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Why are boy-girls more accepted then girl-boys?

Started by Anima, July 19, 2009, 07:13:16 PM

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Anima

If a woman with long hair would have put on a suit and be dressed completely as a man, then I don't think anyone would dislike it or anything, many would even think she looked good. But if a man with a big beard would put on a pink ballet dress, I'm sure most people would find it very unusual, or even offensive. The first is something like people react to with "oh, ok.." and the second something like "WHAT??!??!?"

Why is that so?

I think the same goes with behavior.
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Nero

sexism. masculinity is admired, femininity is exploited. it's the 'natural way of things' for women to want act like men, men trying to act like women is a step down. I highly recommend reading Julia Serano.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Constance

As much as it galls me to agree, Nero is probably right. No one bats an eye at a woman in pants. But let a man wear a skirt (unless he's a one of those telephone-pole-throwing Scots), and then all hell breaks loose.

wannalivethetruth

people always have there expectations of what a "male" should actually be.
I dont know why they do that, but it's tearing some people apart.
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Ell

Quote from: wannalivethetruth on July 19, 2009, 07:42:14 PM
people always have there expectations of what a "male" should actually be.

yeah, and there are very strictly defined boundaries that cannot crossed without being called a girly man -- and hated. girly mans, and we all have to cross thru that to transition, are so reviled in so many quarters, that even lesbian women can get away with hating them.
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Genevieve Swann

Society no longer considers a woman in pants a crossdresser. I read an article that said in the 50s small town USA some communities had a law that woman could not wear pants on Sunday. Could actually be jailed for awhile. Pants are alright but I hate seeing a woman in cowboys boots. I grew up in Wyo. and most women who wore cowboy boots out to a bar or restaurant were filthy wh----! Hookers trying to pick up bullriders. Usually had a mouth worse than a drunken sailor.    A guy really should get rid of the beard before wearing a tutu. Shave the armpits also.

finewine

I think Nero got it right, although I'd add a little added homophobia in the mix too (due to a man in a dress being assumed to be "gay").
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DarkLady

Actually the hole thing has much to do with militaristic nationalism that rose in the late 19 th century and is still worshipped in some places like here and in the most places in the USA.
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DarkLady

Yes of course. But in today's society the ''nation-building nationalism'' that caused the World wars is a very important piece of it.
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Lachlann

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on July 19, 2009, 07:40:51 PM
As much as it galls me to agree, Nero is probably right. No one bats an eye at a woman in pants. But let a man wear a skirt (unless he's a one of those telephone-pole-throwing Scots), and then all hell breaks loose.
Let me be the first to say, the moment I pass 100% on T I'm going to buy a kilt.
Don't be scared to fly alone, find a path that is your own
Love will open every door it's in your hands, the world is yours
Don't hold back and always know, all the answers will unfold
What are you waiting for, spread your wings and soar
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Miniar

Quote from: Monty on July 20, 2009, 10:49:11 AM
Let me be the first to say, the moment I pass 100% on T I'm going to buy a kilt.
Me too!
A Black Leather Utilikilt for me :D



"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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Fenrir

I think it's a combination of ingrained societal sexism and strict views on what males should look like. I've read lots of theories on this and they ranged from society viewing it as being OK for women to elevate themselves to the higher status of men but it being 'degrading' for men to dress as women, to the absolute rules imposed on men about their masculinity being violated. I agree also with the person who thought there was homophobia in the mix there too. A man in a dress is still viewed by many as some kind of perversion (female clothing is sexualised much more than male clothing, and so a bearded man trying to wear something like that while not being apparently feminine will be seen as trying to be sexual? Some theory that just came into my head...) so people will steer clear of that person. Plus, male clothing is much more practical (this might just be my opinion though!) so the person would've had to go to a reasonable amount of trouble to wear that, so it may be seen as a more deliberate statement.
Gosh, I thank Marlene Dietrich (and other 1920s/30s actresses and tennis players) for making it normal for females to wear trousers! I don't know how guys cope with such a tiny range of 'normal' appearances. I'm not shallow or anything (far from it, I wander around in borderline pyjamas), I just feel that people should be able to express themselves in whatever they feel like wearing without being subject to massive social stigma.  :-\ Guys really need some kind of sexual revolution (similar to the one females had many years ago) in order to reform these really strict social pressures and get more freedom. I'd do it, but I'm female-bodied and so people wouldn't get the point I was trying prove.  :D
I remember a non-uniform day at my old school where one of the guys came in in a pink t-shirt (not even a girl's t-shirt or anything) and there was a massive buzz about it ("oh my gosh! Is he gay? Most guys can't pull that kind of thing off..." etc. etc.) whereas I was there in completely male clothing and no-one batted an eyelid.  ???
And I've wondered for years why in comedy shows men in dresses are viewed as 'funny' in comedy sketches while women dressing as men is not. It might be a combination of women in male clothing being normalised whereas men dressing as women is taboo.
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Omika

