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Is it wrong that some trans pictures make me uncomfortable?

Started by Firelight, June 19, 2009, 08:00:13 PM

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Nero

Wow Meghan. You've come a long way baby!
I'm in the sort of awkward inbetween stage - look like a female trying to be male. But I see glimmers of hope.  :)
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Alyssa M.

Meghan, thank you -- that kind of collection is really helpful to help people like me who are early in transition (or pre-transition entirely) get a sense of what sorts of changes you can expect.

For me, I think that part of the "ick factor" is basically the same as what happens when people live in ethnically homogenous regions see people of a different race or ethnicity. It's a kind of bias born of unfamiliarity. As you see more people in a category, you start to see them as unusual.

Another part is self-criticism. When I see a trans woman who isn't very attractive or feminine, it reminds me of my own insecurities in my looks; whereas when I see a trans man who isn't very attractive or masculine, it doesn't particularly affect me. And when I see a cis woman who isn't attractive or feminine I think, "woohoo -- if people see her as a womman, maybe they can see me as a woman too!"

So the "ick factor" is just a symptom of different problems: a society that makes trans people invisible (though less and less every day), and personal insecurity. Fix those, and the "ick factor" disappears.
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another.

   - Anatole France
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avmorgan

A brave and enlightening showcase, Meghan! A bit sobering, in a grounding kind of way and it reminds me not to let what I look like at a given moment floor me. I am appalled by what I look like right now because I fell apart when my initial attempt to transition crashed and burned. I don't stand still long enough to have my picture taken, so I had to go back to my high school portraits to find one to morph, so the female version is probably an unattainable ideal.

This is where I am really starting out:



The camera is not kind to me at all these days, and if I can resume transition, there will be "ohmigod!" days ahead of me. That is true for all of us, and I can only hope that those awkward days that make people around me uncomfortable are filled with people who are compassionate enough to think, "Poor thing is going through hell" and not "What a freak!"

Not that it really bothers me to be a freak. I only worry about what people think when they are making decisions that affect my ability to survive, my ability to pay the bills... and of course my ability to use a public restroom!
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Mister

Is it wrong?  Hell no.

There are a lot of incredibly unattractive transpeople.  Here in SF, it's a few days before pride and all the tourists are showing up.  There is no larger gathering of unattractive transpeople than the SF Trans March. 
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Alyssa M.

Let's rephrase the question:

Is it okay that looking at unattractive people makes me uncomfortable?
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another.

   - Anatole France
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avmorgan

Thanks for clarifying your question. Phrased this way, it sounds like the answer you are looking for might take a little soul searching, to figure out why it makes you uncomfortable to look at someone who is unattractive or unusual looking. Part of that is normal psychology, because the long long period in which human behavior evolved disfigurement could be a sign of disease, and people who responded negatively to an odd appearance in a stranger might have avoided contracting dangerous diseases. It's a common issue with leprosy in parts of the world where it still occurs frequently. People are literally outcast from their homes and villages, and in communities where little is known about how the disease is transmitted, it probably helps limit its transmission. Of course, these days there is a treatment that will stop transmission, though the damage to the nervous system cannot be repaired and the secondary infections that cause those who have had leprosy to lose limbs are still possible due to untreated injuries they cannot feel.

On a social level, there is a purely antisocial kind of response based on our reaction to what we perceive as different or alien that can turn into outright discrimination, and if your reaction to a person's appearance prevents you from respecting his or her basic humanity, or getting to know them as a person, then you may be inclined to social prejudice. There are a lot of other reasons for feeling discomfort, though, like heightened empathy, in which case you project what you see in others upon your self, and this can feel like a threat to your own identity and make you uncomfortable. In other cases, what you feel might just be an instinctive reaction to an experience that challenges your perceived norms and the feeling serves to make sure you don't take the situation for granted. Again, a lingering survival trait in which different can be dangerous.

So, to answer your question, there isn't an "okay" or "not okay" type of answer. It's more of a "food for thought" type of situation.
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Nero

Quote from: Matilda on June 21, 2009, 04:10:45 PM
I'd agree that not everyone looks like a supermodel, yet when a trans woman looks obviously male (or a trans man looks obviously female), sometimes keeping our opinions to ourselves works best instead of the usual "you pass, you don't need anything done" bull fertilizer you read on some boards.




true. sometimes if they really need help, it's more harmful to say they don't.

