Arizona Pastor calls for execution of gays.

[V M]

Didn't phase me a bit. I had a friend in San Diego that could turn any conversation about anything into a Bush and religion rant. Plus I had to work with the guy 

[Alyssa M.]

You'll find the penalities all laid out in either Leviticus or Deuteronomy in the Pentateuch. They are located near the ones that also demand redress for those wearing blended fabric clothing and those who eat shellfish.

I don't think god was all that down on hate-mongering though. Don't recall any penalities demanded for hating someone else. In fact, given a few of god's commands about slaughtering Amalekites and Gibeonites and various other folk, one might presume that god was positively ardently in-favor of hatred.

Since you brought this up, I'll respond to your post. (But take this as a response to the ideas in general.)

First, let's look at where the Levitical code came about. Back then, the penalty for murder was not just death, but death to the family of the murderer as well. You see how this gets out of hand; and yet it is the way humans operate. The revenge impulse always outweighs the initial harm. So "an eye for an eye" is a major improvement on that pretty terribe scheme. Much of religious law has a similar liberal spirit that gets corrupted blind orthopraxy. You might recall a later episode in the Bible where God rails against the keepers of the law, the Pharisees. An obvious example of religious laws meant to liberalize society becoming repressive with a change in society and a conservative take on society is Islamic law regarding women. Those laws were initially intended to protect women from violence. Levitical law tends to be similar, just much older.

Second, what do you have against codes as to how you live? I know plenty of people who keep to plenty of different codes; some won't wear polyester, some won't wear leather, some won't eat meat, etc. Keeping kosher isn't that much different. It's a way to keep healthy and develop a culture.

As to the later parts of Hebrew scripture, yeah, it's violent, and there are some reasons for that. Mostly because it amounts to a history book from before history was even remotely intended to be objective. You will see similar stories in many cultures. Ask a Hopi or Ute or Zuni about their stories regarding the Navajo; or vice versa. Sick stuff. But honest, and that's the point, to me. If you read a little farther in the Bible, to the part about Jesus, it gets rather less militant. Oh, and that part about "an eye for an eye" gets amended too.

But you knew this, right?

--

Regarding the initial post:

This Pastor seems to be "Baptist" in the same sense that Fred Phelps is "Baptist" -- i.e., he claims the name, and might come from an SBC background (not that I'm a big fan of SBC), but he's gone off to create a little evil personality cult. Even among rather awfully conservative Christians who won't abide anything remotely queer, I don't think you'll find many who would identify with this guy's views. It's a little like taking a statement from Osama bin Laden as representing Islam.

Perhaps this guy isn't quite that bad -- I'm not terribly interested in researching him -- maybe he's just a hothead who shoots of at the mouth (but he sounds worse than that). But he is hardly representative of the mainstream leadership in the U.S. Try to imagine a Catholic bishop saying that kind of stuff. It just doesn't happen.

[Jamie-o]

What part of "Thou Shalt Not Kill" do extreme Christians find so hard to understand?   

I mean, aside from the fact that the same book that lays this out as one of the 10 absolute laws of God, is also one of the bloodiest, most violent, most completely self-contradictory books in existence. 

That being said, I really don't think it's Christianity, per se, that is the problem.  It's the Christian extremists, along with all the other religious zealots in the world, who are the problem.  It's when faith in somebody's interpretation of scripture becomes more important than one's own abilities to think logically and to interact with compassion, that spirituality takes a dark and evil turn.

I've always said that, if I were the Devil, I would create religions based on common beliefs of the day, but infused with hatred and self-righteousness.  After all, what would be more supremely blasphemous than to trick people into doing the Devil's work in the name of God?

[NicholeW.]

...

But you knew this, right? ...

Of course not, Alyssa.

I usually always wait on you to bring knowledge to me.

You're certainly allowed to live under Levitical law if you wish.

In your peroration I think you miss the idea that if one wishes one can always keep a 3000 + year-old desert bedouin law if one wishes. No harm in that at all. I think what you miss in your zeal is that if one is going to bandy such legal precedent as the one he uses about gays as "god's law" then perhaps it makes more sense to keep kosher and to wear non-blended clothing and to keep the rest of that law as well.

