lesbian

[beth]

                        i know that lots of MTF transsexuals consider themselves lesbian, many liking women all their lives, some even staying with their wives thru transition. i am lesbian but i haven't heard anyone else discribe their orientation developing in the way mine has. i would love to hear of others experiences or comments on mine to see if there are any similarities.

                        i started visiting and playing with girls at least back to kindergarten (5 years old).  i loved playing with them and talking with them and i felt a romantic? attachment to them (not sexual). many times i was considered their "boy" friend and all the adults thought it was cute because we were so young. from 5 to maybe 13 i made close friendships that lasted usually a year or so that were much like girlfriend friendships, we shared all our thoughts, had lots of fun doing many different things but they were different in that they included kissing sessions that we described as "just like in the movies". all of these friendships included a feeling of "puppy love" for me and my girlfriends. there was kissing and hugging but never any sexual component. by that i don't mean i felt sexual but did not do anything, it was that there was just this "love" without sexual feelings.all of this time was well before "male" puberty for me. basicly i liked girls for companions, friends and a "love" interest. i knew i was different from boys because they were either not interested in girls or were too shy to talk with them so most ignored them or teased them in some way. as i approached puberty i began to be shy toward girls and seemed to fear being close to them as i had all those years. i had dressed in my mothers clothes since before i was 5 and i assumed i was the only boy doing that and knew i was different. at about 15 i read something about Christine Jorgensen and her "sex change" and i instantly knew that i was like her. by 17 or so i started to date girls, playing a mostly male type role to ask for a date, but once with someone i liked i acted mostly how i felt inside and had lots of girlfriends again. there began to be a sexual component that involved their bodies and the top half of mine. eventually i fell in love with someone and married.

                       at about 25 i began to have an interest in lesbians, not the purient interest many have, but an interest in reading stories about their lives, accomplishments and love affairs. i developed "gaydar" and began to recognize gay women. i worked and owned business's in a service industry and i would go out of my way to make sure they got excellent service for the best prices. this wasn't to try to romance them, i was presenting as a married male heterosexual and in love with my wife. before 30 i suddenly realized i was lesbian in much the way i realized i was transsexual years before. i have always had interest in gay womens rights and real lesbian love stories and films. (not gratuitus lipstick stuff). i want to look attractive as a woman but have no desire to be too fem. i am in love with a lesbian who feels the same as i do about these things, we are so much alike except she is gg and very beautiful.

                       has anyone else experienced anything like this?

beth

[Terri-Gene]

Consider myself Lesbian?  Gee, how many other choices have I got?.  Actually in a private sense, away from trying to put it in words for others or of trying to justify or analyse it, it is simply a type of people whom I can identify with and share with on levels I can't with hetros, even in matters having nothing to do with sex.

Sex has always been it's own little hellish piece of doubt.  personal involvement in this has always brought up questions withen myself that I never wanted to face or address.  I've always known the answers to these questions, but the questions themselves were bothersome and caused me pain.

Sex is something I have been able to dabble with under the most private of circumstances with the most private of people to me, my two wives, but even given the depth of such relationships, it was always a guilt ridden act of passion and never something attempted or entered into without reservation.

Lesbian? now, today?  I'd have to think so, though in a physical sexual sense absolutely not.  It is a sense of communication though, with special individuals and I could not really explain the difference in these people between gay men and heteros, it is simply as far as I can discribe it, a sense of communication that transends physical sex, and I find exploration of the mentality as satisphying as any physical sex I have ever had within the bounderies I could find it acceptable.

When it comes to the limits and bounderies of sex, I'm not really even sure I understand them, or where sex begins and communication leaves off, or where and how they merge, it's something I will have to learn when I can face such things in true confort and confidence within myself.  I would hope the communication and awareness factors always outweigh the purely physical ones, but I will not know this about my own relatoinships until I can face such things with true confidence and security in myself. 

