The Strength Of Dysphoria

[Del]

  I have a question and I hope that in my feeble attempts to post this that nobody will think that I am belittling or making fun of MtF transsexuals in any way, shape or form. I would hope that all here would know that I would never want to make fun of anyone in any way.

  My question is this:
  If you lived in a country with strict laws to govern every aspect of a woman's life would you still transition?
  I am referring to the type of lifestyle such as the strict Taliban rule in the middle east.

  This is probably the best scenario that I can come up with.
  I only have a high school education so I have to rely on methods that I can relate to in simplicity.
  It is my understanding that in some places women can't be seen by anyone other than their immediate family uncovered and can't travel outside their house without a male escort. I read somewhere that they can't even use makeup.
  Would these things stop you from transitioning or is the strength of dysphoria too great?
  Please be assured that I have no intention of belittling, ridiculing or making fun of the transsexual community in any way.
  If I have angered anyone in any way I would hope that they would please forgive me and tell me so that I can apologise.
  I would greatly appreciate any answers.
  Del

[NicholeW.]

Hi, Del.

Yes, no doubt. Particularly in a country such as Iran the path to transition is much easier for me than here in USA. My difficulty there would be with my lesbian/bisexual orientation.

Transition has nothing to do with the outward acccoutrements, not for me anyway. The outward accoutrements of a culture's gender-norms are merely what I do, in one way or another, to accomodate myself to the situation I am in. A chaddor, veil, scarf cover and lohg skirts, or any other outfit is not the point, but an outward symbol for me.

The problem is a mis-match of my sex body configuration with the sex configuration of my brain. The outward showing of that is neither here nor there.

No offense taken. I saw no reason why I should.

Nichole

[umop ap!sdn]

In that case I would have sought to leave the place before transitioning - not only for being a lesbian but also for having always been of the "chicks rule" mindset.... any culture that regards men as that much greater than women would not work for me - I can't "agree" with it. It's bad enough that at work I had to show them what I could do before I got taken seriously; being demoted that much on the social scale would feel way too confining.

[lady amarant]

If there were means for me to transition there, then yes. Whatever the societal attitudes or proscribed roles, my internal sense of self is of being female.

~Simone.

[mickie88]

Hi, Del.

Yes, no doubt. Particularly in a country such as Iran the path to transition is much easier for me than here in USA. My difficulty there would be with my lesbian/bisexual orientation.

Transition has nothing to do with the outward acccoutrements, not for me anyway. The outward accoutrements of a culture's gender-norms are merely what I do, in one way or another, to accomodate myself to the situation I am in. A chaddor, veil, scarf cover and lohg skirts, or any other outfit is not the point, but an outward symbol for me.

The problem is a mis-match of my sex body configuration with the sex configuration of my brain. The outward showing of that is neither here nor there.

No offense taken. I saw no reason why I should.

Nichole

In that case I would have sought to leave the place before transitioning - not only for being a lesbian but also for having always been of the "chicks rule" mindset.... any culture that regards men as that much greater than women would not work for me - I can't "agree" with it. It's bad enough that at work I had to show them what I could do before I got taken seriously; being demoted that much on the social scale would feel way too confining.

these two state basically my feelings as well. i would leave the country because i identify as lesbian as well.

i also have the "chicks rule" attitude to as i can never ever see myself with a man. my last boss was a man, i'm hoping for a woman to replace him, or at the very least an understanding gay man.


Warrior Princess Mickie

[NicholeW.]

My presumption in answering the question, Mickie, is that in living in the country I would have been raised there as well. I would still be lesbian, but wouldn't be socially-constructed to have 'a chicks rule' attitude. In that respect, I seriously doubt you would either.

Although there are rebels and non-conformers in every society, I know myself well enough to know I didn't choose to be such a person in my own society: the society left me little choice except to be me and be a 'rebel' or not be me. Even at that my 'rebellion' isn't a 'stand on the barricades'-type rebellion, rather it's a quiet one. Iran would give me a way to be me without that rebellion; the USA doesn't.

