And the most liberal city and most conservative city

[Michelle.]

http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/143945

Nokia has devised a way to power a cell phone for "free."
A modern day app from an idea of Tesla.

[NicholeW.]

http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/143945

Nokia has devised a way to power a cell phone for "free."
A modern day app from an idea of Tesla.

OK, one idea from the mind of Tesla that has received a new life thanks to Nokia. But that's a long way from T. Boone and windmills and gas taxes. So is desalinization, heavy on the process end and light on the profit end.

The idea of Fed research grants and paid labor building this infrastructure that is necessary to the entire culture and then "auctioning" it away is simply laughable. Like the "winning" auction bid will go to Mobil, Exxon, Royal Dutch Shell, or BP, etc at some less-than costs price.

A grid to power the entire country and communications technology will then enter "private and eternal" corporate ownership. And whatya suppose you'll pay to use whatever the benefit from it is?

You expressed some dismay at "corporate fascism" earlier. Where do you imagine all of that will lead?

I understand that ideology can get in the way of lots of things, but this line of reasoning is pretty surface level and doesn't require a lot of thought to ferret out.

I'd rather see the government run the whole dammed shebang than hide and watch the multi-national power companies do so.

Hate goverment all ya want and chat on about bureaucracies and inefficiency all ya want as well. In fact, the government bureaucracies of the 1930s and 40s worked a sight better than the capitalist-powers-that-had-been who were all pretty busy buying into national socialism and the Krupp, Bayer, Farben and Siemen's connections they saw as "the future."

Now, why should anyone think that the successors of such "leading lights" have seen the errors of their ways? They've certainly only shown a decided capacity for greed unparallelled and a "damn everyone else" approach to pretty much everything.

But, as many have said USA is incredibly naive historically. We like to think everything is new and that the past doesn't affect us or make anything we desire unlikely.

A world, for instance, where water is more scarce and less clean than it has ever been and "leading lights" are suggesting that we can still support 12-15 billion people on a planet that doesn't seem able at the moment to support 6-7 billion without more than about 85% of the population living on the margins at best, dying consistently at worst.

The day has come and gone, I believe, when 3% of the world's population can collectively consume around 25% of that world's resources daily.

But, dreams that are called "rational" seem to have a tough time dying in those who would like nothing better than an endless summer of profligate consumption. Just sayin' an' all.

Nichole

[Michelle.]

endless summer of profligate consumption

We will find a way to have our cake and eat it to.
Additionally I don't see why we can't over time bake a larger cake, so that the rest of the world can partake as well.

RE: the need for a next generation power grid. There are some projects that are so large. Time, labor, geographical size, cost, etc that only the government can coordinate and finance the project. Bringing the US power grid into the 21st century is one of those projects.

Much like the interstates were in the 20th century. And railroads, combo private/gov, in the 19th century.

Theres a good pilot program going on here in South Florida. FAU is doing reseach into putting turbines on the ocean floor. It's beyond tidal. The idea is to harvest the generation potential of the gulfstream curents themselves.
If this idea/system works, the whole eastern seaboard could be powered, by a 100% renewable source of power.

[NicholeW.]

Any notions at all about what all that turbine-action would do to the sea-floor and just how much effect such a project would have on the web of sealife and environment?

Yep, I agree, just like interstates, and last I checked interstates hadn't been sold to trucking companies or Walt Disney Studios.

The railroads were not particularly private/government they were more on the order of private-government. I mean, heck, the first Pub president was a very high-paid railroad lawyer! A very under-reported fact.

I haven't much of a problem with technological progress. I do have a problem with having to re-do the "progress" made technologically from other generations in order that fewer people will die or live in a world without air. Of course, that prolly qualifies me as a Luddite. 

And I agree that if one would bring some of those tech resources and projects elsewhere perhaps standards of living would be increased. Buckminster Fuller was suggesting that was possible decades ago. That idea wasn't made at Citicorp, in fact, Citicorp prolly hasn't yet realized it's possibility.

But, to make such things work Fuller licensed his own patents for free to anyone who'd use them. Not so many takers. I somehow doubt that DuPont, Westinghouse, Siemen's, etc are going to go for that idea.

