Stealth hostility toward those who are out or still transitioning

[ceili]

I choose to be out, for reasons I've explained elsewhere on this board, but will explain again. First, I have small children who have two Mom's so we're already known to be part of the "LGB" population, second because I want to educate people, and third, because I just don't really care what people think. (A little conflict between 2 and 3, but I try to find a balance).

Anyway, I have found, and not just on this forum but on others and IRL, that being out is looked down upon, and worse, there are some who are stealth (well, they think they are) who are very hostile toward those of us who are not.

What the hell is wrong with people? Seriously. It amazes me how people who work so hard to be accepted and not be judged based on who they are and decisions they make, themselves turn right around and criticize others for what they do and the decisions they make. The ultimate in hypocrisy.

On another, totally non-tg related message board, I called out a person who was disparaging transgender people, even making the "freak" and "it" references. I then find out that this person is, herself, transgender. She won't own up to it publicly, but after a PM exchange admitted she had been "born with a birth defect and had it corrected." Well, yeah! That's how I look at it too, but I don't go around acting like I know nothing about what it is to be transgender and trashing those who come up behind me. This is someone who claims on another site where she has posted as recently as 2007, that she has been fulltime since 1980. This is a person who has said some of the most vile and hateful things against me and transgender people in general that I've ever heard or read.

I just don't get it. I can understand wanting to blend in with society and not reveal your past, but I don't understand the vile vitriol and disdain for those who choose not to do the same.

As an aside.... If you're going to be "stealth," trash those who are where you came from and adamantly deny that readily available evidence outing you is you, at least do a better job of covering your tracks... 

[Birdie]

I've actually experienced the exact opposite, so I guess it depends on your perspective. It's really messed up that she would treat you like that, or that even anyone would treat anyone like that. But definitely a strange thing to do when she knows how it must feel.

*bighugs*

Anyways, I'm stealth and have heard so many nasty things said about people who are stealth. It's a difficult choice to make between the two different ways of living your life, but just because you're living your life in a different way doesn't mean that everyone else is wrong or even your enemy (which is how it sounds sometimes when people are attacking you for being stealth). The nastiness and the dismissive mean comments tend to come from both sides. I think it's just because some people think that what works for them must also work for everyone else.

It's always the same thing. People can't deal with someone who is happily living their life in the exact opposite way to them. Maybe it's some kind of insecurity about making the wrong choice? I don't know. But it definitely comes from both sides and stealth people have to put up with a lot of nonsense from out people aswell.

Luckily there are those of us from either side that don't buy into the whole "one-size-fits-all" attitude and understand that everone has a different path to follow. Judging others for doing the best they can to be happy is just rediculous, you know? 

I wrote a lot more, but I was mostly rambling. I'l be quiet now.

[Janet_Girl]

I can understand why some would wish to be stealth.  But for me, at this time, it is not important to me to be stealth.

I don't wear tee shirt saying "AM Trans" or a play on the Transformer movies, but I also don't deny the fact that I am.  Like you, Celli, it is a matter of educating the masses that we are here to stay and that we are not freaks of nature.

People have their views on the world, right or wrong.  But the problem comes when they push it off as 'it is my way or the highway'.  That is the reason I am against the extreme Xtian movement against the entire GLBT movement.

I don't begrudge my 'Stealth' sisters in any way, but I am living my Transition my way.  And if that means right now I am Out and Proud, then that is my view of me.


Janet

[ceili]

I've actually experienced the exact opposite, so I guess it depends on your perspective. It's really messed up that she would treat you like that, or that even anyone would treat anyone like that. But definitely a strange thing to do when she knows how it must feel.

*bighugs*

Anyways, I'm stealth and have heard so many nasty things said about people who are stealth. It's a difficult choice to make between the two different ways of living your life, but just because you're living your life in a different way doesn't mean that everyone else is wrong or even your enemy (which is how it sounds sometimes when people are attacking you for being stealth). The nastiness and the dismissive mean comments tend to come from both sides. I think it's just because some people think that what works for them must also work for everyone else.

It's always the same thing. People can't deal with someone who is happily living their life in the exact opposite way to them. Maybe it's some kind of insecurity about making the wrong choice? I don't know. But it definitely comes from both sides and stealth people have to put up with a lot of nonsense from out people aswell.

Luckily there are those of us from either side that don't buy into the whole "one-size-fits-all" attitude and understand that everone has a different path to follow. Judging others for doing the best they can to be happy is just rediculous, you know? 