Afterall, if god said it, ... no? 

[Suzy]

Back to the original topic, this "pastor" (using that term in this case turns my stomach) needs to understand that because of his remarks, he should not be surprised or appalled when Arizona gays call for his execution.  Funny how that works.  I just hope someone has the guts to step in and put a halt to this cycle of idiocy. 

Kristi

[tekla]

I just hope someone has the guts to step in and put a halt to this cycle of idiocy

Well, the 'lets not respond to them' had kinda almost worked, but they they all got up a frothing that the mouth again having lost control of America because of some sort of conspiracy, but yeah, the way they counted votes in Florida for Bush was sure all above board, but this time unknown forces, aided by a demonic, yet also largely unknown, Liberal Media, have conspired to take away their guns under a heath care policy deal (guns are unhealthy after all, at some point, so that kinda makes sense) that will never work because the government can't ever do anything right and it would be all like the DMV except that the government is some all powerful deal that is sweeping down and its like huge and incompetent at the same time - and damn it, its time for Biblical Justice.  And though we can't do anything about the forces of real oppression, then let us take out vengeance on an old standby, the gays.  Of course our anti-black deal is simmering right there under the surface too. 

He's just trying to make religion all meaningful for his followers, ain't that a happy thought.

[Julie Marie]

And I thought the ancestors of these people who came to this country to escape religious persecution wanted this country to always be free of religious persecution.  Guess I was wrong.

Now, when and where will the executions take place?  Do I get a number?  I'll need to get my hair and nails done first!

Julie

[tekla]

Yeah, but were a very long way from the people who were here in the beginning, its been a very long 200+ years, lots of changes.  The people who were escaping religious persecution never put with with public homosexuality either.

[Julie Marie]

If you can live by a book that is 2000 years old, you can live by a document that is 200 years old.

[tekla]

Well the document is a lot easier to follow for the most part.  Very simple, but its not as much fun as the book.

[MaggieB]

The pastor is simply mouthing the views of many of the church's followers. I agree that not all Christians are evil. I was a devout fundamentalist Christian in my past and was in leadership position in the church.  I taught a Bible study class.  What was also rampant in our main stream congregation was a regular discussion of the homosexuals trying to take over the church.  They were viewed as servants of Satan and had to be stopped.  Now none advocated violence nor did I but I can tell you that the fear was so intense that if someone was to spark a conflict, I cannot imagine what might have happened but it would not have been good.

The majority of Christians that I have known are Sunday believers.  They get very pious on Sunday but the rest of the time, they don't factor in the teachings of Jesus much at all.  I was deeply concerned about this when I was leading the congregation in prayer or responsive readings.   This is not to say that they didn't take a basic moral framework from what was preached but it was a pick and choose mentality.  One didn't want to be "Too Religious"  Well I was. Anti gay sentiment was an exception.  It took root amongst most.

I posted this topic and others like it partly to alert our community that there is a gathering storm and it is not as NOM says but in reverse.  If you pay attention, you can see that as we get more civil rights and acceptance, there are more and more in the Christian community that will become in favor of actions against us.  Some will advocate imprecatory prayer asking God for our elimination.  We will see them turning a blind eye as church members kill and maim saying that the perpetrator was not representative of the mainstream.   Look at the disgusting excuse that is laid against ENDA, namely that it will allow perverts dressed in women's clothes to molest little girls.  They do not care that we have a major issue of life just this trumped up fear.  Why? Because they hate us.

And if this pastor is so out of the mainstream where is the condemnation by the religious leaders?  They should be out there telling their flock that this is totally unacceptable.  Yet time after time when stories like this come out, they are silent.  Why? Could it be because they approve?

One of the problems that I had when I was deep in the faith as many here seem to be is that I found it very very painful to read anything that was critical of my faith.  I avoided headlines like this one.  I rationalized that not everyone in the faith is like that.  I dismissed the fact that the leadership was really influential in matters of the church.  I urge you, don't do this.  Educate yourself to what is happening.

I predict that we will see an escalation of anti LBGT rhetoric from the Christian leadership in the coming months.  I predict that transgender people will be a major target of their vitriol.  You can keep defending them if you want but at your own peril.   Stay alert.