Post Merge: June 22, 2009, 04:26:51 AM

Re: Is it wrong that some trans pictures make me uncomfortable?

Yeah, I think this is the same visceral response many cissexuals have. And for us, it may add to the discomfort by knowing what the poor soul is going through. I know that before I came out as trans and understood what it is to have GID, I just assumed drag queens and crossdressers didn't 'care' if they passed or not. But now, everytime I see one, I hope they are not TS and suffering.  :(
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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tekla

Is it okay that looking at unattractive people makes me uncomfortable?

Sure, its fine.  Otherwise the entire Hollywood star/model/glamor industry would die like it was GM.  It works in reverse also, the way 'rougher' people get cast as bad guys.

There is no larger gathering of unattractive transpeople than the SF Trans March
Noise Pop, or any night at the Pound, or any Marylin Manson concert will give you a run for the money.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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barbie

Quote from: Alyssa M. on June 21, 2009, 11:35:39 PM
Is it okay that looking at unattractive people makes me uncomfortable?

I think it's OK.

In my case, sometimes looking at attractive people make me extremely uncomfortable (as I am so jealous of them).

Barbie~~
Just do it.
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Ellieka

I know that I'm far from perfect myself but what really gives me the creeps is when I see a picture in which some one is trans, usually MtF, but makes no attempt to look the part aside from stuffing some socks in a bra and putting on a skirt. I mean come on! If your not going to even attempt to put on some make up at least photo shop in a wig or something.

But whats worse then that is to think some would actually go out like that. Back about ten years or so ago I myself did something stupid like that.

I had a day to myself and I was at home playing dress up. I had on a really slutty skirt and spaghetti strap tank and I was trying various makeup techniques. I wanted to play with some eye shadow and eye liner but I didn't have the colors I wanted so I got brave and decided to go out like that and buy some. So, as scary as I looked I went. I got out of my car and walked about 5 steps into the local Walmart and got clocked by a group of three 20-ish guys. They made no attempt at being discreet about it either and started acting rather threatening.

I can honestly say the only time I have been more scared was when my first wife had a hart attack in a Burger King restaurant. But I learned my lesson.

I think some transgendered people who are just starting out, myself included, are often influenced by testosterone and it clouds our judgment. Just because you can fit into that size 6 mini skirt does not mean you should. If you an older person, don't dress like your 13. Just because it looks cute on the anorexic manikin in the store does not mean it will look good on you.       

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Meshi

I see pics of  TS all the  time.  Some are very pretty and feminine, some have prominent features, and  there are some that are just so masculine that even with FFS you  can  only do so much..Thing to  remember tho  is that it is about the  person inside...how  they feel about themselves..there is such  a variance of values, character, what  ppls sexuality is like and how they feel as far as if they are female by nature or a sexual aspect  only.   I am TS/TG, so  i try to look past the physical and  try to find out what the person is like inside.  there are some really actually female natural born males that are not that fem looking, but are far beyond what even some gg's are as far as being  a woman...Not to down play that a natural born woman isnt as "female", but it is  a midset that  is  either there or it isnt.  Just my opinion on the subject.
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K8

Avmorgan,

Yesterday after seeing the picture you posted, I was sitting in the coffee shop when a woman walked in with a small child.  She had long hair and no beard and considerable mammary development but otherwise looked like a twin of your picture.  (God love her!) 

There is a huge range to how we look.  We tend to look at and aspire to those who have been gifted, but not all of us were so lucky.  Part of it, though, is what we do with what we have.

And I think being TGs ourselves, we are sensitized to it.  I am friends with a lovely, attracive, fun woman I had pegged as a TS the first time I met her.  Oops. :P

Again, it's not what you look like; it is how you feel that is important.

- Kate
Life is a pilgrimage.
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avmorgan

"Again, it's not what you look like; it is how you feel that is important."

So true, and in some cases, how you feel impacts what you look like. I've spent years feeling like crap and it shows in all the pictures taken of me during those years (sparse as they are!). I did not care at all for how I looked and the neglect eventually left its mark. In the past two weeks, I've had a boost in my self esteem and I've seen a marked improvement in my appearance--even in the few days since I took the "current" picture I posted here.