I wrote a lot more, but I was mostly rambling. I'l be quiet now.

We're in complete agreement. I don't knock anyone who chooses to go stealth. I may do so myself at some point. I tend to shy away from criticizing what others choose to do with their journey. I hate hypocrisy though and tend to speak out when I see it.
Post Merge: September 21, 2009, 09:11:21 AM

I can understand why some would wish to be stealth.  But for me, at this time, it is not important to me to be stealth.

I don't wear tee shirt saying "AM Trans" or a play on the Transformer movies, but I also don't deny the fact that I am.  Like you, Celli, it is a matter of educating the masses that we are here to stay and that we are not freaks of nature.

People have their views on the world, right or wrong.  But the problem comes when they push it off as 'it is my way or the highway'.  That is the reason I am against the extreme Xtian movement against the entire GLBT movement.

I don't begrudge my 'Stealth' sisters in any way, but I am living my Transition my way.  And if that means right now I am Out and Proud, then that is my view of me.


Janet

Again, we're in complete agreement. And don't even get me started on the whole Christian extremist thing, lol. Unfortunately I was one myself for a long time. Now just the thought sickens me.

[Julie Marie]

The only thing I hear from those who claim to be stealth is the occasional shot towards those who can't be stealth.  It's like a 'hurray for me, too bad for you' attitude.  Most of the time I see this when the subject of being an activist comes up.

I do think there's little compassion from the "stealth" towards those who will never be stealth.  And there are those who disassociate themselves with the TG world with claims like "born with a birth defect and had it corrected", implying they are not TG.  Of course, implying they are not TG is ridiculous but we see it on occasion.

I think a lot of TGs put a lot of energy into denying who they are in the hopes of avoiding the negative stigma.  If you can accomplish that, great, but don't forget where you came from.

Julie

[ceili]

The only thing I hear from those who claim to be stealth is the occasional shot towards those who can't be stealth.  It's like a 'hurray for me, too bad for you' attitude.  Most of the time I see this when the subject of being an activist comes up.

Family and current work situation aside (I still work for the same company I did before) I could easily go stealth. People who didn't know whom I've outed myself to or have been outed to are usually shocked when they are told. I just still don't see how people can turn their back on others who are where they were. It's a putrid, hypocritical, elitist attitude.

I do think there's little compassion from the "stealth" towards those who will never be stealth.  And there are those who disassociate themselves with the TG world with claims like "born with a birth defect and had it corrected", implying they are not TG.  Of course, implying they are not TG is ridiculous but we see it on occasion.

I think a lot of TGs put a lot of energy into denying who they are in the hopes of avoiding the negative stigma.  If you can accomplish that, great, but don't forget where you came from.

Julie[/color][/font]

YES! I have seen that time and time again, the disassociation thing. "I'm not trans, I just fixed a birth defect. Transgender people are icky." OK, they don't come right out and say the "icky" part all the time, but they may as well do so. 

[Steph]

Family and current work situation aside (I still work for the same company I did before) I could easily go stealth. People who didn't know whom I've outed myself to or have been outed to are usually shocked when they are told. I just still don't see how people can turn their back on others who are where they were. It's a putrid, hypocritical, elitist attitude.

A question?  How would you be able to "Go stealth" in the same company?  Are there not folks there who knew you before transition?

YES! I have seen that time and time again, the disassociation thing. "I'm not trans, I just fixed a birth defect. Transgender people are icky." OK, they don't come right out and say the "icky" part all the time, but they may as well do so. 

There are those who do not deny their past and there are those who wish to hide it, as there are those who don't mind being trans and there are those who see trans as being the journey and simply want to be known as a woman.  Everyones view is valid and relevant to each, and while it is often discussed at length I've not seen "vile vitriol and disdain" towards anyone.

-={LR}=-

[Northern Jane]

Well I have the greatest admiration for those who are out and adore the few who are gorgeous enough to turn heads and upset "the gender norms" and still choose to be out - GOOD FOR THEM! Shake 'em up baby!

I'm stealth simply because that's the way it was done way back then and I could get away with it. Now i am old enough that "coming out" wouldn't have the impact it would have 30 years ago LOL!

[finewine]

I don't think there's anything wrong with being stealth and agree that it's entirely up to the individual.  Personally I don't find the "closet" term particularly offensive, even if it's intended to be.  I wouldn't be "out" either.

But I do mind (get PO'ed & raise hell) when people have the audacity to tell me or (subtly imply) how I should live MY life.

