Downfall: See not my fall from grace.

[Carolyn]

I'd like to share just how I myself lost all taste in religion. I was raised to believe in the bible as the truth, I went to church like any other child would. I was first introduced to the teachings of Christianity when I was roughly 7 or 8, by who I remember not. I went to a church by the name of Twin City Bible in the city Dunbar. There I got saved 3 times, and told so many things. Like the story of Jesus and the Story of Noah and of Johna and the Big Fish.

I was also sent to Camp Happy Valley a Christian ran camp from age 9-12. It was at the age of 10 that I can remember crying in the car when my father put in Rob Zombie, why was I crying? Well I thought that I was going to go to hell if I listened to Rob Zombie because I thought he was satanist, so I covered my ears and asked god to forgive me. While at Camp Happy valley my mind was able to wonder about things. We would do many activities and they would teach us out the word of God. One day I decided to read the bible for myself so I could have a better relationship with Jesus.

I begin with the Book of Genesis and right from the start I was in disbelief, the more I read the more sick I became, but I couldn't stop reading. I finally had to just stop about the book of Judges. Of Course when I asked those in charge about the stuff I read I was even more shocked they said that it wasn't in the bible. And they didn't listen when I tried to show them, saying I was just a kid. It wasn't until my last year there age 13 that I took my stand. It was my little brothers first year, and I made sure it was his last year there as well. Normally the 13 year olds couldn't stay with the 6 year olds but because he was scared they made an exception. While there I become the leader of the kids even over the person in charge of the cabin, the kids listened to me over him. If he said to do something they looked at me, and I either told them to do it or not to and they did.

I told the children what I learned over the past 7 months, and that every thing they were telling us was lies, I tried my best to put those boys on the path to questioning everything. When the week was over I made enemies of everyone in my age group and I made an enemy of everyone who was in charge, but even with everyone against me, those boys looked to me for answers, and followed me. I planted the seed of doubt in them. Doubt is a great gift little really understand.

At age 14 we got internet at our home, and then my grades in school begin to slip, for many reasons. I begin to research everything I could about religion and science, I begin to see just how much was true and how much was false. I begin to question religion massively. When I was 15 my three best subjects are as they are now: Religion, Science, Gender. My school grades where Ds and Es mainly because I was lazy I viewed school as mundane and useless, The things I was being taught was things I already knew, I was wanting to know more, so I read ahead in my science books and my history books, and each time I did I got in trouble for it.

I just didn't care anymore. And when asked to pick a topic in my speech class I chose religion, and my teacher asked why and I said that I wanted to show how much of it could be disproved and she wouldn't allow me to do so, I asked why and she said "because the word of god is 100% true" and then I asked her about much of what I read in the bible and she called me a lair. At age 16-18 I left my religion research and begin with my transgendered research. It wasn't until 19 that I went back to religion to do more research and learn more. Now at age 21 I can truly say I do not believe in any god, nor any religion and that in order for us humans to live on in religion MUST DIE.

[finewine]

You may want a couple of double-taps on the enter key to break that into paragraphs for easier reading

Meanwhile, I wouldn't hold your breath on religion dying out for a good while yet.  People yearn to understand the world around them and there are some holes in our knowledge that are hard for many to bear.

For example, the subjective sense of self-awareness, qualia etc. are so vivid that we have the idea of "soul" - that there is something ineffable about us.  This makes it hard for many folks to come to terms with the idea that biological death is the end of the road, so one takes solace in life-after-death myths.

Alternatively, the apparent wonderful complexity of the universe and the many gaps in our knowledge are yearning to be filled - and the temptation to fill that gap with god is, for many, irresistible. Of course, this behaviour has evolved over time.  At one point, our closest star was worshipped as a god (which was actually even more understandable, given the awesome brilliance, heat and necessity for life inherent to it).  As our sphere of understanding increased, the active anthropomorphic visualizations of god were unsustainable, so that today it's a concept that resides in the intangible, distant shadows of human consciousness.

However, it is unlikely - I would say impossible - to have complete, comprehensive certainty about all of nature.  There will always be gaps, things we don't know...and there will always be people who fill the gaps with superstition.

So, instead of ranting against religion, I would recommend letting people have their beliefs and respect their choices.  It would be nice if those belief systems weren't foisted on the rest of us and on that front, there is justifiable cause for activism.