It's probably because a big bearded guy wearing a pink tutu is hilarious, and an attractive woman in a suit is hot.

Don't ask me to explain it.  All I know is what's powerful, and what's laughable.

When genetics and body modification technology get to a certain point, it won't matter anyways.  We'll all get to look totally awesome.

I mean, let's face it... no one really wants to look like a big bearded guy in a tutu.  But everyone wants to be the sexy, domineering woman in slacks who don't take guff from nobody.

If I'm wrong there, then... well... I guess I've grossly misunderstood human nature.
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Autumn

I think part of the female attire is the female body itself.

Say you're wearing a big suit, basically everything is covered. If you're wearing a mens' suit, it doesn't even really contour to your body, and with shoulderpads in mens and womens blazers, even the shape of your shoulders and neck is concealed somewhat.

If you're wearing a casual dress, you've got the upper chest, arms, shoulders, and varying amounts of the back open and exposed. In general, it's expected to fit on a slender, smooth frame. Like how wearing socks with sandals is usually tacky. And when you have a lot of upper body mass, dresses don't look good anyway. Look at fat women in wedding dresses. Or all sorts of styles that shouldn't be worn if you're of sufficient age/weight/sag.

There are all sorts of fashion tips for women about how long or short their skirts should be, what kind of waistline to wear, and so forth... part of dressing well is dressing to compliment your shape. I am not sure how well an evening dress compliments a bodybuilder.

Clothing wise, womens clothing is designed to show off the body and mens is designed to conceal it. This both reduces the appearance of men being out of shape (a little bit of a gut hidden in a baggy shirt) and also adds illusion of size (big, squared suit jackets.) Men want to look bigger, women want to look smaller.

That said, those reasons are of course much smaller than the whole 'attack on masculinity, degrading oneself, homo->-bleeped-<-' angle that is probably a lot more to blame. If you work with men in an environment like I do, you'll hear comments on nearly every woman who walks by, good or bad. A lot of men sexualize anything feminine and it bothers them to see it applied to a guy. Things like makeup take time, money, experience, and are obnoxious (i can't rub my eyes! argh) and are only done to make yourself prettier... which is a very non male thing to do for our species.

The utility thing is obnoxious. I wear 99% womens' clothing, the biggest exception being the mens slacks i wear at work because it's like having four bags of holding on me at any time. Before I outgrew my womens slacks, I'd always have things falling out of the tiny little pockets, even if there was only one thing in them, if it even fit at all.

I tried to explain this to my therapist. "Why don't you just carry a purse? ... Oh. Right. I forgot."  :laugh:

And most womens shoes seem designed so that you break your ankle or get caught and beaten if you have to run from a bad situation. I would advise more women to consider the function over fashion of their shoes.
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fae_reborn

I agree with Nero, and I'd like to expand on what he said.

Patriarchy.  Modern Western Society is made up of men, for men, and by men.  Men rule everything just about.  Anyone who aspires to masculine qualities is admired as a supporter of this kind of society, and is revered for "being a good sheep" by upholding the social norm.  A woman in a suit is a perfect example, as she may be saying that she accepts masculinity, and in turn, accepts being dominated by a patriarchal society.

Feminine qualities, however, are despised.  They are seen as a threat to the system, and anyone exhibiting these qualities are shunned, attacked, harassed, and bullied back in line and forced to accept the social standard.  Therefore, a man dressing as a woman is seen as a threat, because it goes against the social norm and somehow "threatens" the patriarchal order of male dominance.

Men are valued.  A woman can act feminine, because that is accepted, but may not necessarily be valued.  However, if she dresses and acts as a man, she is honored.  Women are not valued, because in a patriarchal society they are seen as less than men.  Therefore, if a man acts as a woman, it is seen as an ultimate betrayal of the society, because he is rejecting his supposed masculinity.