I quite agree and I deplore those who seek to define inclusion or exclusion boundaries from a community based on their stealth or trans status - and I'd extend that to include backhanded comments about how someone should "STFU" and "go drink beer with their buddies"

[jesse]

 It is my full intention to go stealth after i finish this... to me it is transition for a reason im in transition not stuck there we need the activists for sure to keep us all from being drug out into the streets and shot by the anti's and i will always be the behind the scenes supporter in money and any other method i can without outing myself including this web board i think people need to consider what is best for themselfs and let the rest live their lifes as they want.
jessie

[Julie Marie]

First of all, there's varying levels of stealth.  To be totally 100% stealth is almost impossible.  You'd have to transition very early, walk away from family and friends, make sure all documents form the past can never leak out and all important documents have been changed.  That's a pretty tall order.

I'm stealth in public.  That means I interact with people who don't know my past and am seen as female.  I can't say if I'm 100% successful but I can say there's is no definitive evidence I am treated any differently than any other woman.  But with family, friends, co-workers there's no way I'll ever be stealth unless I figure out how to erase their memories. 

There have been instances on this very forum where people have said and/or implied that "stealth people are 'selfish', 'self-loathing', & that they should help push the GLBT rights movement along instead of 'being confined to a second closet'.  To me (and I have said this on another board), those comments have the word ENVY written all over them (not to mention that they are very offensive too).

Let's say a group of women get together to discuss the discrimination women face in today's world. On the coffee table in front of them is a Victoria's Secret catalog.  And let's say it was well known that these VS models reject any offers to get them involved in the women's movement.  And the talk turns to something like, "All they have is their looks.  If it weren't for that they would be sitting right here with us to discuss REAL issues!"  And in walks one of the models and says, "I heard that.  You're just jealous because I'm beautiful and you're not."

I think you know where I'm going here. 

Just because you are blessed doesn't mean you get a pass for taking the attitude, "I'm not getting involved".  And saying, "You envy me because I can pass and you can't" is being pretty superficial.  On the other hand, just because you're not blessed doesn't give you the right to criticize others for not getting involved.  But trying to rally ALL to come together is a positive thing as numbers do have an impact when they are larger. 

The rights gained by those who fight discrimination are enjoyed by all so one would think it's in everyone's interest to get as many people as possible to band together to fight discrimination, prejudice and ignorance.  It's just common sense.

For those who say they are stealth and take the attitude "It's not my problem because I'm stealth", don't expect to get any sympathy from those who fight the fight when you find yourself the victim of discrimination, prejudice or ignorance.  It only takes one person, one document, one stone turned to change your life.  Misinformation, ignorance and prejudice are still alive and well.  Like someone living in the witness protection program, you will always be looking over your shoulder as long as the stigma remains unchanged.  Saying I am an authentic man or woman does not make it so in the eyes of someone else who just discovered your birth gender.  And making that claim does not make you immune to the things TGs face in this world.

I have the utmost respect for those who really can't pass yet go out into the world and interact with the public daily.  That takes courage.  And to criticize them by telling them they can't pass is pretty crappy.  And those who can pass yet put their faces out there for all to see in the hopes of improving the quality of life for all TGs are my heroes.  Donna Rose comes to mind.  They risk what most of us are unwilling to risk.

For me, I don't like hiding.  I hated the closet I was in and I escaped.  Then I found myself in another closet trying to hide my male past and I hated that.  I just want to be me and not have to watch every word I say, overly concern myself about my presentation or worry about being outed.  My therapist said it is virtually impossible to transition and never once get "clocked".  And I think she's right.  Her attitude was to help her clients gain the personal strength that would enable them to handle being clocked without upsetting their lives.  That seems like a better option than spending the rest of your life trying to be stealth. 

If you identify as being stealth and choose to go it alone, I wish you all the best and hope your life goes well.  But saying you are authentic, real or whatever adjective you use to view your present gender is only how you see yourself.  You can't make anyone else see you that way.  They will take what they know of you and come to their own conclusions.  And if they know your birth gender, that will most likely factor into how they see you and part of that will depend on how they see all TGs. 

That's why I think it's important we become a cohesive unit and work towards positive change.