I do know that the deepest and most satisfying love I have felt in any relationship was, other then occassional references to more options in the future, a completely plutonic one, based purely on essansance and having nothing to do with touching or erotic simulation in any way, other then what could be felt from the relationship itself, which for me, filled every need and desire.  If I could find something like that again, this time with present ability to fulfill it, rather then abuse it, as I did, I would be as complete and whole as possible to be.  But then they say such things are rarely found more then once in a single life.

Terri

[stephanie_craxford]

Hello Beth.

Your experiences when you were younger mirror mine so closely, it's scary  .  Although at the time and for many years later, I didn't consider myself a lesbian, I don't even think the word even existed back then   But now as I've grown, I believe that I must be a lesbian as well.  Like many others, I was curious about being with a man in a gay relationship, it never went beyond that curiosity.  I still only like to be with women, both socially and sexually, that's one of the reasons why my wife and I intend on staying together (but not the only one  )  I have no desire to be with a man in any situation.

Steph

[Cassandra]

Well, color me lesbian Beth and Steph. My experiences when I was a child are almost identical. I
always played with the girls preferring thier company to that of boys. My relationships went much the
same way as yours Beth right into puberty when I became shy and introverted. I did do the male
boyfriend girlfriend thing even getting into heavy petting. Those kind of relationships never really
worked for me, and were very unsatisfying.

I had so many girlfiends my mother use to call me her little Cassanova. She never knew it was just a
matter of enjoying thier company. We could talk about things they could not talk about with other
boys. They used to ask me, are you sure your not gay. I always said no but in reality I guess you
could say yes, since I am a lesbian. I have no interest in being with a man.

Interesting you should mention Christine Jorgenson, she was my hero. I even had a picture of her in
her tennis outfit next to my bed. She was a pioneer for transwomen. Almost all of my friends are
lesbian women and gay men.

As far as gaydar goes I can spot a gay man from several blocks away but lesbians seem to escape me
somehow. Although since I seem to pick lesbians for friends even before I know they are lesbian I
guess it works on a subconcious level. I had one lesbian friend in college I used to go to the mall with
and girl watch together. She was my best friend. She lives in Chicago, We don't keep in touch as
much as we used to. Now that I think about it I need to call her. We haven't talked since
before I came out.

Cassie

[Debtv]

My experiences when I was a child are the same as y-all.

Many men say thay are "lesbians traped in a man's body". I hear it alot from other men. I tell them I'm a transvesbian but, I also have an up on them because I dress the part too. But the truth is, lesbians are not into men sexually...not even a little bit. Fact is there alot of lesbians who don't even accept us tg's.  I have said before that I'm a lesbian with a surprise...which is true, but I have found it offends most lesbians.

I too have lesbian friends, but that is because I never even hint at flirting with them, as they get sick and tired of men saying sexual stuff to them.

I have found bi-girls are the most open minded about being my lover. When I 1st met my gf I told her "I'd be the perfect outlet for your latient lesbian desires!" and that I am. I'm both genders and it  is an asset for us both in bed.

So I feel I'm a transvesbian into bi-gilrs as lesbians are not into my 'surprise'.

Love
Deb

[beth]

But the truth is, lesbians are not into men sexually...not even a little bit. Fact is there alot of lesbians who don't even accept us tg's.  I have said before that I'm a lesbian with a surprise...which is true, but I have found it offends most lesbians.

              we aren't into men sexually or any other way, not necessarily hating men but just prefering women, non hetero women in my case, to associate with, work with, have sex with and to love.

              i know that most lesbian women will be suspicious of me upon first meeting (suspicious i'm not female) and i accept that. i know that anyone that spends time with me and gets to know me will know that i'm a woman and a lesbian, not exactly like them because i was "raised by wolves" so to speak but sharing most views and interests. if any simply refuse to give me any time, i feel it's their loss.
             
                i thought you considered yourself a male TV  Deb, or both genders?  lesbian by definition is a woman. the suprise you have is much less of an issue compared to you not being female. the suprise isn't what offends, it's using the word lesbian to describe someone other than a female. i like the transvesbian word.

beth

[tiffani66]

I guess I must have been unlucky when I was a very young child.  My adoptive father was informed about my Gender Dysphoria just before the adoption took place.  He was told by a psychiatrist, and I quote, "Make that boy into a man.  Do whatever is necessary to make that happen."