[Genevieve Swann]

It is impossible to know how much of the Bible is true if any. Maybe the original writers were merely good story tellers. "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story." Also, the original writings of the bible have been interpreted and translated so many times the true meaning has been lost. Almost all people I know who are very religious need their beleifs to feel secure. It's a crutch for their insecurities. Religion helps society retain some reasonable moral values. Morals, not ethics. Their morality concerning marraige and adultery are impeccable. However that same person would be the first to embezzle every penny you have if given the chance. The meek shall inherit the earth. Therefore make me a meek, penniless infidel and I may inherit the earth. HaHa. If or when they find out there is no God society may disintegrate. Maybe She is an E.T. from Venus. The U.S. air Force and NASA have an instruction for pilots and astronauts telling them not to make public any UFO sitings because it may result in the disintegration of society. They use the arrival of Columbus, Cortez, Pizzaro and Balboa as examples of what causes otherwise stable societies to fall apart.Other than disease the worst thing they did to the indigenous of the Americas was converting them to chistianity. Mayans, Aztecs and Incas wer just fine worshipping the earth, moon and stars. A new religion was their downfall.

[finewine]

[...] Religion helps society retain some reasonable moral values. Morals, not ethics. Their morality concerning marraige and adultery are impeccable. [...]

Really?

       "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife,
        both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."
             - Deuteronomy 22:22

       "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with
        the wife of his neighbor - both the adulterer and the adulteress
        must be put to death."
             - Leviticus 20:10

Not quite my idea of impeccable morality Genevieve    Of course, some would argue that it shouldn't be taken literally but then, of course, that implies interpreting the words with an external moral framework!

This external morality is something, ironically, the bible also eludes to when Abraham argues the toss with god over god being overzealous with smiting Sodom & Gomorrah.  Abraham actually points out the injustice of killing the innocent - how many innocent must die before it becomes wrong?  Ok find 50, says god.  What about if I find 45? (Genesis 18:26...etc.)

So...if the bible/religion/god was absolute, why on earth would Hammy even dare to question god - and where does his moral stand against the wholesale destruction originate?  The answer is that Abraham, like all humans, must have the gift of autonomous external moral judgement - it's not as simple as following a rule book, despite what fundie nutters would assert.

[Alicia Marie]

Carolyn,
  The answer isn't to give up and turn others from the faith, but to keep searching for yourself until the Lord reveals himself to you.
  There are too many churches and pastors out there that spend so much time destroying people's faith that they never get around to preaching the gospel to build the faith of their flock. The Bible shows us that the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who do not believe. It also shows us where even Paul said that God hath chosen the foolish things to confound the wise and the weak things to confound the things that are mighty.
  The entire gospel is about coming unto the Lord by faith. That faith is the substance of things not seen. If we see it then it is no longer coming by faith.
  I'm sorry that churches couldn't answer your questions and just contributed in turning you away.
  I do hope you reconsider and try too believe again.

[fae_reborn]

I was baptized catholic, but gave up on Christianity when I was about 10.  The Bible, true or not, was written by white men who held power, and perhaps distorted the story to keep themselves in power.

I worship the Earth, I'm a proud Pagan, and Mother Goddess watches over me and loves me.  If you want to know the real impact Christianity has had, just take a look at the evolution of the Western World over the past thousand years, and how many wars have been fought or acts committed in the name of "God"...personally, it makes me sick.

[Miniar]

The time comes for many of us to walk away from people telling us what to believe, and instead, read the available doctrine of a religion, or many religions, and looking at it from his or her own personal viewpoint, and trying to decide what they believe for themselves and why.
Don't let anyone, not pastors, not believers, not other members of this forum, tell you what to do, how, when and what to believe or what conclusions to come to and you'll find your own true beliefs.
Best of luck to you hun.

[tekla]

Sometimes the fall from grace is just the accent into reason.

[Carolyn]

Sometimes the fall from grace is just the accent into reason.

I agree.

Moving on, as I would like to say this to Genevieve Swann and Alicia Marie.
If some needs religion to make them feel secure or safe they are weak, they open the door for people like Ted Heidegger and Kent Ham to become leaders of there little faith, to try and misguide little children from the truths that we know thanks to science (such as Evolution and the Big Bang), They cause more harm than good. Is a secure felling really wroth the unreasonable beliefs that cause harm to so many people. More people have been killed in the name of god more than anything else.

Religion is for the opium of the masses, it allows the weak minded to be controlled. And I'm sorry but anyone who can believe in a book that says all mankind is damned because a rib-woman was convicted by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree, and the only way to be saved was to telepathically tell a jewish zombie who was his own father that you except him as your master, your a pathetic, your weak, Grow up and leave your fairy tales behind. This is the modern world, Bronze age myths don't belong!

[Nero]

I agree.

Moving on, as I would like to say this to Genevieve Swann and Alicia Marie.
If some needs religion to make them feel secure or safe they are weak, they open the door for people like Ted Heidegger and Kent Ham to become leaders of there little faith, to try and misguide little children from the truths that we know thanks to science (such as Evolution and the Big Bang), They cause more harm than good. Is a secure felling really wroth the unreasonable beliefs that cause harm to so many people. More people have been killed in the name of god more than anything else.

