Discussing the “transgender dilemma”

[tekla]

Hey if I want to go after people in a specific example I do what Socrates taught me and let them do it themselves.  Much better to let people hang themselves with their own words then have to manufacture the rope myself.  Much too lazy for that.

And Nichole is right in at least one way, I thought I was cutting it very mild as by my vision in all of this is a bunch of people who have 'rights' that others fought for, and far from even giving them a passing acknowledgment, they get vindictive treatment for their efforts.

I mean, its a unique short sightedness that produces this, and it begins (and pretty much ends) with the 'this is not about sex.'   Sure.  Of course not.  It's about gender, and sex is between the legs, while gender is between the ears, and for that reason we have to go to head doctors before we get the plumbing fixed, but no, its not about sex at all is it?  But ya know, you don't have to read many posts in here to find the sex component do you?  But hey, its not about sex.  Right.

What it is about, and Nichole touched on it a bit here, so I'll quote her: And we haven't even gotten to drag-queens, genderqueers, androgynes (of all the many diverse shades.)   And I think that is exactly what many people would want, they want the Transgender movement to be exclusively a Transsexual movement, and they don't like the LGBT crowd because they embrace the diversity, rather than trying to expel it.  At the heart of the entire separatism argument is the need to get rid of all who do not match the expectations, or who make a different argument, and leave it exclusively to those who promote a very narrow agenda.

But, I do kind of like it when someone says It is absolutely true that i am not a "movement" expert, partly because I wasn't out or planning to be, and partly because I'm not a "movement" person and then proceeds to add a huge "HOWEVER" and goes on from there to critique the movement.

And I was only using the political parties as examples of how inclusive tends to win, and exclusive tends to lose, no matter who uses it.   

[NicholeW.]

Wow!! I merited TWO nods in my post, Kat? Thank you.

[tekla]

When you're right, you're right.

But I did kinda like the This may be more bluntness than I've seen on this whole board so far condensed into a single post.

I guess she has not perused my other posts eh?

[Tammy Hope]

With almost 9,000 to go, it's safe to say I'm behind on THAT task.

(not criticizing, I have over 20K on another board!)

All I can say in summation is "Meh"

My thinking was another point of view would be maybe of some value.

But the tone seems to be like it is at every other site on the net I've ever seen, to wit:

"I'm right. End of discussion."

So...ok...you're right.

I curtsy in your general direction.



I'm not going to give into the argumentative nature I'm trying to suppress.

[NicholeW.]

When you're right, you're right.

But I did kinda like the This may be more bluntness than I've seen on this whole board so far condensed into a single post.

I guess she has not perused my other posts eh?

Yeah, I liked that too. After practically 9,000 posts I would imagine that there are over two hundred of your posts that at least match that one for bluntness. But, I have to admit that I like this "nice-person" undercutting better than the more deadly blunt ones. It really seems a shame to see a few of those very pointed posts edited and deleted by staff!




Post Merge: June 18, 2009, 01:13:59 AM
Laura, we mostly all think we are "right." Why bother to add anything to a thread if we think we have nothing at all to add? Now that makes no sense. And I would suppose that one would find that in any forum or blog or what-have-ya.

[Tammy Hope]

Dunno.

I myself have had my mind changed by a BBS discussion more times than I can count.

Maybe I'm just weak or something.

[Mister]

Am I the only one who thinks that we help reinforce that misconception when we allow ourselves to be enveloped under the "LGBT" umbrella on all the social activism causes?

Nothing against homosexuality, and especually nothing abainst "standing together" where we have common cause, but I sometimes wonder if the term LGBT is itself an enemy of accurate perceptions of trans people.

I'm with you on this one, Laura.  The only way I've been able to understand why we're under the LGB umbrella is that many people in the 'T' consider their status as trans-something to be a cultural identity, much like the members of the LGB community.

That being said, a friend asked me if I was going to SF Pride... and I am.  With a gay friend visiting from out of town.  I won't be there as a 'T', though, but as an ally.

[tekla]

I never try to end discussion. But I do try to steer them to the real ideals being talked about.

[NicholeW.]

Dunno.

I myself have had my mind changed by a BBS discussion more times than I can count.

Maybe I'm just weak or something.

But when you began the discussion did you think you were right? That IS the point. If you have something to say, right or wrong, write and post it.

And you are not the only person to have their minds changed about things. Is that a weakness?

I think you know that it isn't, but the kinda passive-aggressive stance of that reply is a bit too much. So, you changed your mind. Haven't we all? 

[Tammy Hope]

Probably. But not all admit it, at least not publicly.

Passive aggressive?

Damn.

Ok, whatever. I'm out on the ideology stuff. I'm gonna stick to making sense of my own life. Enjoy your movement.

[Alyssa M.]