When I began to realize, about three years later, that I felt like I should be wearing feminine clothing, I was very lucky that he never found out about it.

My adoptive mother caught me once, shortly after I turned twelve, in the bedroom belonging to my two younger sisters, trying on their clothes.  (This was possible because, even though I was twelve years old, I was as small or smaller than either of my sisters was, so I could wear the clothes belonging to my youngest sister, Jennifer, quite comfortably.)   Mom never told my adoptive father because he would have become extremely violent at the mere thought of my showing feminine characteristics.

As I developed sexually, I could not decide whether I wanted to have sex with women or men, so I jumped from one side of the fence to the other and back again repeatedly for many years.

I have not been lucky with men; my experiences have ended up with my being physically harmed, in one way or another, in every single relationship that I have had with them over the years.

I have had much better luck with women; the only time that I have ever been attacked by a female lover was my most recent girlfriend who, for some reason, did not believe that anyone could love her.  Because of that. she denied my love and things began to turn sour, to the point where she started throwing food at me in anger and actually tried to hit me, at which point I walked away.

I did not realize that I identified as a lesbian until about four years ago.

I will never feel comfortable with men in the same way as I presently do with women, as I have done with females since I was very young.  I have no interest in men beyond the merest acquaintanceship.

Tiffani

[Maura Hartman]

                       I have always had interest in gay womens rights and real lesbian love stories and films. (not gratuitus lipstick stuff). i want to look attractive as a woman but have no desire to be too fem. i am in love with a lesbian who feels the same as i do about these things, we are so much alike except she is gg and very beautiful.

                       has anyone else experienced anything like this?

beth

Yes, I had what is known as a "lipstick lesbian" girlfriend. She was not the dyky looking type, but was a very attractive mid-thirties woman who had lived most of her adult life in lesbian relationships. Unfortunately she was a horrible control freak and when she discovered that I was not a type-B controllable personality, she became a bitch from hell. Since that time I have fallen very hard for my present girlfriend and lover LeslieGirl, a post-op MtF who also posts here at Susans. We share a certain commonality and a wonderful lesbian-type of relationship without too much GG type head tripping and mean spirited stuff like I had to endure with the GG Lesbian.

[stephanie]

That's so interesting, before I came to these boards, I thought I was the only one to use the term "lesbian in a man's body."  Although right now I'm very confused and still coming to terms with my newly "freed" feelings (been a long life of repression until lately) I have thought about if I was to complete my transformation through surgery, how my sex life would be.  Obviously, I'd prefer still being with women, but I do feel that I already have some bi tendencies and have thought about the idea of having sex with a man after surgery.  I admit the idea is a curiosity more than anything (what does it feel like on the other end?).

[Cassandra]

Stephanie,

It's a long trip from here to there and you may surprise yourself as time goes by as to what your sexual preference may end up being. I have heard of folks who started out thinking they were lesbian and ended up hetero at the other end. I've even read posts by some folks who started out TS only to realise along the way they were just gay and liked dressing up in womens clothes. Who knows were you will end up. Main thing is don't be afraid to explore your feelings to find out were it is you truly want to be.

Myself I am still, as I said previously in this thread, only attracted to women, in particular my wife, and really have little or no interest in sex. The thing I have found curious though is that I have started noticing men more. I can actually see some as being attractive, others are ogres I wouldn't give the time of day to. I still have no sexual attraction but have to wonder if thats not just a by product of my lack of interst in sex. Can't really say. I guess if my sex drive ever kicks in again I'll find out.   

Keep on exploring Stephanie.


