22 PM
I think my mom doesn't want me to get hurt and is trying to give me a short-term solution...although maybe this is my solution. they say everybody is different! Lol.

we shall see.

And by the way...did you ever flip flop (feel strongly towards transitioning, then feel a little confused/in denial) until finally you just had to deal with yourself, so to speak?

Your mother probably just wants the best for you.  Mine is still dealing with it, it takes a long time for some parents to come around.

As for 'flip flopping' I would say a more correct term (for me) was doubt.  Sometimes it happens, but if you ask yourself "is this right for me?" or "do I want to be a girl/boy?" and the answer is a resounding "YES" and you know in your heart and soul that transition is the right path, then that doubt or 'flip-flopping' is normal.
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xsocialworker

How to one explain the desire for Iranian and Saudi men to transition to female? They must be seeking something other than the freedom to expand their clothing choices. I'm serious here. Why would a man living in Iran desire the restrictions placed on women?

It could be because male homosexual acts can be punished by death and state sponsored transitioning is safer? Just comparing the United States to Thailand or Iceland is really unfair.

Sure our country can be stupidly conservative . We have all heard the frothings of: Bush/Cheney/Rove/Newt/Rush/Palin/Steele/Boehner/Hannity/Glenn Beck/O'Reilly/etc---------but compared to the Middle East? Our police don't beat up Gay Pride marchers as current policy in Russia.

  Thoughts?
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Nero

QuoteWhy would a man living in Iran desire the restrictions placed on women?

good point, socialworker.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Alyssa M.

Cross-gender identity and expression is as old as humanity. In different societies, it has had different implications. I can't credibly speculate on how my life would have been in a different culture, and it's hard for me to believe the speculation of others. Sure, I have always thought that the bits didn't match, but if I had never been forced to live as a boy, if I had known from the day I became aware of gender that I could live in the gender that felt right rather than the one everyone else assumed was right -- would I have cared all that much? I just don't know.

Conversely, imagine a time years hence after the development of some stem-cell based therapy that can give you the bits that match your gender -- fully functional, no dilation needed, none of the compromises the guys have to make. Those privileged ones who could pull it off might very well wonder how life was worth living back in the "bad old days" of 2009 given the limited options. What looks like an impossible burden sometimes looks that way because you never expected you would have to carry it.

So, to answer the question -- yes, I absolutely think that western culture (the one that dominates the world, led by America and Europe), or whatever culture you grow up in, strongly influences how you respond to your gender mismatch, and the way we transition is a response specifically to the the cultural environment in which that mismatch becomes the major problem that it is, that we call GID.

Post Merge: June 12, 2009, 01:58:12 AM

I think trans women in Iraq (I don't want to say "transsexual" or "transgendered" because those are so specifically Western constructs) prove my point: given the risks they take to live as women, can anyone deny that their dysphoria is milder? And yet, many seem to think life is worth living -- because they keep on living it -- despite no chance that they'll ever be able to get SRS.
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another.

   - Anatole France
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K8

Quote from: antarcticsake on June 11, 2009, 09:19:22 PM
And by the way...did you ever flip flop (feel strongly towards transitioningk, then feel a little confused/in denial) until finally you just had to deal with yourself, so to speak?

I had doubts much of my life whether I should transition.  That's one reason I waited as long as I did.  When it became obvious that I should, I had doubts whether I could transition.  Once I started, all the should doubts were long gone and the could doubts were gradually resolved.  Now I know this is something I should and must do.

It's a personal journey with lots of help from those around us - family and friends - including those here at Susan's.

- Kate
Life is a pilgrimage.
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xsocialworker

Women in Iran usually wear pants to be out on the street. The older more rural women still wear chadors. Men in Saudi Arabia usually wear a robe without any pants . The type of dress -like garment depends on class. So if a guy goes to Saudiland, he can get a dress. Anthony Bourdain wore one in his show on the Travel Channel. Women in Iran must be covered completely and pants and jeans do pass the state issued dress code. It was 100 degrees in Tehran for election day and all the women on camera were wearing pants and coats. What fun.
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antarcticsake

I know this is a little off topic, but...
Just last night actually I was watching a show on Iran! lol.  And they said they view homosexuality as more of a bad thing than being a transsexual because they think if you transition it gets rid of (what they view as) a mistake that isn't natural.  Which is weird, however, in such a country that's so restrictive. 
But they have to get government permission if they get SRS.  I just thought that was interesting, no?
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