False Prohpets and the Anti-Christ

[Julie Marie]

There seems to be a lot of documentaries on TV about God, Satan, religion and the end of the world.  I guess it makes good press.

While watching one I began to wonder why I so rarely hear someone call another person a false prophet and never the anti-Christ, at least not while they are alive.

David Koresh and Wayne Bent both left their 7th Day Adventist church and brought others from the congregation to join them in their new church.  Jim Jones left the Seventh Day Baptist Church to start the People's Temple.  Marshall Appewhite left the Presbyterian church to form what was eventually called Heaven's Gate.

While they were actively engaged in their individual "churches" I don't recall anyone calling them either a false prophet or anti-Christ.  Yet, I think a good argument can be made that Applewhite and Bent would be anti-Christs and Koresh and Jones false prophets.

The Bible has plenty of warnings about false prophets and anti-Christs but it really doesn't tell you how to spot one, at least not in today's terms.

What I look for is the answer to these questions:
1. Is the person self appointed?
2. What have they gained personally from being in a leader-type position?
3. Do the words they speak hurt others?
4. Do they claim to be a vehicle to Christ or God? (directly or indirectly)
5. Do they tell their followers how to live?

The self appointed religious leader who is rolling in dough, wields substantial power, demonized decent human beings and tells their followers their way is the right way is , in my book,a false prophet.  And if they claim to be the second coming they move up to the classification of anti-Christ.

Question #3 is a biggie in classifying them.  Anyone who claims to be a religious person and hurts others, directly or indirectly, is a phony.  And when they have been alerted to the fact their teachings are harming others but they continue anyway, well, that just proves the classification is accurate.

Look at all the self-appointed religious leaders who bash LGBT people.  Many are rich, powerful and use their position to get their following to do their dirty work... and of course, contribute to the cause.  They are today's false prophets.  Will anyone in the religious community out them?

Julie

[juliekins]

It would be nice if our critics just left us alone.

[Hazumu]

I can't find the article - I read it in the last week or two.

A former pentecostal minister wrote about how he had absolute power.  He could command his congregation to go out in front of the church right now and scream that satan was taking over -- and they'd do it!

He also said that those who were thoughtful, and introspective, and NOT blind followers, were driven out of the congregation by those who were.

If I find the article again, I'll post you the link.  It may help you in your search for resolution.

Karen

[Ellieka]

I can't find the article - I read it in the last week or two.

A former pentecostal minister wrote about how he had absolute power.  He could command his congregation to go out in front of the church right now and scream that satan was taking over -- and they'd do it!

He also said that those who were thoughtful, and introspective, and NOT blind followers, were driven out of the congregation by those who were.

If I find the article again, I'll post you the link.  It may help you in your search for resolution.

Karen

LOL! that Preacher is now a "she" and she is me.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,63984.msg422789.html#msg422789

I was very much a false profit and a hypocrite. I'm deeply ashamed for so many of the things I did "in the name of God."

Thank goodness I saw the light 

[Suzy]

Julie,

You might also be interested in looking at the story of William Miller.  It seems his teachings about the end times have had all kinds of dangerous ramifications.

I think Lord Acton said it best when he said that absolute power corrupts absolutely.  It does not matter if it be in a government, an organization, or  a church.  In general, religious systems that have no system of checks and balances are headed for trouble.

I do agree with where you are going in what you wrote, but I think your questions 3-5 need  little fleshing out.  Here is what I mean:

3. Do the words they speak hurt others?
Well sometimes the truth does hurt.  For instance, when we stand up to bigots it can be a painful thing to do for the speaker as well as the hearer.  However, if you mean that the leader's words inspire hatred, then yes.

4. Do they claim to be a vehicle to Christ or God? (directly or indirectly)
I am not quite sure what you mean by this.   Most ministers I know wish to be helpful in the quest of those who are seeking.  But if you mean that they are personally necessary, or their organization is necessary in order for a relationship with God to be established, then this is a huge red flag.  No human or human institution deserves the right to make that claim.

5. Do they tell their followers how to live?
Again, most religions, and by succession, religious leaders deal with real life and faith issues day in and day out.   For me, this line comes when a leader begins to dictate what and how to believe.  The best leaders IMHO teach people the tenets of the faith, but also teach people how to think and make decisions with integrity.  The Reformed branch of the church has a saying which I quite like:  "God alone is Lord of the conscience."

Oh and Julie, I do know of at least one religious leader who outs these kinds of people on a regular basis.  I think many more are simply ignorant (albeit willfully) of what is going on and are apathetic.  This, of course, is inexcusable.  But it is really unfortunate that hate sells.  And you see some big bucks being poured into it right now.

Kristi

[Julie Marie]

Kristi, to answer you simply I can just say we are totally on the same page.  In the cases I cited above, all of the "leaders" worked to gain control of their followers.  And they, to me, fall into one of the categories in the title.

I know of only one clergy member who I feel I know well enough to say I know her heart is good and I would give her absolute power because I know she would do the right thing.