Julie

 

[Steffi]

Julie Marie - great post 

I have to say that on trans forums generally, it surprises and disappoints me
a) How bluntly offensive SOME posters are
b) How astonishingly sensitive/aggressively-defensive SOME posters are

[Miniar]

My two cents on the matter is this.
There's always going to be someone on either side of any decision that thinks of these things in an "us versus them" sort of a way.
For my part, I never state that my way is the only way, nor do I state that my way is better. I simply state, "this is what I plan to do" and why.
It seems, for my part, to be more common to see people telling everyone to be stealth than to see people telling other people to be out in general.
This is only based off of what limited contact I've had with other trans-people, and is quite possibly/probably an inaccurate observation if one attempts to apply it to more than what little I've seen.

[Miniar]

And that's another thing that irks me, Julie.  When people make sweeping generalizations without knowing absolutely anything about the other person's life and say things like:

Well, I'm 100% stealth.  My family DOES know, of course, but as far as friends, acquaintances, co-workers, they don't.  I also transitioned very young and no, and I don't have any "old", or "prevous" credit., employment or college records.  Everything I have today I have accomplished as FEMALE.  Sorry to be blunt Julie, but not everyone transitions when they are middle-aged or after having led a life as a man for decades.  For the record, there are many of us who transitoned young and many years ago.

I am sorry you had to endure discrimination, but that doesn't give you the right to tell stealth people what they should do with their lives..  What to do you expect really?  that we jeopardize the lives we have for a cause?  Sorry but that's not going to happen EVER., and the sooner activists and activist wannabes get that message into their heads, the better it will be.

Couple things,
first, if you're out to your family, and you're still 100% stealth, does that mean that you consider your family 0%?
I just have to ask, because the implication of stealth is that "no one" knows about your medical history but you, which means, if someone other than you knows, you're not 100% stealth, right?

Also, is anyone here telling you how to live your life?
People are expressing their views, their opinions, on what they personally feel about being stealth or not. No one's point at you and going "and you, you go out yourself right now young lady!"
All I see being said here is that if you aren't willing to work for something (such as acceptance and respect for all people, trans and with a trans history) then you shouldn't expect people to afford it to you.

[Miniar]

Family doesn't count.  If that were the case, then no one would be "stealth" by that logic, right?

Not 100% anyway. Which is the point she was trying to make I believe.
There'll always be someone, somewhere, who knows.

Not directly, of course.  But I prefer to be blunt and to the point instead of hiding behind insinuations.

The thing is, sometimes we read insinuations where none are intended.
I for one go out of my way to say exactly what I mean in what I write on the internet. I do this because it's impossible to read tone, body-language, and etc. "correctly" in what is written.
Reading between the lines is thus, incredibly unreliable and highly likely to backfire.

[Steph]

This whole topic is fairly typical blah!

Most, if not all TS did not have their lives handed to them on a plate similarly they didn't ask to be the way they are.  They fought throughout their transition and while many win, many seem to loose.  Those who succeed move on and for the most part live the rest of their lives as the men or women they are.  Those who don't win can often languish in despair.  Personally I would not say that those who succeeded are blessed in any way, for how could anyone say that suffering as we did/do is any kind of blessing.

To want those who have transitioned and who have moved on should stick around and fight is totally unfair and selfish, they made it, stop whining about such a transitory time of your life.  I admit I don't understand the politics of the US, but hell the freest country in the world, who elected it's first Black President should be able to enforce basic human rights.  The phrase:

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

come to mind.

-={LR}=-

[FairyGirl]

never mind.

[Zelane]

My only worry with this kind of heated (and hated) debate its that: those that are out and feel anger at the stealth people. Will the rage or whatever they might feel made them go and out those stealth?

[Janet_Girl]

My only worry with this kind of heated (and hated) debate its that: those that are out and feel anger at the stealth people. Will the rage or whatever they might feel made them go and out those stealth?

I have nothing but admiration for my sisters who have established their lives as they see fit.  But I think that what many might want is to put a face to plight of the Trans community.  Discrimination in work, housing and benefits. 

I don't think that those who are stealth, should come out.  That would not be our call, it is theirs.  Just as it is for those of us who are open about having GID.  Even among those who are not out and proud, it is their call as to whether or not to stand up and face the world.

Being non-stealth has it's own drawbacks.  One will face more discrimination, jeers, and those off-color remarks.  If you are stealth, stay that way.  If you are not, stay that way.  If you wish to go stealth, go for it.  If you are out, proud and an activist, we should salute you, for you will be the ones who gives us the rights we so richly deserve.

But the hostilities must stop.  Fighting amongst ourselves will only give fuel to our opponents.

JMHO,

Janet

[jesse]

agreed janet