Isn't Feminism fun?  ;D
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Stephanie

Quote from: Fae on July 23, 2009, 07:46:20 PM
I agree with Nero, and I'd like to expand on what he said.

Patriarchy.  Modern Western Society is made up of men, for men, and by men.  Men rule everything just about.  Anyone who aspires to masculine qualities is admired as a supporter of this kind of society, and is revered for "being a good sheep" by upholding the social norm.  A woman in a suit is a perfect example, as she may be saying that she accepts masculinity, and in turn, accepts being dominated by a patriarchal society.

Feminine qualities, however, are despised.  They are seen as a threat to the system, and anyone exhibiting these qualities are shunned, attacked, harassed, and bullied back in line and forced to accept the social standard.  Therefore, a man dressing as a woman is seen as a threat, because it goes against the social norm and somehow "threatens" the patriarchal order of male dominance.

Men are valued.  A woman can act feminine, because that is accepted, but may not necessarily be valued.  However, if she dresses and acts as a man, she is honored.  Women are not valued, because in a patriarchal society they are seen as less than men.  Therefore, if a man acts as a woman, it is seen as an ultimate betrayal of the society, because he is rejecting his supposed masculinity.

Isn't Feminism fun?  ;D


Excellent post Fae!

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Omika

Quote from: Fae on July 23, 2009, 07:46:20 PM
I agree with Nero, and I'd like to expand on what he said.

Patriarchy.  Modern Western Society is made up of men, for men, and by men.  Men rule everything just about.  Anyone who aspires to masculine qualities is admired as a supporter of this kind of society, and is revered for "being a good sheep" by upholding the social norm.  A woman in a suit is a perfect example, as she may be saying that she accepts masculinity, and in turn, accepts being dominated by a patriarchal society.

Feminine qualities, however, are despised.  They are seen as a threat to the system, and anyone exhibiting these qualities are shunned, attacked, harassed, and bullied back in line and forced to accept the social standard.  Therefore, a man dressing as a woman is seen as a threat, because it goes against the social norm and somehow "threatens" the patriarchal order of male dominance.

Men are valued.  A woman can act feminine, because that is accepted, but may not necessarily be valued.  However, if she dresses and acts as a man, she is honored.  Women are not valued, because in a patriarchal society they are seen as less than men.  Therefore, if a man acts as a woman, it is seen as an ultimate betrayal of the society, because he is rejecting his supposed masculinity.

Isn't Feminism fun?  ;D

I like what you said but something about it just doesn't sit well.

My mother picked up a hammer and nails when she was 22, back in the late 70s, just as the feminist movement was picking up serious steam and causing men everywhere to get pissed off.  She endured twenty years of BS, harassment, discrimination and discouragement in the face of a culture that was an absolute bastion of masculinity.  Now, for the past five years, she's been a coordinator and in upper management of the California carpenter's union.  She plays golf with the big shots.  She is one of very few women to be at that level in this country.

And despite being aggressive, strong willed, ambitious, tough and willing to get her hands dirty, she is still one of the most feminine women I have ever known.  Wears skirts to work, takes care of her hair and nails, is a total blonde sometimes, and has not once, throughout her entire career, sacrificed her femininity in the name of progress or ambition within a patriarchal structure.  She is very accepting and gentle, and completely ruthless when it comes to enforcing equality, good behavior and tolerance in the workplace (that being construction yards in this case).

Everyone is a mix of masculine and feminine traits.  I think the best of us take the most positive aspects from either side and make them our own.  I hope to be just like her someday, in my chosen field, which does happen to be completely dominated by men.  I want to see how high I can climb, compete with the men, and at the same time, be one-hundred percent woman.  Whether I'm wearing slacks or skirts.  Just depends on my mood.

Fire, determination and aggressiveness in defending principles does not make you a man.  Women, historically, have been some of the most ruthlessly violent and vicious rulers or warriors.  A female's tenacity in defending her home or her family is legendary, the brutality sometimes even becoming infamous.

Feminine energy is very powerful, and can be very, very intimidating to men.  So you're right... a woman just wearing suits and acting like a guy won't threaten men much.  But a woman wearing skirts and earrings and speaking with power and authority in her voice?  That scares the bejesus out of them, and makes them feel pretty threatened.  Feminism is too often associated with submission and weakness.  Incorrectly so.

