My obersavations on why TG's seem off in conversation...just a thought.

[noir]

This is a huge crock. How can you be so ignorant as to generalize people like that? Guess what? Females will want to problem solve as much as males will emphasize. No goddamn way you actually posted that. And I am not getting further into this. Be ashamed, be very shamed.

[finewine]

This is a huge crock. How can you be so ignorant as to generalize people like that? Guess what? Females will want to problem solve as much as males will emphasize. No goddamn way you actually posted that. And I am not getting further into this. Be ashamed, be very shamed.

I'm not sure to whom you are replying but perhaps you may have not heard of  Baron-Cohen's theory, which states that "the female brain is predominantly hard-wired for empathy, and that the male brain is predominantly hard-wired for understanding and building systems".  It's something he referred to as the empathising-systemising (E-S) theory.   Of course, it is just a theory.

I admire your disdain for ignorance.  I look forward to your carefully considered critique of the E-S theory with interest, as I don't necessarily agree with it either.

[Mister]

Didn't you just write out an apology because you were found to be too harsh and abrasive? clearly your apology was nothing but a way to get your foot back in the door, not an actual declaration of self-examination and regret.

[Julie Marie]

Take a female born child and raise her exactly as society expect boys to be raised and let's see how "female" she acts.  Take a male born child and raise him exactly as society expects girls to be raised and let's see hoe "male" he acts.

There will always be an element of nature and one of nurture but you CAN alter a person's persona to cross socially acceptable gender lines if you raise them in an environment that condones that.  Male and female born persons who transition at puberty will act much differently than if they had transitioned at 50.

Julie

[Sammy]

*Chuckles*
One problem of mine, I speak in superlatives and over generalizations, even when I don't entirely mean them.

This active listening skill is more of a nod, it is and ability to, don't know how to put it, talk back, but mostly be listening at the same time. I can't really describe it. And once again, I am very well that being womanly is the EXPERIENCE, so of course it's going to be hard for them pick it up automatically.

To mister: I apologized for being incredibly insulting, in one particular thread. If this is insulting to you I'm sorry.

The reason I am writing all this is I spend a few days with a woman (transgender) and she did not seem to exhibit this listening ability, and it seemed to make here very "rude", while this is not so. She was absolutely gorgeous, I did fall for her, but her conversation style was "off". I didn't care per se, but I am aware that she was OBSESSED with being seen as female, and while I did see her as female, this was something I noticed that was "off".

So I am righting this post mostly based off of a single person I met, although I have observed it in a few members of this site. Once again, not a criticism or judgement, but I think it may benefit someone in transition, because this to me at least is a VERY womanly trait, to be able to actively listen.

Please, I'm not trying to be offensive or abrasive, just giving observations.

[Mister]

As I'm not a transwoman, this isn't offensive to me.  What blows my mind, though, is how you think you can make sweeping generalizations that are pretty insulting and then say you're not making a judgment so no one should be offended.

Seems to me that the one with the communication problem here is you.

[Sammy]

Yes, I do have communication issues, and I do admit that, especially on web forums, because I can't use body language, tone, and tact to get the point across. And once again, this isn't meant to say "YOUR ARE ALL MEN" but I do realize that....ugh I'm going to shut up.

Wasn't meant as a generalization, it was based off mostly one person I met, while it was observed in others here. But once again, it's hard to base something like that off the internet, because active listening is hard to judge based of text based communication.

Crap. Sorry. Just a THOUGHT.
Post Merge: September 15, 2009, 12:39:47 PM
And this is EXACTLY why I prefer to talk to people in PMs.

[Nero]

The reason I am writing all this is I spend a few days with a woman (transgender) and she did not seem to exhibit this listening ability, and it seemed to make here very "rude", while this is not so. She was absolutely gorgeous, I did fall for her, but her conversation style was "off". I didn't care per se, but I am aware that she was OBSESSED with being seen as female, and while I did see her as female, this was something I noticed that was "off".

Hi Sammy,
One thing to remember is that not all women - cis or trans, are polite empathizers with good communication skills. Being "rude" is often just that and not any indication of lack of female (or male) traits/skills.  Women are not these perfect creatures who are always sweet, always know the right things to say, when to listen, etc.

[Hannah]

maybe I'm just being a jerk.

I'm going to go with that, but assume it isn't deliberate.

Try to remember we have things going on. We are in varying stages of transition, and darling it's a hell of a lot harder than it looks. We've got decades of conditioning to overcome, not to mention painful physical things and internal, chemical transitions taking place that are just, like, woah.

