Is there any true enlightenment which science cannot measure?

[NicholeW.]

It's true that we can only perceive the world, and the readings of our scientific instruments, through the subjective interface of our senses. The problem with the strict "brain in a jar" view is that it forces us to abandon any further inquiry into the extrinsic.

I touch on this in my short post about the futility of the brain in a jar argument. As it is unknowable and self-defeating, it cannot add value to the growth of knowledge, so aside from noting it as a metaphysical & philosophical conundrum, it may as well be discarded.

Put simply, so what?

Merging two singularly separate positions, a duality (black, white, material, spiritual, please find others that appeal to you,) is always an fairly impossible position. Certainly if the dualists (or duelists) refuse to find some possibility of a compromise, an agreement to be able to set parameters that allow discussion.

Hmm, more than just a firm divide between two sexes or genders, for instance. The possibility that black and white intersect in some area that's a mix, grey? Or that ... we go on.

You can discard the brain-in-a-jug argument as the brain-in-a-jug arguers can deny the brain-that's-able-to-sense-objectively argument as well. Which would be usual, I think, in both cases.

Leaves you right back where your essay says their notion leaves the matter. "You cannot talk about that because you're not abiding by my rules." "But you're rules aren't my rules." and so on ad infintitum.

Of course there might be a way provided that, for instance, one group could find it within themselves to agree that as matter gets refined the separation of what we refer to as matter and spirit is that one is just the other more grossly defined (unrefined sugar or iron ore) and the other more subtlely defined (refined and powdered sugar or tungsten steel, etc.) And then the other makes that same agreement.

You're right, as long as either, or both, side/s refuses to recognize the possibility of discussion and finding something they can agree with and accept on the other pole there's no meeting of the positions, anywhere, ever.

There's a great gulf that separates us said Father Abraham to the Rich Man in the parable.

"Oh, well," said the Rich Man in Hell, "so it goes, I don't believe in you either."

People would rather hold a position than talk or meet.

...  I'll humbly concede to the multiple answers argument.

Sister!! twin sisters of different parents.

[finewine]

Yup I agree Nichole.  There are many philosophical questions which force us to consider alternatives that we might not normally entertain.  My big issue with BIAJ is simply that it's logically redundant.  On the plus side, we can use it as a good excuse to stop what must be ultimately impotent science...hehe, let's abandon all scientific inquiry and go chill on the beach with beers & spliffs!   Now who's for a wet t-shirt contest?

[NicholeW.]

Yup I agree Nichole.  There are many philosophical questions which force us to consider alternatives that we might not normally entertain.  My big issue with BIAJ is simply that it's logically redundant.  On the plus side, we can use it as a good excuse to stop what must be ultimately impotent science...hehe, let's abandon all scientific inquiry and go chill on the beach with beers & spliffs!   Now who's for a wet t-shirt contest?

What's logic except the way words are put together in an argument? It still requires an agreement -- that the rules of a particular way to put together words are used by all. Logic doesn't make something right or wrong, it provides an agreed context for talking about things in common.

Beer and wet t-shirts? Well, sir, that's a very material sort of pasttime!

Thought you'd never ask!

[tekla]

Hate to ruin that picnic girls, but I know lots of scientists who take the beer and green bud to the beach and do science, and talk science.  But we're geeks.  So the wet t-shirts are a keeper.

[finewine]

I can see it now, breaking away from the party to do a few sneaky M-theory equations on a chalk board hidden in the bushes!

"Hey, you!  Were you doing science back there!?"

[tekla]

Not to mention quadratic equations on the napkins.  Damn scientists.  And the tide pool?  Yeesh, don't even let them get near it.

[FairyGirl]

I can see it now, breaking away from the party to do a few sneaky M-theory equations on a chalk board hidden in the bushes!

"Hey, you!  Were you doing science back there!?"

no sir, we was philosophizin'. Pass the spliff please 

[NicholeW.]

Hate to ruin that picnic girls, but I know lots of scientists who take the beer and green bud to the beach and do science, and talk science.  But we're geeks.  So the wet t-shirts are a keeper.

Long ago and in a place far, far away, I'd go out on a Saturday and swim in a cold rushing river that was frequented in summer by all sorts of people in the small city I lived in.

I went to swim, but also to talk with a mathematician who'd bring his children out to swim while he'd read philosophy. Loved talking with him.

Wet bathing-suit, but seldom a wet t-shirt! Besides, his interest was the philosophy and mine was as well.

[finewine]

They'd all be transfixed at the tide pool, ruminating on the problem of chaos theory and predicting turbulent flow.  I love lava lamps!

[NicholeW.]

They'd all be transfixed at the tide pool, ruminating on the problem of chaos theory and predicting turbulent flow.  I love lava lamps!

Then forget the wet t-shirts! What would be the point? Like I said, dawgs!

[tekla]

Lava lamps and wet breasts go well together, ask any hippie.

[NicholeW.]

Lava lamps and wet breasts go well together, ask any hippie.

Must I re-quote? *sigh* I suppose I must:

It's easy enough to generate some feeling of bliss or lightness in a room full of people who are supposedly working spiritually. It's even easy to generate ecstasy. But a few beers, the right partner, and the Rolling Stones' music for an evening can do that too. -- Lee Lozowick

Just add "lava lamp" to that!

[finewine]

Mammaries are made of this
    - Dean Martin

[tekla]

Some people think having large breasts makes a woman stupid. Actually, it's quite the opposite: a woman having large breasts makes men stupid.

Rita Rudner

[NicholeW.]

Ah, cry havoc and let loose the dawgs of horn!

[finewine]

Me a dawg? Nay sister - pachyderm!   Us horny elephants say...  "Trunky wants a donut!"

[NicholeW.]

Me a dawg? Nay sister - pachyderm!   Us horny elephants say...  "Trunky wants a donut!"

Trunky says that to his girlfriend though, right?

[finewine]

Trunky says that to his girlfriend though, right?

Ooh yes, this is a one-donut trunk.  Only another 20 days and I'll be back there with her to submit her visa paperwork and for the breast augmentation op.  Yay!  I hope we won't have problems with the visa - I've been pretty thorough with our documentation but let's see.

(trunky misses her very much)

[lisagurl]

We agree on certain outcomes, and those are more or less what we call reality

Not when a reality does not depend on any humans. There are different types of reality.

[NicholeW.]

Not when a reality does not depend on any humans. There are different types of reality.

Whoa, Lisa. when a reality does not depend on any humans?

Now you have been mentioning quantum mechanics and observers changing with their observation "reality" -- at least the measurement of such things. And you've been right at least on a quanta-level.

What reality, in our world and for the purposes of this discussion "doesn't depend on humans?" I'm sorta at a loss on that.