Julie

[tekla]

Doesn't Jesus lay out exactly and precisely in pretty simple terms how this is done?  In Matthew:

:15  Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.   
7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?   
7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.   
7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.   
7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.   
"Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."
Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire."
7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.   "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father"
According to Jesus, calling on his name is not enough to get you into heaven. Both Peter and Paul disagree saying, "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21, Rom.10:13).
Will those who call on the Lord be delivered?
Who can cast out devils in the name of Jesus?
What must you do to be saved?

(7:23) BOM: Mosiah 26:27
7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.   
7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:   
7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

[Tammy Hope]

Concerning those in the mainstream church "calling out" false prophets - they absolutely do, at least in evangelical circles, IF they are aware of the person. the thing is guys like Applewhite and Jones are really nobodies UNTIL the disaster happens. Most evangelical pastors, I'm sure, never heard of heaven's Gate until they were found dead.

As for the Anti-Christ, some churches see him under every rock. i remember when I was a teenager hearing a preacher say (on the radio maybe) that REAGAN (!) was the Anti-Christ because the he had six letters in each of his names.


I also have a long and entertaining tale about a visit to a Pentecostal church of the sort Cami describes when I was a young man but it's too late to tell it all and probably entertains me more than it would you.

[tekla]

Most evangelical pastors, I'm sure, never heard of heaven's Gate until they were found dead.

I'm sure not all that many folk knew about David Koresh and the Branch Davidians until the feds surrounded them with a small army.  Most small cults, and there are lots and lots of them, are always under the radar.  They don't get much press, hardly any national, a scant amount local, or any real scrutiny.  People in SF sort of even heard of Jim Jones and the People's Temple, but they were only getting a PR gloss, not the real under-story. Even when you know, its hard to really say. You have to really be in it to 'know' and if your that far in, you're not 'knowing' anything but the party line.

And that only focuses on the 'big time' false prophets, and the major transgressors like Christian Science and others.  But what about the millions of minor false preachers and prophets who are just telling folk the wrong thing day in and day out?  How do you know them? 

I mean I've always wonder about the Mark Twain Question, if its right and proper for a Christian religion to pray for a solider?  On one hand its a 'religion of peace' who worships a 'prince of peace' often depicted as a lamb, who was never a solider, and in fact, was a pacifist.  One the other, you want god to protect members of your flock.  So hard call there.  But that's I think were you get the real majority of false prophets, not in the huge setting, but in the day to day stuff.

[Julie Marie]

Congressman Leo Ryan went to Jonestown because he was heavily implored to go by members of the cult's families.  He had no idea they were dangerous but he did know, from the stories given to him by family members, that this was no ordinary church.  Some claimed their family members were being held there against their will.  He and my dad talked about this just before he left.  There was at least some suspicion this was a cult.

A lot of family members, many of whom left these cults, tried to blow the whistle on the leaders but law enforcement wasn't quick to act.  In the case of Wayne Bent, after he was convicted he was freed on bail and sent back to the same compound where the under aged girls he slept with were.  And after seeing Jonestown and Heaven's Gate you'd think the judge would fear Bent might tell his followers, "This is the end" and encourage another mass suicide.  After all, he had already been saying the end of the world was near.  But the judge allowed the bail and allowed Bent to return to Strong City.

Sometimes law enforcement is overly cautious in acting upon reports of wrongdoing because it is a religious organization that is being cited.

Julie

[tekla]

Well yeah, the members of the families, those who really do know because they can see it up close implored Ryan to go, but nothing in the SF papers had been written about it being 'that bad' and there was no national coverage until the big ending, and wow, it was huge. I think that immediate family member have it very hard, the cults do kill of a person in some ways, yet its something no one wants to talk about.  And big time religion itself is partly to task, they don't like the cult stories either. 

[jainie marlena]

Good news is good news if it comes to you and it does not sound like good news to you may not be the good news. it is supposed to be good news to all men. if it don't appear good to all might be the wrong message. "Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world." If it is removed why thay say you have sin? the first thing sounds like good news to me the secound sounds like bad news. thay are trying to save sinners from sin by scaring them into believing that they are going to hell. what is good about that? from one view 90% of the world is going to hell. How is that good news? I think that they are selling God short in salvation. you would think that a God that love his creation would think bigger than that. would not God know how to restore his creation? I find believing in things (teachings) flaud because I can believe in anything even a lie so why would I want to trust that for myself.
Post Merge: July 26, 2010, 11:50:07 PM
believe in things come easy to a lot of people until you run across someone that don't believe in God. I was told that if thay don't believe in God they are an unbeliever. I believe that for sometime until I found out that God has "delt to everyone a measer of faith" well how can I say that an atheast is an unbeliever if the bible says that he or she has faith even if they don't even know it yet. I ask why you don't believe in God? the aswer was I don't think one way or the other about it. they don't believe in any God or gods godess and so on. there is nothing telling them one way or the other. This very importent information a God that don't want anyone to go to a place called hell has not said a word to them.
Post Merge: July 27, 2010, 01:04:13 AM
Ant-christ= against Christ. so working against the message of good news. so to say that he did not take away the sin of the world could be saying that is ant-christ. So, if unbelief is sin than taking it away from the world would mean?  hummm. given a measer of faith. some people bear grain that has not been touched by God. Is he saving them for something?