Can Someone Please Explain This To Me?

[Julie Marie]

I'm being serious. I really don't understand this.  So, if there is anyone who does understand it, can you explain how something like this happens?

Last night I saw this documentary on TV.  It was about Wayne Bent, a former 7th Day Adventist who left his church and started one of his own.  One day "god came to me and told me I was the Messiah."  His followers accepted this.

Those who followed him to Strong City, NM were told they could not have sex with anyone but him.  In the process women left their husbands (the husbands stayed in the group anyway) and became one of Wayne's "virgins".  The guy even went so far as to have naked sleep-ins with underage girls. One girl, who was about 16, said she was ecstatic because she slept with "the son of God".

But splitting up marriages, some over 30 years old, and "consummating" with other women wasn't enough for Wayne Bent.  He had to take it so far as to "consummate" with his son's wife. And his son, although suffering from this, accepted his dad having sex with his wife.  The reason was "God made me do it".

Did this guy take a page out of Flip Wilson's act?

Wayne Bent (Google him) was finally taken into custody for having sex with a minor and contributing to the delinquency of a minor, accused, tried and convicted or three out of four counts and sentenced to ten years in jail.

BUT!!!! His followers, including his son, were still supportive of him.  They viewed him as Jesus being tried by his persecutors.  What was scary to me was the look in the eyes of his followers.  It reminded me of the Manson girls.  And Bent's eyes reminded me of Manson himself.

So, what I just don't get is how can people be so easily duped?  How can normally decent people turn their backs on child molestation?  How can these same people sit back and watch a predator take their wives?  How can a son sit back and not tell his dad "You can't have sex with my wife!"?

I heard, while growing up, you have to have faith.  These people had faith and look what happened to them.  And it could have easily been a Heaven's Gate or Waco incident had there not been family intervention and media coverage.

How can anyone give everything to another human being?

I just don't get it.

Julie

[K8]

I have faith in a number of things, particularly my own reason and abilities.  I'm with you in that I don't think I would ever fall for this. 

Some people, however, are willing to cede their own thought processes to others.  You can see it all around you.  It's an extreme version of the Strong Father system, where one person - the father, the boss, the president, the talk-show host, the spiritual leader, the [fill in the blank] - claims to have The Truth.  People too lazy or unsure of themselves to trust their own reason follow, glad to have someone lead them so that they don't have to do the hard work of thinking for themselves.

I would suppose that it is a gradual thing, where the demands of the leader get ever more bizarre but the followers don't notice the gradual destruction of their selves, gradually selling their souls to The Leader.

Or so it seems to someone on the outside looking in.  I'm sure there have been studies of this which may or may not have come up with the same conclusions I do.

Trust yourself and to thine own self be true.

- Kate

[Janet_Girl]

A faith of the weak-minded.  Does Jonestown or Waco ring any bells?  Some people need to be lead like sheep.

Just my 2 cents

Janet

[tekla]

The only difference between this and other religions is he's in jail, and the other are revered.

How can normally decent people turn their backs on child molestation?
Oh I don't know, why not ask any number of religious folk, starting with the Catholic Church and Jim Bakker. Or the sects of the LDS that practice this. 

How can anyone give everything to another human being?
Or a mere human institution? 

[Hazumu]

Julie;

Try reading The Authoritarians. (The link leads to a 1.4MB PDF of Prof. Bob Altemeyer's book.)

What you saw in the documentary on Wayne Bent is an extreme form of Right Wing Authoritarianism.

Psychologically these followers have personalities featuring:
1) a high degree of submission to the established, legitimate authorities in their society;
2) high levels of aggression in the name of their authorities; and
3) a high level of conventionalism.

Wayne's followers needed an established, legitimate authority.  Who better than the next coming of Christ?

Over the years I've come to realise that there are people who are immune to rationality.  In the world in which they live, magic and demons exist.  And you can't make them see the rational world.  I had a very faith-full woman once tell me that wind proved the existence of God, for you couldn't see it, but you could feel its effect.  The existence of scientific instruments that could make the wind visible, much less smoke rising from a bonfire, could not convince her otherwise, and we studiously avoided one another after that encounter.

Sadly, when enough people are searching for an authoritarian leader, another Wayne Bent will appear.