Now, back on topic... the problem with men wearing women's clothing, well... it's just a matter of aesthetics, most of the time.  I've seen plenty of metrosexual guys who wear extremely feminine clothes (hell, just look at the fops of the 16th and 17th centuries) and command a lot of respect and confidence, in men and women.  I think the line gets drawn at skirts and heels.  Reason being, those were pretty much designed for the female form.  A guy wearing those just flat out doesn't look right.  Kilts and boots are another story, of course.

As far as I'm concerned, in this day and age, a man or woman can dress however they want, as long as they know how to dress.  As long as they are dressing well, and flattering their features, rather than just making some silly, rebellious statement.  No one is going to care overmuch.

On either line, bad dressers get mocked.  :P
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fae_reborn

Quote from: Stephanie on July 23, 2009, 09:16:47 PM
Excellent post Fae!

Thank you.  ;D

Quote from: Blair on July 24, 2009, 12:18:29 AM
My mother picked up a hammer and nails when she was 22, back in the late 70s, just as the feminist movement was picking up serious steam and causing men everywhere to get pissed off.  She endured twenty years of BS, harassment, discrimination and discouragement in the face of a culture that was an absolute bastion of masculinity.  Now, for the past five years, she's been a coordinator and in upper management of the California carpenter's union.  She plays golf with the big shots.  She is one of very few women to be at that level in this country.

And despite being aggressive, strong willed, ambitious, tough and willing to get her hands dirty, she is still one of the most feminine women I have ever known.  Wears skirts to work, takes care of her hair and nails, is a total blonde sometimes, and has not once, throughout her entire career, sacrificed her femininity in the name of progress or ambition within a patriarchal structure.  She is very accepting and gentle, and completely ruthless when it comes to enforcing equality, good behavior and tolerance in the workplace (that being construction yards in this case).

My hat off to your mother Blair, she seems like a very strong woman and has risen to a prominent position in her field.  My point was that some women will sacrifice their femininity to rise to power, but those who do not, like your mother, are role models for others that gender equality will one day be a reality.

Putting aside one's gender expression and personality, if a woman expresses any kind of confidence and exhibits authority, they are seen as a threat to the system.

Quote from: Blair on July 24, 2009, 12:18:29 AMFeminism is too often associated with submission and weakness.  Incorrectly so.

Since WHEN?!?  Feminism is about women standing up for their rights and questioning the status quo to make life better for all people. 

If that statement is a typo and you meant "femininity," then what you said is a negative stereotype which I despise, and therefore I would agree that it is incorrect.  However, if you did mean that feminism is associated with submission and weakness, please go and look up feminism in the dictionary, I'll bet you'll be pleasantly surprised.  ;)
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Omika

Quote from: Fae on July 24, 2009, 07:39:38 PM
Thank you.  ;D

My hat off to your mother Blair, she seems like a very strong woman and has risen to a prominent position in her field.  My point was that some women will sacrifice their femininity to rise to power, but those who do not, like your mother, are role models for others that gender equality will one day be a reality.

Putting aside one's gender expression and personality, if a woman expresses any kind of confidence and exhibits authority, they are seen as a threat to the system.

Since WHEN?!?  Feminism is about women standing up for their rights and questioning the status quo to make life better for all people. 

If that statement is a typo and you meant "femininity," then what you said is a negative stereotype which I despise, and therefore I would agree that it is incorrect.  However, if you did mean that feminism is associated with submission and weakness, please go and look up feminism in the dictionary, I'll bet you'll be pleasantly surprised.  ;)

Yeah, it was a typo.  I meant femininity.  XD

Feminism is often associated with aggressive, "kill all males" attitudes (also incorrectly...sometimes).
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fae_reborn

Quote from: Blair on July 25, 2009, 12:08:57 PM
Yeah, it was a typo.  I meant femininity.  XD

Feminism is often associated with aggressive, "kill all males" attitudes (also incorrectly...sometimes).

Ah, very well.  ;D

Yes, feminism is not always aggressive nor hostile towards the male gender.  There are varying types of feminism, and some are inclusive of men in solving the issues of patriarchal society to bring about equality for all genders.

But we're getting off topic here, so my apologies.
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