Maggie

[Tammy Hope]

This Pastor seems to be "Baptist" in the same sense that Fred Phelps is "Baptist" -- i.e., he claims the name, and might come from an SBC background (not that I'm a big fan of SBC),

From browsing the blogs he and his wife have up, i believe that he's Independent Baptist (which is WAY more Fundie than the SBC)

And if this pastor is so out of the mainstream where is the condemnation by the religious leaders?  They should be out there telling their flock that this is totally unacceptable.  Yet time after time when stories like this come out, they are silent.  Why? Could it be because they approve?

I'll wager 98% of all pastors have never heard of the guy.

I'd also wager that you personally are not aware of WHO 98% of pastors are condemning from the pulpit (specifically I mean, not groups in general)

Beyond that, there's a problem with this guy - he apparently is getting his limited notoriety from a run in with some over-zealous law enforcement officers at a checkpoint and that part of the political spectrum who's up in arms about the invasive power of government have taken him up as a pet project (you could watch a number of YouTube videos on it)

So that leaves these folks with a reason to give him a soapbox - and I'll be most of those following his story have never heard him preach about gays or call anyone a ->-bleeped-<-got. To be sure, some of those praising him would probably not mind his sermon about gays....I won't deny that - but my guess is most of them haven't bothered to learn anything about him beyond the incident he's known for.


By the way, while I do agree with you that some of the anti-gay voices are getting more and more shrill and irrational, I am of the opinion - and have been since before I accepted my own nature - that we are living in a Post-Christian culture and that the influence of the church is waining and will continue to. The shrillness you see is not an ascending power, but a fading one lashing out in the throes of a decline that it has no power to stop.

I think there are good AND bad consequences to this sea-change but it IS, imo, happening and nothing short of divine intervention will change it. Maybe that's why I don't tremble in fear of what Christians will do to us as so many seem to.

[GinaDouglas]

And I thought the ancestors of these people who came to this country to escape religious persecution wanted this country to always be free of religious persecution.  Guess I was wrong.

Julie

Yes, you were wrong.  But it's not your fault for believing the mythology you were taught in school.

The religeous groups that founded the various colonies were seeking to escape from their being persecuted; and to set up situations where their group could be in the majority and persecute others.  Every colony had an official religeon, and laws to restrict (or outlaw) other religeons.  When Jefferson wrote The Virginia Statute For Religeous Freedom in 1779, it was such a revolutionary idea that it took 7 years of rangling before it was finally passed into law in 1786.

[Britney_413]

I strictly support the freedom of speech but where that support ends is when someone starts making threats of violence or otherwise advocating violence against others. That is generally not constitutionally protected speech. Direct threats are illegal in most states and at the federal level as well. It is not uncommon when someone talks (or jokes) about "killing the President" that within a number of hours the FBI is knocking on their door. Advocating violence against anyone is essentially making a threat although indirectly.

Frankly, it is quite stupid because some loud mouth like this Pastor could set off the wrong person and either find his own church burned to the ground or his own life in danger. I certainly don't advocate those things but it is not tactically smart either to be advocating the deaths of entire groups of people. Those people may get angry.

[Jamie-o]

It is not uncommon when someone talks (or jokes) about "killing the President" that within a number of hours the FBI is knocking on their door.

This is true.  It happened to a photography teacher I once had, when he was in college.  He was overheard saying that he was going to go down to a political rally and shoot Nixon.  He meant with his camera. 

Sorry ... hijack over, back to your thread.

[gennee]

I am a born again Christian and transgender. I have been Christian for nearly 37 years. What this 'pastor' represents is a stench in God's nostrils. One way that I'm trying to change the perception is sharing with transgender people that God loves them. Not an easy task but it must be done.

One other thing, just because the messenger isn't any good doesn't invalidate God's love for us. Sooner or later, people like this 'pastor' will stand before his Maker and give an account.