Karen

[tekla]

I think in times of great flux this is often a comfort.  There is a reason that most of this is a rejection of modernity for the most part.

And as long as we're all on the book list, I'd suggest
The True Believer, by Eric Hoffer

Among Hoffer's insights about mass movements was that they are an outlet for people whose individual significance is meager in the eyes of the world and -- more important -- in their own eyes. He pointed out that the leaders of the Nazi movement were men whose artistic and intellectual aspirations were wholly frustrated.

Hoffer said: "The less justified a man is in claiming excellence for his own self, the more ready he is to claim all excellence for his nation, his religion, his race or his holy cause."

People who are fulfilled in their own lives and careers are not the ones attracted to mass movements: "A man is likely to mind his own business when it is worth minding," Hoffer said. "When it is not, he takes his mind off his own meaningless affairs by minding other people's business."
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2868

[Julie Marie]

What was so scary to me was the look in the eyes of the women, and at times the kids, while they were in Bent's presence.  There was hardly even a blink.  They were so absorbed and believing he was the Messiah.

I knew Leo Ryan, the congressman who was killed at Jonestown.  When the news of his death reached us, it was the first time I had personally felt what too many families already knew.  Watching this documentary brought back a lot of memories.

What scares me is how many people have given themselves without question and ended up dying in the process.

When I walked away I asked myself, "How far is it from fundamentalist Christian belief to cult-like following?"  From what I saw, not very far.

Julie

[tekla]

Any sort of belief in the supernatural, in a 'reward beyond this life', on things you must 'take on faith' is treading dangerous waters to start with.  I do a big Xian show from time to time called Acquire the Fire/Battle Cry - which teaches that you can't "trust your heart, trust your mind, or trust your experiences" (for sure on that, I've had to work though endless rehearsals) and that's getting into very scary territory.

[Ellieka]

Just my personal observations here. When I was a minister in the Pentecostal church I found that most people in the congregation were extremely simple minded. I could stand at the pulpit and say "God told me to have every join me on the street right now and scream at the top of you lungs 'Satan is after your children!' " And 98% of them would. I could say, "God says jump!" and they'd jump I could say "Speak in tongues!" and they'd do it. The ones that wouldn't were seen as rebellious and full of the devil. Why? Because I was put in a position of "holy" authority. To doubt my words were in fact from God was unthinkable.

Even the other ministers and deacons in the church would do as "God" commanded through me. I would do the same for a time because even if I didn't feel what was being asked was truly from God I wanted to be seen as sensitive to Gods direction.

Those few that could see the fallacy of it all were cast out and shunned. Ironically those that were excommunicated were the ones that had a more astute mind. Two that stick out in my mind were a pharmacist and History professor. They left the church shortly before I did siting many of the same reasons that I was thinking about leaving over.

It was also my observation that those with sharper minds that chose to stay in the church were always in a position of power and respect and I personally caught more then a few of them in very compromising situations.

Organized religion is mostly about control for the leaders and ignorance or fear on behalf of the congregation. That's not to say that there are some very sincere believers and ministers but by and large it's a power dynamic.         

[Cindy]

I am always amazed at the desire of many people to give up their free will for that of an authority. We do it in politics, but very much so in religion. Fundamentalist religion of any sort scares the holy crap out of me. The blind acceptance people have in authoritarian leadership is common to all of us however. When we are in crisis, due to crime or fire etc, we willingly give over our free will to be led by the police or fire rescue people. In the health system we willingly give up control of our bodies to someone who says they are a Doctor. Rightly so in many cases. But is this the same thing? From Cami's post it would appear to be: "normal" people want to be led, others feed on them.
I'm also a little suprised how easy it is to set up a religion. "Ah, Goodday" "God's just visited me, we had a coffee and I've been told to start a religion were I get to f**k who I want, when I want and you give me 50% of your income as well"  "Sorry about that, us Messiahs have a tough life,but someone's got to do it." "Praise the lord and show me your tits."

Scary

Cindy,
BTW I just had a vistation. If all MtF send me $50, (only $50 )God has given me the ability to correct your sex defect. Only $50! "praise the lord and pass the scissors"

[K8]

When we are in crisis, due to crime or fire etc, we willingly give over our free will to be led by the police or fire rescue people. In the health system we willingly give up control of our bodies to someone who says they are a Doctor. Rightly so in many cases. But is this the same thing?