It also shows in the photomontage Meghan shared with us. Our faces change subtly each day in response to changes in diet, exercise, hygiene and hormones. Yes, some things are harder to change, like bone structure, but that too can be dealt with. Positive thoughts and positive actions make a difference. There were a lot of in-between stages in Meghan's transformation, before ffs, that I thought were simply gorgeous in spite of "obviously" masculine bone structure. A lot of it was just her personality showing through.
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Ellieka

Quote from: K8 on June 23, 2009, 06:42:11 AM
Again, it's not what you look like; it is how you feel that is important.

I kinda have to disagree. Opposite gendered twins may look strikingly similar but the male is likely to have broader shoulders and narrower hips. So if he and his sister were to put on the exact same outfit I would wager a bet that if they went out like that he would stand A higher chance of getting pummeled. I can feel as pretty as a princess but if I obviously look male and go traipsing into the public ladies room I best be prepared for confrontation.

Now I know there is a distinct difference between "passing" and being attractive. There are indeed a lot of very ugly cis gendered people but their mannerisms, posture, and bone structure often make their gender very obvious.

As I've said before, I'm no beauty queen but I would rather be an ugly woman then a handsome man. In that regard yes it is largely how you feel about yourself but it's also important to present yourself properly and in accordance with your target gender.

And yes how you feel can influence your looks. When I was in male mode I had no trouble attracting a mate because even though I hated my body I was at the same time very sure of my attractiveness. Near the end of that when living as male became unbearable my appearance degraded. I did not feel or look attractive in any attire and I could tell other peoples perception of me changed as well.         
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Tammy Hope

Well most of my "ick" moments involve a mirror or my own photos. But given I've been convinced of my own ugliness for well over 30 years I'm used to it. That said, yes I do notice when someone seems to be under prepared or just wildly unsuited physically and my heart goes out to the latter especially because i know how it feels to have a few big impediments (and I'm crazy jealous of you who turn out so pretty!)


All that said, the hardest thing for me, in terms of judging myself, is that the more passable i am (I won't even go to "pretty") the more confidence I can have and it's the confidence you guys tells me that seals the deal - I have trouble being confident when I'm in doubt about my appearance. When I came home dressed yesterday I chickened out on wearing a formed bra and some pads that I had with me and took a less daring approach...almost entirely that's a lack of confidence.

Still, inspired by Megan's montage, I want to post a pic of what I looked like a year ago just to give you some idea of the progress this ugly girl is making. I'm not sure if it will be encouraging or dejecting lol.
Disclaimer: due to serious injury, most of my posts are made via Dragon Dictation which sometimes butchers grammar and mis-hears my words. I'm also too lazy to closely proof-read which means some of my comments will seem strange.


http://eachvoicepub.com/PaintedPonies.php
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Virginia87106

My own personal view is I would like to not have an "ick" factor when I look at anyone, for any reason.  My spiritual discipline teaches me that when I look on another in judgment, I am actually dealing with the same issue in some part of my life, so the "ick" applies to me too, if I feel it for another.

If I get quiet with myself and ask the universe, God or Spirit what that place in me is, I usually get an answer.

But I do not lay that out for you all, that is just me.
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xsocialworker

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chrysalis

Quote from: Virginia87106 on June 23, 2009, 07:22:12 PM
My own personal view is I would like to not have an "ick" factor when I look at anyone, for any reason.  My spiritual discipline teaches me that when I look on another in judgment, I am actually dealing with the same issue in some part of my life, so the "ick" applies to me too, if I feel it for another.

If I get quiet with myself and ask the universe, God or Spirit what that place in me is, I usually get an answer.

But I do not lay that out for you all, that is just me.

I don't know what spiritual path you're coming from, but more or less that has been my conclusion. Though there are sometimes (i.e. gender->-bleeped-<-) when it is simply a vivid contrast of the genders and sexes which catches us off guard.

Personally I hate it, but I often have this reaction. I want to embrace fellow trans people instead of making them feel so shunned, but it is this horrible reaction I have. I'm working on it though, exposure is key.
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V M

Virginia will not offer an opinion at this time because she doesn't feel like getting trampled upon  :P
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
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Krissy_Australia

Hi Laura

This thread I believe was originally about you. To be honest you posted a few pictures that were confronting.

You have replied and shown a personality that I now see the woman inside you.

Laura, you are beutifull

Krissy
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