Disappointed

[Kara]

I wrote this yesterday on paper and got around to putting it in my blog today. I've had a horrible weekend....

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Today, I went to a church function on a Saturday for the purpose of talking to the pastor of the church so that he could in turn talk with my dad to make my dad more accepting of the change I'm going through. Instead, the pastor tried to convince me that I need to become closer to God. This in itself I did not mind, but the pastor seemed to be of the opinion that my transitioning was not the way that I'm going to make myself happy. I didn't have the words to explain to him why I felt the need to transition; my argument boiled down to: "this is what I want." The pastor then equated that with having a material desire which would only be a stop-gap measure against my own problems.

I posed what I've come to think of as a very interesting and valid question. Does God allow people to sin in order that the believers might be less tempted by such behavior? Does God allow sinful behavior on Earth so that people who believe in him might then know what to do? The pastor's answer to me was: no, you have to follow God's will. Yet if I am to believe that God is in control of everything, how do I know that this (my transition) is already the case? My question was not intended to provide a blank check for bad behavior, merely to try and ascertain whether or not my transitioning might go with God's will or against it. I could not seem to get a definite answer and the preacher wasn't very convincing on this point.

He also seemed to believe that I had a problem with myself that caused my desire to transition, which in my case, isn't so. I tried to explain this to him, but he didn't believe me. My experience appears to be unique among transsexuals in that I could live with myself as my birth gender- male- if I had to. At least, that's how I feel at present. One of the things that I sometimes worry about is whether or not the imperative to transition will get stronger as I grow older and I'll end up as a 50-something male transitioning. I'd like to avoid that if possible. To me, the sooner I can do it, the better.

Another thing to mention- the pastor immediately associated my transition with homosexuality. In fact, I had to explain to him that I have yet to define my sexuality and this by itself struck me as odd given that he said he had dealt with transsexuals before who regretted having made their transition. On the ride back, my dad said that he had approached the pastor as well and found out 90% of the people who had transitioned and spoken to this particular pastor had regretted it.

There are two different ways to spin this number. First, if it may be said that if such a number is an average for everyone, then 9 million out of 10 million people were unhappy while 1 million were satisfied. It may also be said that anyone who approaches a pastor to begin with has had either a religious background or a desire for religious experiences. As such, is it not possible that those 90% were convinced they had gone against what God wanted for them? A more accurate figure might be arrived at by people who have transitioned but did not speak to any pastor, or who might be of some other faith besides Christianity.

All in all, my purpose during the interview was defeated. How can a pastor help my father accept it if he himself does not? Moreover, I was also a little dismayed at how many conclusions he jumped to and how often he talked while I remained silent. I have a tendency to listen rather than expostulate and I often find that I don't put my own opinions in unless I make myself forceful. I'm starting to feel dismayed about seeking advice from anyone of a religious bent. They seem to have a number of pre-conceived notions that get in their way. I wonder what would have happened if he had given that same speech to someone who was feeling suicidal? The only thing that is giving them hope is suddenly...wrong? Is it really all right to remove a positive influence from someone's life so abruptly?

I must admit to feeling depressed and disappointed. While the urge to transition in me is not overwhelming, it has been a quiet source of hope for me in the last few months. I can tell myself: this is what I have to look forward to, things will get better. I feel that transitioning brings me closer to who I really am- which is the central point. I have more of a problem with who I'm not than who I am today.

[Nicky]

I don't really get what a pastor, with no real qualifications to 'judge' transgendered people, would talk to your dad about? - I guess if your dad really trusts his opinion.... How does this pastor know what God intends in relation to transgender people when there really is no guide in this regard? (the bible is rather silent on the topic though open to interpretation...we have to remember that gender and sexual relations as we know it now was not how it was seen in biblical times so we have very different reference points)

Firstly don't pay any attention to the numbers. I would have regretted talking to the pastor too - if your church is important to your life, a central point, and then that same church says you are wrong, then that has got to be hard. Also the Pastor has an agenda so it is in his interests to fudge the numbers (and just how many transgender people has he talked to? even 10 is a rather big number).

The other thing to think about is while you might be able to still live as male, is that much of a life? If you can have a good life regardless then maybe it is not worth it, but then you also talked about transition being a source of hope. That says to me that living as a male is pretty distressing for you.

If you believe in god then you will know that god gave humans 'free choice'. What you choose to do is not what god decides. Maybe the question to ask is why would God care about what you have between your legs? When you think about it that way it seems silly to even worry about it. What does your hormones and physical body have to do with your personal relationship with your god? It does affect your relationship with your church, but church is not god.

[CodyJess]

I can relate with the "I could live with myself as my birth gender... if I had to." At least, I think I could live with myself like this; that might change at some point in the future. (Sort of a scary thought.)

In my experience, more people from a religious background are closed-minded than from a religion-free or anti-religion background. It doesn't surprise me that this pastor equated trans-sexuality with homo-sexuality; many individuals are exposed to gay and lesbian people; not so much to trans-gendered people. Also worth pointing out, is that even if he has talked to 'a lot' of regretful trans-people, that doesn't necessarily mean he's educated on gender issues (outside of a religious scope).

Certainly not as educated as someone like, say, a gender therapist. Which, if you're hoping to educate your father and help him accept you and your choices, would be worth looking into.