We follow the direction of those trained to deal with a situation.  That's different from vesting all authority in another person. 

In the military I was trained to follow orders but also to use my judgement as to whether those orders were "lawful".  (I also understood that following military orders may sometimes go against my individual best interests but would be for the good of the whole.  I learned to use judgement while following orders, if that makes sense. )

I have an excellent relationship with my doctor because I trust his knowledge and skill but offer insights and ask questions.  He is "an authority" but not "the authority".  He likes that I ask questions and try to fit his knowledge into my needs.

What you write, Cami, is chilling, but a lot of it has to do with group dynamics, too.  Too often people do things they wouldn't ordinarily do becasuse they are trying to fit into the group.  If the rest of the group appears to be going along with something, they will too so that they don't stick out.  Besides giving authority to The Leader, they are giving it to the group, too.

Be strong and prosper,
Kate

[Julie Marie]

I was raised Roman Catholic and when I was growing up I heard a lot of stories from the Bible. What disturbed me was how often there was death and destruction in the stories. I knew, even at an early age, this was intended to instill fear in me. If I don't follow my marching orders, horrible things will happen to me.  I left the Church at the tender age of 14.

It seems these people who blindly follow cult leaders are so fearful of the "wrath of God" that they will give of themselves completely.  In the case of the Wayne Trent cult, the followers ignored things that anyone would know are wrong because Trent told them it was God's will.  In the court testimony he was asked why he didn't stop these underage girls from removing their clothes and getting into bed with him.  He said it was not his place to tell anyone what to do, that we must each follow the direction we are given from God.  But when a teenage boy challenged Trent, Trent asked him to leave the compound and never return. 

The show touched on David Koresh and mentioned how he too directed his followers to obey his orders because it was God's will.  It is one of the tactics cult leaders use in controlling their flock.

I wonder if we told the LDS church or people like Jim Dobson that we are following God's will by being trans, would they stop demonizing us? 

Julie

[lisagurl]

People want to believe in something other than themselves.

[Miniar]

It's the same reason that people see Jesus in the grain of the doors, or the last supper (like da vinci "envisioned" it) in the clouds.
It's not just that we need to believe in more than ourselves, but because we find meaning in being a part of something greater than ourselves.
It's the desire to experience something incredible, magical, special.
We don't just want to believe, we want to know that we're right to believe, and so.. we seek out "Proof".
If we see a man who tells us he's the messiah, Jesus reborn, or whatever, and he smiles at us, calls us his children, and offers us a connection with god, it's easy for us, even if we're rational, intelligent people, to be so enamored with the thought that we can be allowed a physical touch representing the love of god, that we can be taken in.

Ofcourse the knots in the grain of the door are just knots, and not the eyes of Jesus, but that doesn't stop us from wanting to see eyes.

Sometimes I feel a little touch of envy for those that see magic in the world. I want to see the magic too. I want to be amazed and all that. But when I look at the door, I just see knots in the grain of the wood.

[Maebh]

I think in times of great flux this is often a comfort.  There is a reason that most of this is a rejection of modernity for the most part.

And as long as we're all on the book list, I'd suggest
The True Believer, by Eric Hoffer

Among Hoffer's insights about mass movements was that they are an outlet for people whose individual significance is meager in the eyes of the world and -- more important -- in their own eyes. He pointed out that the leaders of the Nazi movement were men whose artistic and intellectual aspirations were wholly frustrated.

Hoffer said: "The less justified a man is in claiming excellence for his own self, the more ready he is to claim all excellence for his nation, his religion, his race or his holy cause."

People who are fulfilled in their own lives and careers are not the ones attracted to mass movements: "A man is likely to mind his own business when it is worth minding," Hoffer said. "When it is not, he takes his mind off his own meaningless affairs by minding other people's business."
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2868

Very true and insightful.

After the first world war the German people were humiliated and their economy was plundered by the allies in the name of war reparations. Then Hitler came along and offered them the Jews as a scapegoat for all their troubles and hope in a glorious thousand year Reich where they could reclaim their pride.
Luckily this very costly lesson was learned. After the second world war the Marshall plan for economic recovery and the vision offered by the Shumann declaration, on the project of a Peaceful, Prosperous, Independant and United Europe, together with the creation of the European Coal & Steel Community were the first steps which made sure that the same mistakes weren't repeated.