It's nice ideas, Michelle, but as is so often true no one takes anything remotely that could be considered "the long view." People invent and patent and send out the products, often with no regard to the ramifications. Like that ocean-floor generating scheme perhaps?

N~ 

[lisagurl]

If this idea/system works, the whole eastern seaboard could be powered, by a 100% renewable source of power.

The energy moving the current would be taken away and the current would slow. The worlds weather is controlled by ocean currents. What do you think the result would be. Nothing is free and without consequences. I can only imagine what other problems there would be such as maintenance and environment changes. How about all those tires FL dumped in the ocean to make a reef. They are now trying to figure how to get them out.

Every time something new is tried we find many more problems.
Post Merge: June 16, 2009, 08:11:55 PM

Yep, I agree, just like interstates, and last I checked interstates hadn't been sold to trucking companies or Walt Disney Studios.

The interstates were designed after WWII as Germany used the system for the war machine. They changed the fabric of America and not all good. Trains are much more energy efficient than trucks. Tell some of the small towns that turned into ghost towns after the roads passed them by.  The bigger roads increased traffic and pollution it is a losing battle the more lanes they add the more cars fill it up and the more further people commute to work. In CA some people spend 4 hours a day in their car. Progress?

[tekla]

First things first.

Liberal and conservative are words that say unlike 'strawberry ice cream" tend to mean radically different things to different people, and they mean different things in a generational context, and they mean very different things in say Massachusetts and California then in Texas and Utah.  So, how you rate places according to such a guide is problematic.  And any survey that has Detroit coming out on top of any list other than "most important City to have yo ass out of before the sun goes down" should be checked as something is very wrong.  Detroit is about the most f-ed up places in the USA.  It looks like a war happened.  And one did.  It has huge crime rates, no opportunity and crappy weather.  How did it wind up being on top, unless its a survey of welefare payments and offices.  And People's Park is the least liberal deal in Berkeley, its just bums/hippies/beggars and the like.  If you want to meet the liberal part of Berkeley try the faculty and students.

As for all the energy stuff.  Do you understand what Newton said in the Laws of Motion?  What the Laws of Thermodynamics are?  Do you really get it?  I don't think you do.  There is no 'something for nothing' in the universe.  Energy is not unlimited, heat is not unlimited, it just moves around, in moving around you can do some things with it, but it takes energy to move it around see, and in the end the you to put in the energy required to get enough output.  The best you can do in a physics sense is break even.

No amount of 'new technology' is going to be able to replace the gasoline powered world, and the infrastructure built up to promote and sustain it - the sprawling suburbs engaged in massive material accumulation while using massive amounts of power to do it.  It's a pipe dream at best that somehow some other way cheep and easy to use solution, one that won't be too hard on the earth too of course, is bound to appear just in the nick of time.

Prudent people would be planning for the future, one where energy is a lot more expensive and might have to 'gasp' actually do real work again.

[DarkLady]

First things first.

Liberal and conservative are words that say unlike 'strawberry ice cream" tend to mean radically different things to different people, and they mean different things in a generational context, and they mean very different things in say Massachusetts and California then in Texas and Utah.  So, how you rate places according to such a guide is problematic.  And any survey that has Detroit coming out on top of any list other than "most important City to have yo ass out of before the sun goes down" should be checked as something is very wrong.  Detroit is about the most f-ed up places in the USA.  It looks like a war happened.  And one did.  It has huge crime rates, no opportunity and crappy weather.  How did it wind up being on top, unless its a survey of welefare payments and offices.  And People's Park is the least liberal deal in Berkeley, its just bums/hippies/beggars and the like.  If you want to meet the liberal part of Berkeley try the faculty and students.

As for all the energy stuff.  Do you understand what Newton said in the Laws of Motion?  What the Laws of Thermodynamics are?  Do you really get it?  I don't think you do.  There is no 'something for nothing' in the universe.  Energy is not unlimited, heat is not unlimited, it just moves around, in moving around you can do some things with it, but it takes energy to move it around see, and in the end the you to put in the energy required to get enough output.  The best you can do in a physics sense is break even.