If the hope of transition is the hope you have, then don't let him take that away from you. 

[Randy]

Maybe I'm just being cynical, but I wonder why you thought that a Christian pastor would approve of your transition? I really do hate to say it like that, being a Christian myself, but it's reality. Maybe you could seek out a more LGBT inclusive church? Though I doubt that your father would give it enough credit to actually believe anything they say...

It may also be said that anyone who approaches a pastor to begin with has had either a religious background or a desire for religious experiences. As such, is it not possible that those 90% were convinced they had gone against what God wanted for them? A more accurate figure might be arrived at by people who have transitioned but did not speak to any pastor, or who might be of some other faith besides Christianity.

My thoughts exactly. They probably wouldn't be discussing it with him if they didn't have some doubts about it religiously, and he probably makes them worse. Transition isn't for everyone, but for most people who benefit from it, it's the obvious solution (and oftentimes ones that's taken years of consideration to reach). You're MTF, right? Estrogen changes are far more reversible than are changes from Testosterone. If you find it isn't for you, you could just stop.

[Kara]

You know, going in, I had this odd idea that he would be tolerant of my choice. That he might disagree with it, but he would say, "This is what I think, but you're free to make your own choice."

Apparently, God gives people free will only so that they are forced into doing certain things.

I must admit, I'm really turned off to the idea of religion right now. So much so that I may never set foot into a church again.

[Julie Marie]

No one really knows God's will.  NO ONE!  Many make assumptions based on reading the Bible or being conditioned to believe certain things but no one on the face of this Earth knows God's will.  And if someone says they do ask them to prove it to you.  They won't be able to.

So, given that fact, it's a waste of time to listen to anyone who uses the God's will thing to support their own beliefs.  All it really is is a way of avoiding telling you they are intolerant or prejudiced and cannot accept that people can be different and still be decent human beings.

Julie

[finewine]

Another thing to mention- the pastor immediately associated my transition with homosexuality [...]

Which is unsurprising, as that's the almost universally held view by the cisgendered majority who don't know any better (myself included before I actually met a trans person).

[tekla]

Oh I'm all for religion when its giving me the answers I want, but when I don't like the answers, forget it.  That's hardly faith.  You wanted to use them to make your point for you, you're going to find you'll have to make it by yourself.

[Hannah]

You are really asking for trouble Kara.

A pastor...what were you thinking? This is your life you're fooling around with dear, why are you actively courting drama in it? If you go around throwing your issues in people's faces, you aren't going to like their probable reactions. I mean...a pastor? Were you aware they used to burn people alive and other charming things?

A psychologist would have been a better choice, and it's still one you could make if you think you have any chance with your dad. Going to his church and in his eyes embarassing him will not endear you to him, and it's not going to make him accept you any more. Sure the way people are treating you is wrong, but you need to meet them half way dear.

[Kara]

You are really asking for trouble Kara.

A pastor...what were you thinking? This is your life you're fooling around with dear, why are you actively courting drama in it? If you go around throwing your issues in people's faces, you aren't going to like their probable reactions. I mean...a pastor? Were you aware they used to burn people alive and other charming things?

A psychologist would have been a better choice, and it's still one you could make if you think you have any chance with your dad. Going to his church and in his eyes embarassing him will not endear you to him, and it's not going to make him accept you any more. Sure the way people are treating you is wrong, but you need to meet them half way dear.

I think you might have misunderstood. I wasn't "embarrassing" him. In fact, I specifically requested that we have our chat behind closed doors so that he didn't feel uncomfortable talking in front of a group. I was also willing to entertain the possibility that he was an enlightened man of faith. But I was wrong on that one.

It looks like I'm going to be alone on this one, which is just about the way I started. The only thing I've learned so far is that you can't trust anyone who says they believe in God. It's like....they get a mental block when it comes to logic.

[Renate]

... found out 90% of the people who had transitioned and spoken to this particular pastor had regretted it.

I've transitioned and I think that if I spoke to this pastor, I'd regret it.
That is, speaking with him.

[K8]

From the beginning my minister was one of my biggest supporters, so I don't know that you can paint with too broad of a brush.  (She also has transgendered ministerial colleagues with whom she is friends, so she had a certain amount of knowledge and interest before I approached her.)

I think the confusion of orientation and identity is common outside the LGBT community.  My sister confused them until I cleared it up for her.  I've also run into confusion between cross-dressing and cross-gendered.  This is all stuff outside what most people are familiar with.  Gentle education is helpful if they are open to receiving it.

It is good to listen, but sometimes you need to speak up, respectfully and reasonably, when someone is off track.  Unfortunately, many of us have lost the willingness to debate, so the other person may not be receptive to you presenting your own arguments.

Pastors are human and bring their prejudices and failings with them.  You hope that they will be more open to the variety we humans come in, but that isn't always the case.  Still, it's frustrating to lead a good life and be told you are a bad person.

I wouldn't lend much credence to the 90% number.  For one thing, your pastor shuts out anyone who is not repentant for being gay or trans, so his sample is badly skewed.

Like you, Kara, I think I could have lived my life as the male I was born if I had to.  It all depends on you.  I was presented with an opportunity to transition and took it.  I've never been happier.  (Transitioning as an older person has certain advantages.)  Don't try to force yourself into an artificial timetable.  Do what you feel is right for you. 

- Kate