HLL&R

Maebh

See also "Masse und Macht" (Crowds and Power) by Nobel Price Laureate Elias Canetti
http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/ecanetti.htm
http://www.sheilaomalley.com/archives/003746.html

[Sandy]

I wonder if we told the LDS church or people like Jim Dobson that we are following God's will by being trans, would they stop demonizing us? 

Julie

Nope.

I've had actually reasonable conversations (i.e. not strident yelling) with an evangelical who acknowledged that what I was doing was right (for me) because it kept me from killing myself and that is a greater sin.  He however maintained that comforting words and feelings is precisely how satan works his evil and that I could very well in for some deep punishment when I die.

He was astounded when I said that if I have to pay for eternity in order to finally be at peace now then it is worth the price.  And encouraged me to read the bible (again) to find the true answer to my problems.

In other words we agreed to disagree.  Though he was unique in this.

Most blind followers of such extreme religious doctrines are looking to find a book of rules.  Something or someone to take away responsibility from themselves for having to decide what is right and wrong.  Most other spiritual seekers are just that.  Open and accepting of everyone.  They *seek*, they do not follow. 

-Sandy

[Julie Marie]

I just realized, Sandy, that by asking that question of someone who does not approve of us we would be giving them the power to determine if we are doing the right thing or not.

There's a common thread in most religious organizations regarding repenting.  No matter what you do, as long as you see the error of your ways and repent, you will be forgiven and invited back into the fold.  Since most of us are not going to repent for being trans and abandon our quest to make the world understand, we cannot be forgiven and will not be accepted.  It's a pretty manipulative response.

Still, I think it's worth a try to use the "god's will" excuse and see how it flies.  And if we get the response you predicted we can ask them back how do they know they aren't the ones under satan's control?  After all, they are the ones rejecting and demonizing God's creation.

Julie

[K8]

I wonder if we told the LDS church or people like Jim Dobson that we are following God's will by being trans, would they stop demonizing us? 

I prepared a response for my "Christian" neighbor but didn't have to use it:

Perhaps God made me a woman but gave me a man's body to test me somehow.  And perhaps I passed that test because now He has opened doors for me to finally be the woman He originally intended me to be.

I don't know how well this would fly.

Most blind followers of such extreme religious doctrines are looking to find a book of rules.  Something or someone to take away responsibility from themselves for having to decide what is right and wrong.

It is much easier to follow set rules than to try to figure it out for yourself.  Or, as Dostoevsky said: "Man is tormented by no greater anxiety than to find someone quickly to whom he can hand over that great gift of freedom with which the ill-fated creature is born."

Most other spiritual seekers are just that.  Open and accepting of everyone.  They *seek*, they do not follow.

And the benefit is in the seeking.  Which brings up another quote: "It is good to have an end to journey toward, but it is the journey that matters in the end." - Ursula K. Le Guin


- Kate

[Alyssa M.]

Wow, Cami, I had forgotten about that. You posted on my thread about my experience with my church, and I didn't totally understand the context.

If I may step up onto the soapbox for a minute, I have a point about "organized religion" that came to me from a friend who had worked in various government agencies and knew a little bit about organizations:

I think that there is sometimes a misunderstanding when people talk about organized religion. Human organizations have two basic kinds of structure: either the core is there to serve the periphery, or the periphery is there to serve the core. The first kind is good; the second is evil. (The military is of the second kind, and redeems itself only if it is used as part of a government to serve the citizens; i.e., that it is an element of an organization of the first type.) Most organizations have some mix of the two, and religious organizations are no exception.

In other words, whether religion is "organized" or not does not have much bearing on whether it is stifling and destructive; the question is how it is organized.

--

Kate, if you haven't seen/read/heard Calpernia Addams's monologue, "Homespun," you really should:

Yeah, Mom, I know God didn't give me a vagina. That's why I'm gonna make my own."

[heatherrose]

I started to write a post in response to your question,

"Can Someone Please Explain This To Me?"

By the time I finished, if I posted it here it might have
hijacked your thread. So if you care to read what my
answer to your question, turned into, I posted it here:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,64150.msg424212.html#msg424212