No amount of 'new technology' is going to be able to replace the gasoline powered world, and the infrastructure built up to promote and sustain it - the sprawling suburbs engaged in massive material accumulation while using massive amounts of power to do it.  It's a pipe dream at best that somehow some other way cheep and easy to use solution, one that won't be too hard on the earth too of course, is bound to appear just in the nick of time.

Prudent people would be planning for the future, one where energy is a lot more expensive and might have to 'gasp' actually do real work again.

The study was done solely based on voting statistics.

[tekla]

Voting for who, for what?  If its the last national election I say that Detroit wins because it's like 80% African-American and voted for Obama that way, not because they were way liberal and voted for the liberal.

[NicholeW.]

Voting for who, for what?  If its the last national election I say that Detroit wins because it's like 80% African-American and voted for Obama that way, not because they were way liberal and voted for the liberal.

Agreed in large part.

Try walking through Detroit as visibly transsexual or crossdressed and see how "liberal" it is.

Butcha gotta understand this "through a Finnish mirror darkly" stuff goin' on with Dark Lady. High need for a steep learning curve and an almost impossible ability to get the notion that "conservatives" would have voted for Obama and no notion of the racial aspects of the last election.

I think she prolly has no conception of the fact that to be Pub maybe be to also be considered a "liberal" Pub and that lots of Dems are less "liberal" than some Pubs. I think there's an understandable misunderstanding of our confusing "two-party system" goin' on here.

Right, Dark Lady?

[lisagurl]

Try walking through Detroit as visibly transsexual or crossdressed and see how "liberal" it is. 

The last time I flew into Detroit the rental car company had a sign warning to look out for bricks thrown from the over passes.

[tekla]

Try walking through Detroit as visibly ...
Oh pick one: white guy, white girl, non gang member, wearing the wrong colors in the right neighborhood, oh we could go on.

This is very pretty though, in a rather creepy way.

http://56minus1.com/2009/04/abandoned-detroit/
(remember, some of these homes can be had for as little as $1.

http://www.forgottendetroit.com/

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=Yc6&ei=lZU5SretN4_IsQPLpJn-Bg&resnum=0&q=photos+abandoned+detroit&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=l5U5Sq-YJYK2sgOFyoD-Bg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title

[DarkLady]

Actully the study was made before the presidential election 2008.

[Alyssa M.]

Speramus meliora; resurget cineribus ...

[tekla]

Somehow I don't quite see Detroit as the New Phoenix, but hope springs eternal.

[Miniar]

what was the study called?, who conducted it?

[DarkLady]

The Bay Area Center for Voting Research (2005-08-11). "The Most Conservative and Liberal Cities in the United States"

[lisagurl]

http://www.hallnj.org/  The Hall Institute of Public Policy,  funds The Bay Area Center for Voting Research

Since its inception in 2005, the institute has emerged as a leading voice for public policy in New Jersey. More than 200 papers have been posted on our website, along with special features such as a Property Tax Forum, an online Virtual Debate between New Jersey's candidates for U.S. Senate, and the contents of our 295-page hardcover book The State of the Garden State.

Basically it a measure of black population.

[Michelle.]

The link.   http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1464256/posts   to DL's list/article.

Tekla, yes I am well aware of the Laws of Thermodynamics and the Conservation of Energy. If anyone were to end up on my doorstep trying to sell me a perpeptual motion machine their nose would receive my front door.

I was trying to point out that theres tech in development that can help alleviate the CO2 release problem.

BTW... those pics of Detriot made me cry.... so sad.

This whole thread reminds me of that old Chinese proverb/curse, "may you live in interesting times."

Oh, Nichole... regarding "public use patents." Where using one right now. The World Wide Web was developed by a CERN scientist and given away for free... circa early 1990's?

[NicholeW.]

Oh, Nichole... regarding "public use patents." Where using one right now. The World Wide Web was developed by a CERN scientist and given away for free... circa early 1990's?

Yep, we are, 'Chelle. But our houses are still square or rectangular for the most part. Darn those geodesic domes just didn't manage to be used regardless their efficiency and sense, eh?

Maybe if they'd have been made entertainment of some sort ...?  

[Michelle.]

Nich'... funny, you crack me up sometimes. thanks I needed the laugh.

Entertainment?  Imagine the "Jolly Green Giant" and his family using our new geodesic dome homes as soccer balls!!!