In answering the question I felt I had to try to see myself as a Persian woman, not one who has been innoculated with American cultural and political assumptions.

Nichole

[Kate]

It is my understanding that in some places women can't be seen by anyone other than their immediate family uncovered and can't travel outside their house without a male escort. I read somewhere that they can't even use makeup...

I'd still transition, as those aren't the things driving me.

I mean OK, if you're talking about being raped and beaten every day, well... geez, ya know at this point I'd STILL do it. Better to suffer as ME.

~Kate~

[NicholeW.]

... if you're talking about being raped and beaten every day, well... geez, ya know at this point I'd STILL do it. Better to suffer as ME.

*sigh* I have to agree, Kate. Although having it occur even once can be quite a terrible experience. But I know, I think, what you mean and certainly would agree that "better to suffer as ME."

N~

[Del]

Ladies,
  I do thank you very much for your opinions. They do help me understand the strength of this and the drive it would give under the worst scenarios.
  I hope I didn't risk starting an argument here. I know you girls take this very serious and I would not want to post something that would risk the parting of friends.
  By the way Kate, I read your coming out blog and you are a beautiful woman. I'm glad to see that you decided to use your picture for your avatar. I wish I could publicly.
  Once again, thank you.
  Del

[Kate]

... if you're talking about being raped and beaten every day, well... geez, ya know at this point I'd STILL do it. Better to suffer as ME.

*sigh* I have to agree, Kate. Although having it occur even once can be quite a terrible experience. But I know, I think, what you mean and certainly would agree that "better to suffer as ME."

Sure, and I don't mean to imply that rape isn't a terrible experience, but just that... well it's sorta a twist on the "I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I'm not" idea.

I'd rather suffer as me, for being who I really am... than live an easy life by pretending to be someone I'm not.

I think most of us DO make that choice and take that risk when we transition. The nasty possibilities may not be as dire as in other countries, but STILL.. we risk everything we've come to love and rely on in our lives "just" to be who we are.

~Kate~

[Ms Bev]

I know, I think, what you mean and certainly would agree that "better to suffer as ME."

N~

Nichole.......I think we have all suffered as ourselves to greater or lesser extents throughout our lives.  As a woman now, I no longer suffer, but am occasionally irritated by those around me who do not approve of my lesbian orientation.....*looking around*.....hmmm.....is this a lesbian only thread?? LOL.
But to directly answer the question, yes, I would still transition, if at all possible, and live with the only culture I knew.  Of course, I AM a rebel, and sometimes not so quiet.  At some point, I'm sure I would do my very best to find a way to leave.

(pssst......thanks, nice pic, Nic!)

Bev

[umop ap!sdn]

in living in the country I would have been raised there as well. I would still be lesbian, but wouldn't be socially-constructed to have 'a chicks rule' attitude.

Well something interesting about that, actually in my case given the examples I had around me to take after (i.e. parents) one could say that I was socially constructed to believe men were better - more rational, easier to get along with, not ones to wield the beating stick (of course now I know that my experiences were atypical in that last regard). Yet there was something innate in my mind that among my peers I didn't much care for boys and preferred to socialize with girls. Basically it overcame the conditioning.... not that it would do that for everyone since everyone's different, but I think in my case it still would have.

*looking around*.....hmmm.....is this a lesbian only thread?? LOL.

Teehee!

[Sephirah]

I don't think I would stay physically male just to be able to have a life of relative comfort, because that would be replacing one form of repression with another. And I would already identify with women of such a country if I lived there, whether I looked like one or not.

I wouldn't be happy with myself, so I could have the status or priviledge or whatever associated with being seen as male in those places... but it would all be meaningless and it would all be a lie.

[Lady Juliana]

yes i would and i would have done it sooner when i was younger, and then prayed to Allah that the man I had to marry believed in women's rights.

[tekla]

Highly doubtful that Allah is going to hear that prayer.  As it is people born and raised in different cultures are different.  They are not just like you or me - but with a different religion.  Its a fundamental outlook and worldview that colors everything you see, think and do.  So its possible that in that situation you would not even know of GID to have it.