Third fact is that a lot of those "only transsexuals there are" folk also seem hellbent on suddenly assuming the trappings of womanhood, as if NOW, NARAL memberships and using a "female" restroom and suddenly admiting a fondness for various shades of pink and purple that they often avoided like the colors themselves carried the Human Immuno-deficiency Virus have now somehow become indicators that "I am a woman, dammit." Again, seems a bit unusual, such remarkable changes brought about by a hormonal change. I suppose I am just very sceptical and should prolly be dismissed for that very reason.

Nichole, what are you getting at here? Facts 1 and 2 pointed to the hypocrisy of the being transsexual and trying to retain straight/cis privilege, and I guess there's a little of that here, but aren't all mtf transitioners, ipso facto, "assuming the trappings of womanhood"?

Just curious -- I liked, or at least I basically agreed with, the rest of your post, but was a bit puzzled by this.

[Mister]

Third fact is that a lot of those "only transsexuals there are" folk also seem hellbent on suddenly assuming the trappings of womanhood, as if NOW, NARAL memberships and using a "female" restroom and suddenly admiting a fondness for various shades of pink and purple that they often avoided like the colors themselves carried the Human Immuno-deficiency Virus have now somehow become indicators that "I am a woman, dammit." Again, seems a bit unusual, such remarkable changes brought about by a hormonal change. I suppose I am just very sceptical and should prolly be dismissed for that very reason

This had me rolling.

Can I blame the drugs again?

[finewine]

Well, I know I'm still a newcomer to many of these issues and I don't deny that I may have a resultant naivety but I'm still confused as to what the disagreement is...if any.  I mean, I agree completely with the anti-separatist argument but then I still don't see where any advocacy of separatism has occurred.  I guess I'm missing something

[Alyssa M.]

This had me rolling.

Can I blame the drugs again?

Nah, I think it was just straight up funny.

(I was just thinking there was a point behind the pointed snarkiness)

[NicholeW.]

The point is the lengths people will go to "affirm my womanhood." What? I suddenly get a longing to dress in pink when I wouldn't even wear a pink oxford shirt while I was boying it around?

Or I will now "prove" my womanhood by joining NOW after years of bitchin' and moanin' about those femi-nazis?

Sorry, but I tend to be snarky because I find the switch to be just utterly ludicrous. As if all women like pink or join NOW or are feminists.

It just all seems rather much a pose sometimes, Alyssa. And that's about as far as I will explain it.

Ah, except for one other thing.

but aren't all mtf transitioners, ipso facto, "assuming the trappings of womanhood"?

No, I don't believe or experience that we all are, only some who are trying too hard, imo, to impress that outward womanhood. For me that shows a rather fair amount of lack of belief in one's inner womanhood. You know, that bit about "it's gender, not sex."

It is darn well about sex, the biological kind. Not the between the sheets kind. And no amount of outward apparel or outward mannerism is gonna make the "not there" there.

[Mister]

The point is the lengths people will go to "affirm my womanhood." What? I suddenly get a longing to dress in pink when I wouldn't even wear a pink oxford shirt while I was boying it around?

Or I will now "prove" my womanhood by joining NOW after years of bitchin' and moanin' about those femi-nazis?

Sorry, but I tend to be snarky because I find the switch to be just utterly ludicrous. As if all women like pink or join NOW or are feminists.

It just all seems rather much a pose sometimes, Alyssa. And that's about as far as I will explain it.

So what you're saying, Nichole, is that I need to stop crushing beer cans on my forehead?  Damnit.

[Alyssa M.]

I guess I'm missing something

Oh, dear. Yes, you are. I guess I'll just say you really don't want to know. There's an underlying debate that keeps coming up from time to time. It gets old really fast, kind of similar to how the BBL theory debates get old -- another thing you don't want to know about if you don't already.

[NicholeW.]

So what you're saying, Nichole, is that I need to stop crushing beer cans on my forehead?  Damnit.

Yeah, that doesn't make a guy. I can take you to a few places in TN where women do that as well. Hell, I can take to a few places in Cali where the women do that as well. Or NJ or PA!

[Mister]

Yeah, that doesn't make a guy. I can take you to a few places in TN where women do that as well. Hell, I can take to a few places in Cali where the women do that as well. Or NJ or PA!

Thanks for the update.  Now maybe my chronic headaches will stop   

[NicholeW.]

Oh, dear. Yes, you are. I guess I'll just say you really don't want to know. There's an underlying debate that keeps coming up from time to time. It gets old really fast, kind of similar to how the BBL theory debates get old -- another thing you don't want to know about if you don't already.

So what "underlying debate" is that, Lyssa? If you think it's HBS you couldn't be more wrong. I debate the other side to that one. The diversity is good side, just like you do.