Religion is for the opium of the masses, it allows the weak minded to be controlled. And I'm sorry but anyone who can believe in a book that says all mankind is damned because a rib-woman was convicted by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree, and the only way to be saved was to telepathically tell a jewish zombie who was his own father that you except him as your master, your a pathetic, your weak, Grow up and leave your fairy tales behind. This is the modern world, Bronze age myths don't belong!

Please remember that other posters have their own beliefs which they are entitled to discuss here without being subject to name calling or ridicule, just as you are free to discuss yours.

[tekla]

To be fair, you either believe this - or that the world sits on a giant turtle, or that people were given special plates and glasses with with to decode them, or any other religious foundation - or its not just a little off, its a complete and utter - and I mean total - fabrication.  It's either absolute Truth, or worse than a fairy tale, because we're taught not to believe in fairy tales.  There is, nor can there be, any middle ground.  It can't be a 'little bit' right, or a 'touch' wrong.  It either is, or its not.

[Alicia Marie]

Carolyn,
  I don't mind if you refer unto those of us that hold deep spiritual convictions in Christ weak but please stop to think about this forum and others here.
  Some here have spiritual convictions they turn to in their hour of despair. Is it really helping to call them weak?
  This is a support sight and the transsexual community should be lifting each other up where they can. Not answering in a way that hurts the faith of those who cling to their spiritual beliefs.
  It's sad enough that the trans community is hurt by so many others. They don't need to be hurting each other on a support sight.
  My answer was meant to help and not harm. It came forth with an attempt to give some sort of light in which way to go that could be accepted or rejected. There was no intention to hurt others.

[tekla]

See, what I find funny is that I'm expected to cater to superstition, or faith if you will, but people of faith, or superstition if you will, have no compunction about tossing it about and interjecting into everything, and if we disagree, we're being rude.  If you disagree, we ought to cater to you.  Strange.

[Miniar]

I'm not an atheist, but I don't go around suggesting that people should believe what I do or that "my" gods are the solution, or that it's no big deal if you die cause of the reincarnation etc, etc, etc,.. but on the other hand, I don't go around telling people that their beliefs are "opium" either..
I have great respect for most atheists I know, they're good people and they (don't) believe what they do(n't) for a wide array of Good reasons... but so do I

[Carolyn]

I attack beliefs that are unreasonable, not the person, if someone is offended because of what I say that is there problem not mine, but I'm sorry but people who are moderate followers or moderate worshipers, give rise to the crazy ones who will try to fulfill the stuff written about said faith. It's okay to believe in a "God" per say but not in religion, religion is simply a virus on the minds of humans. Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, ect. None of them belong in the modren world, each holy text holds no truth, their just stories, not the truth. Religion is the virus, Logic and Reason is the cure.

[Cindy]

If religion is important to your life then I think that is wonderful. That faith or conviction I respect fully. I think it rude to belittle another persons beliefs, as long as they do not interfere with my life.

However I went to school at a christian brothers college. I was so against the bible that I was the only one was told that I could not take the "o-levels" (a UK education qualification at about 16yrs old) for religon as I would be a disgrace to the school. Only time I ever got any respect from others in that school

Cindy

[fae_reborn]

I attack beliefs that are unreasonable, not the person, if someone is offended because of what I say that is there problem not mine, but I'm sorry but people who are moderate followers or moderate worshipers, give rise to the crazy ones who will try to fulfill the stuff written about said faith. It's okay to believe in a "God" per say but not in religion, religion is simply a virus on the minds of humans. Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, ect. None of them belong in the modren world, each holy text holds no truth, their just stories, not the truth. Religion is the virus, Logic and Reason is the cure.

It is from those very "stories" as you say from which some of us define who we are, where we've been, and where we're going.  Personally I take offense at you or anyone who attack my beliefs (or anyone else' here), because that is an attack on my person; my beliefs are part of who I am, they are part of my very identity.  I am a Pagan/Spiritualist, a Daughter of Eve and child of this Earth and the Great Mother, and you cannot take that away from me.  If you believe that Logic and Reason is the "cure" for you, on a personal level, that is fine, and I respect you for that.  But don't try to say that our beliefs are somehow a "virus" and force your own beliefs on us. 

Last I knew, there were no so-called "radical" Pagans out there trying to harm others.  One of the central tenants of Paganism/Wicca is "An' it harm none, do what ye will."  It is a peaceful religion, and it's not harming you, so why the vile attack on mine (or any others) beliefs?