Gennee

[Hazumu]

I posted this topic and others like it partly to alert our community that there is a gathering storm and it is not as NOM says but in reverse.  If you pay attention, you can see that as we get more civil rights and acceptance, there are more and more in the Christian community that will become in favor of actions against us.  Some will advocate imprecatory prayer asking God for our elimination.  We will see them turning a blind eye as church members kill and maim saying that the perpetrator was not representative of the mainstream.   Look at the disgusting excuse that is laid against ENDA, namely that it will allow perverts dressed in women's clothes to molest little girls.  They do not care that we have a major issue of life just this trumped up fear.

I've noticed that their accusing their enemies of doing something abhorrent is usually a precursor to their doing the exact same damn thing.

"Shoving your disgusting lifestyle down our throats"?  Pretty soon they're shoving something down our throats.

"Indoctrinate our children with your disgusting ideology"?  Prelude to pushing for mandatory CHRISTIAN!!! prayer in schools.

"'Evolution' is really a way to sneak secular humanism into our schools".  They'll fix that by banning it and teaching creationism as science.

Pay attention to their words.  What they accuse their enemies of doing is a tip-off to what they wish to be doing.

This pastor is an anomaly.  It's rare to find someone who puts his dreams of righteous retribution so plainly and so front-and-center.  I've heard others say the same things when they thought they were safe.

Karen

[Julie Marie]

Couldn't agree with you more Karen.  That which they use to demonize us is what comes from the minds of people who want to do that TO us.

From the beginning of Christianity it seems followers of the faith believe it is their duty to convert.  And history tells us of an inordinate amount of death and destruction resulting in that campaign.  Besides things like the holy wars, missionaries brought into unsuspecting civilizations diseases that practically wiped them out.  All in the sake of conversion.

I will never understand why people feel an need and an obligation to push their ideology on people who don't want it.  "Saving the sinner" is just a spin on "I feel uncomfortable with you so you need to change."  What ever happened to "Live and let live"?

Julie

[Tammy Hope]

Julie i confess I've never been much of an "evagalistic" type - far less so than the logic i am about to explain should have mad me BUT....

whenever I hear someone expres the sentiments you just did, i know I'm hearing from a person who's never even TRIED to put themselves in the shoes of the person they don't approve of.

Lay aside whatever skepticism you might have about the supernatural or the Christian/Biblical take on it for just a second and try to see how the question looks from their side.

I once heard a minister explain it like this. If you are walking through a neighborhood one night and you see a house with flames coming out one window, what do you do? Do you respect the privacy of the homeowner? Do you refrain from disturbing his rest? to you "live and let live" figuring if he really wants to stay in a house that's on fire it's none of your business?

Of course not - you ignore all those considerations and pull out all the stops to warn the person of impending danger.

THAT, my friend, is how the evangelistic Christian sees the question. According to their DEEPLY held belief system, a person who hasn't been "saved" by faith in Christ IS in mortal peril and that being the case, attempting to warn that person - even in the face of indifference or even hostility - is the noblest service they can possibly render. It's not "oppression" or "imposition" or "harassment"....it's the same as getting that fellow out of the burning house.

Now, YOU may know full well (according to your worldview) that the house is not on fire and, in fact, that there is no such thing as fire at all - in which case you are justifiably annoyed at this delusional person banging on your door shouting "Fire!"

But from there point of view, as they understand the nature of human existence, the worst thing they could possibly do to you is leave you to your fate.

That's why.

[Kaitlyn]

THAT, my friend, is how the evangelistic Christian sees the question. According to their DEEPLY held belief system, a person who hasn't been "saved" by faith in Christ IS in mortal peril and that being the case, attempting to warn that person - even in the face of indifference or even hostility - is the noblest service they can possibly render. It's not "oppression" or "imposition" or "harassment"....it's the same as getting that fellow out of the burning house.

Now, YOU may know full well (according to your worldview) that the house is not on fire and, in fact, that there is no such thing as fire at all - in which case you are justifiably annoyed at this delusional person banging on your door shouting "Fire!"

But from there point of view, as they understand the nature of human existence, the worst thing they could possibly do to you is leave you to your fate.

In this case, we're talking about a man who believes in speeding gays along to eternal torture.  This isn't about compassion and salvation, it's about sadism and hate.  Even for less extreme evangelicals, I think a lot of them, deep in their hearts, wouldn't be all that sad if God smote the lot of us right now.