So yeah, please forgive me for not getting too emotionally involved when someone whines about not having a job, but doesn't get up and look for one. I/we have limited emotional resources to work with, because for the first time in most of our lives we are actually putting ourselves first.

[Sammy]

I'd keep explaining what I mean, but I would just have to explain that. Then the next.

So for my own sanity, I'm just going to say I'm sorry and move on.

REALLY wasn't meant to be offensive or even say "do this". Just an observation.

Although it would be interesting to discuss the sociological components vs. the biological components of what make "male" and "female" behavior...

[Steffi]

I don't think that your post was in the least offensive or that you have anything to apologise for - FWIW I think you're probably more or less right.
..... your problem here is probably that a lot of people aren't actually listening     

[Sammy]

Yeah, this I am going to say, and WILL NOT apologize for. People on this forum (as well as any form) don't really listen. They read, say "OMG stupid rude idiot" and don't try to figure out what is going on. That's why I hate forums, all rules of being considerate go out the window. My problem is, I'm trying to be considerate to EVERYONE on this damn website, and it never works.
Post Merge: September 15, 2009, 09:15:57 PM

This is a huge crock. How can you be so ignorant as to generalize people like that? Guess what? Females will want to problem solve as much as males will emphasize. No goddamn way you actually posted that. And I am not getting further into this. Be ashamed, be very shamed.

Women are GREAT problem solvers. Men are not great at empathy. Maybe a few, but they are few and far between. And believe me, I have tried to find them. For what it is worth, I am a bio-male (not MTF or FTM), and I know this...men are pricks. They want something by listening. Gay men, straight men. They can listen, but that is it. They can't understand. They either talk to damn much, or too damn little. Not nearly as good at active listening. Believe me, I'm trying to find one, because I know I'm in the right body, but I can't understand why my psychological being is pretty much entirely woman. Please prove me wrong, give me an example of a bio-male who is really actually very loving and WOMANLY.

Let the pissing contest begin!

[Steffi]

OMG..... I didn't want to start any kind of dispute ..... you do ALL recognise that my glib reply post WAS very tongue in cheek, hence the smileys?

But to talk about the issue seriously......
First point first :-
Surely the accepted wisdom is correct, women - on average -  are more empathic and better listeners? 

[Sammy]

Steffi, this wasn't you. I actually want to give you a big hug for understanding what I was trying to say. I'm just getting kind of pissy. Maybe I should just delete this thread???

[Hannah]

Yes women on average are more empathic and better listeners, when they aren't depressed, traumatised, lonely, neglected, battered, desperate for medical care and totally alone in the world. Walk a mile in my shoes before you even start to judge me for being occasionally grouchy. Criticising a transexual by comparing them to the genetic members of their target sex is grossly irresponsible, because genetic girls just get to be girls, they are brought up with and are praised for the same traits we are being criticised for not being able to pick up overnight. Well, like I said before, we've got some things going on.

[placeholdername]

Maybe I should just delete this thread???

1 vote from me, just because it's not helping anyone that I can see.

[Steffi]

Well..... you can delete the thread or not - for me, I don't care either way.

I would point out that I lived 50+ years in the male role and it has left me with some behavioural traits are damned hard to kick!    

The thread could perhaps become constructive if we discussed why this is difficult for us to emulate.  It's just a reality of our unique circumstances IMO, just as the question of "tell or not tell" is or a discussion regarding Voice or Body Language.

I don't actually understand why it's such a prickly issue ....... but what the heck ...... if no-one is going to say anything that is somehow constructive then it's just a flame war trying to happen 

by the way

Criticising a transexual by comparing them to the genetic members of their target sex is grossly irresponsible

Yes indeed.....and as soon as the rest of the world realises that, all our lives will get a whole lot better      

[placeholdername]

The thread could perhaps become constructive if we discussed why this is difficult for us to emulate.

That's what I saw as the original point.

[Hannah]

I don't know if empathy is difficult to emulate per se, or if eumlate is even the right word because the girls in us want to express themselves, it's just difficult to control "him" and remember not to start trying to fix stuff right away, not to feel compelled to take action. Just one of the many other things we do that takes time and patience...and support.

[Sammy]

This WAS meant to be constructive. I had an observation, wanted input, thought maybe someone could benefit...pissing match ensued. What worried me is this is what led me to lose it a few nights ago...

I was taught asking questions was good. Forums are meant for questions that are siimple, like, "Does this make my shirt look good?" But this doesn't seem to be following the path I wanted it to...

God, I wish people would just chill out. I am a really nice guy, I swear