Cassie

[Danielegrl]

Yes a TV / man cannot be a lesbian. Maybe it could have another name. My name for me is transbian because i am TS and am only attracted to other full time TS women who want a truly monogomous relationship. & years and still waiting for her... But happy letting my inner child girl grow

[Thundra]

<< Yes a TV / man cannot be a lesbian. >>

Neither can a pre-op.  Lesbian sex is about sex.

[Svetlana]

really?

um, i'm not sure about that.  i always thought lesbian was much wider than just a pure sexual-act-describing term.  including attraction and flirting and friendship in such ways and so on and so forth etc...

i disagree with the "this can't be that, that can't be this" things going around here.  not because they're false necessarily - more because they're a bit pointless and confuddled, really.

look - take me for example.  i'm a person.  i could be lesbian - if i were male, i could be "gay" but only because lesbian is just a particular strange language-specificness.  so let's say... i could be gay (meaning lesbian too).  if whatever gender.

then, i could be tv.  if whatever whatever else.  i have considered trying out transvestism.  i would dress up like a man.  except this time around i'd be doing it because i wanted to.

tv/man... dodgy connections, etc.  i'm tired so excuse my words, but you know... "neither can a pre-op" - because "a pre-op" = "a man"?!  i don't ruddy well think so!  do you?

ugh very awkward time to argue stuff.  strange time point.. awake for days.  must finish uni project.  i'll just cut this one off, i'm beginning to fail making sense at all with my words.

good night!

[Danielegrl]

A pre op isn't a man because a pre op is TS and for that person gender is between the ears not the legs. However, a TV is by definition a man who likes to dress in womens clothes mostly to trick straight men into sex, whereas a CD does it for women not men. Anyway that is what i have always been told.

[Terri-Gene]

<< Yes a TV / man cannot be a lesbian. >>

Neither can a pre-op.  Lesbian sex is about sex.

Right along my own way of thinking.  Though I may blithly run around calling myself a Lesbian Identified Woman in some circles, because that is the way I feel, I do nothing of the sort around Lesbians as to them, it is a rediculous idea as I can never function as either a woman or especially as a Lesbian in the sexual sense as a pre-op.  Some Lesbians can accept me as a woman and accept the idea of my preference for women quite easily, but I have never met a fully identified Lesbian that would even consider having sex with me. In fact, many are not comfortable with me Knowing that I carry what I do, even though they can be quite socially friendly with me in some contexts.  Contrary to the wanna be belief of many, it's just not so simple as being a dyke with a built in "toy".  Not by a long shot to the moon.  In a broader sense, I get along better with st8 females then I do in tight Lesbian circles even though I am not known at all for sexual advances and they recognize that I am more of a plutonic person who is within a marrage bond, even if it is not a fullfilling relationship.

If more would quit attempting to define women and their relationships and simply learn from them how they feel about themselves and others, such discussions would not be worth the time to participate in them.  It is the attempt to redefine such things to the TG point of view that causes so much grief for the "female Identified" in womens circles.

Terri

[Sheila]

I have no label for myself. I'm still married and my wife thinks I'm a lesbian, but she is diffinately not a lesbian (go figure) I'm not one to label myself or anyone esle for that matter. I have never liked men either sexually or friends. I do have some friends but they are gay. Most men don't want to be around me and that was even before I came out as trans. I have really never had any men friends. I was pretty much a loner. I wasn't that good looking growing up so wasn't much of a social person. I have only had girls that I have dated and the third one I married. I like girls a lot more than men, a lot more. It is not a sexual feeling though. I just like being around and doing things with women. So am I a lesbian, I don't know what I am. I don't have sex anymore. So I don't know what I am.
Sheila

[Debtv]

However, a TV is by definition a man who likes to dress in womens clothes mostly to trick straight men into sex, whereas a CD does it for women not men. Anyway that is what i have always been told.

Wrong....I suppose some tg's trick men...but that is not what defines a tv. To "trick" another for sex is wrong, no mater where a person stands in the tg spectrum.

A TV is by defination a man who likes to (and needs to) dress in womens cloths. And a CD = TV. Crosdresser just sounds less clinical.

Btw, whover told you that...has no clue.

I am a cd/tv and I'm not into men sexually. Or with my own 'term' I am a transvesbian.

Love
DebTV

[Leigh]

My definition of TS.  If you have one of those *things*, like *it*, never want to get rid of *it* and enjoy using *it* you dam sure are not TS or any kind.

Leigh

[Svetlana]

I think it's a bit silly to say things like "I wish people would quit trying to re-define things" because the definitions weren't exactly precise in the first place.  It's not a case of re-defining something if that's what you think it means.  Just as is the case with others who think different to how you think.

A "pre-op" is a TS.  I'll assume for simplicity's sake that we're talking M-to-F here (although others seem just to have ignored that - I'd like to at least give it a glancing mention).  If you're not TS then either you're not going to have the op (and therefore aren't "pre-op") or you're going in entirely the wrong direction and aught to seek help!!  Because if you're not going through all of this because it'll bring you closer to who you really are, then what in the blue hell are you going through all of this for?

"Who you really are."  Not, "who I want to identify as", or some other such middling euphamism for "not quite"... but "who I really am."  And that's exactly what it means, and nothing less!  I'm not a man.  If most women had green noses, and you had a green nose, that would not make you a woman.  Similarly, most men have tackle.  So do I, at the moment.  That doesn't make me a man.  There is no "automatic assumption unless proven otherwise".  Where does that come from?  Some physical attribute at the point of birth?  How arbitrary is that?

Should I ask any woman I might meet, "prove you're a woman"?  No.  Such that should not be asked of me either, nor any other woman afflicted with my condition.

I would not call myself a lesbian "blithely".  In my case, it's a little more tricky than that, as, being bisexual, I'm never sure if the term "lesbian" applies or not.  But let's just assume it does.  Terri, you continue to confound me, I must say.  If you don't think you are a real woman, or ever will be, then that's up to you, but you should learn that everybody else who's changing their body shape isn't necessarily the same way!  And again, I would ask you... if you're not a real woman, then why on earth are you making yourself look like one?  I just don't get that.  I'm assuming you've got reasons for it.  Myself, I'm doing it because that's who I am.  Nothing less, nothing alternate, nothing somehow different in some vague way, nothing seperate, nothing dumbed-down, nothing "special case"... all woman.  That's all and that's it.  Anything else has nothing to do with it.

I am a pre-op.  And I can be a lesbian.  Assuming bisexual girls are lesbians, I am one.  Might you meet me one day, you might find me being one of those "real lesbians who won't sleep with you".  And if you forget my photo, you won't even notice the difference from me to any other of those people you term as "real lesbians" - because there is no difference.

Do what you want and be who you are, or who you want to be, but don't try and plaster everybody else with the same brush, because in this instance, it simply is not true.  Sorry to go on like this, but you do keep on saying stuff like that.  Learn that you are very different to a lot of other people on here who would call themselves "pre-op TS", and I wouldn't call you one, not if you don't think you're a "real woman".  There's nothing "bad about" or "wrong with" that, but it doesn't mean to say that everybody else must be the same, and "can never be real women" too.

[Leigh]

Lesbians are women who are only attracted to other women.  Gay men are only attracted to other men.  This is why there is the term bi, someone who cares not which gender they are attracted to.    I suppose someone could use the argument that it changes with the relationship:  This week I am Lesbian, last  month I was straight/gay whatever. A "functioning" pre op would have something for everyone.

Lesbian identified? A person can be catholic yet not go to church or practice the tenents of the church.  A woman can be Lesbian and do the same thing within the Lesbian community.  You can attend church, you just can't approach the alter so to speak

I constantly find it amazing that people who do not function and live within the Lesbian community speak with such knowlege.  Speak not of which you do not know!