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Am I really the desired gender?

Started by bigbreastlover4269, September 12, 2009, 11:06:32 AM

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bigbreastlover4269

Reading articles across the web in the trans world, it's come to my attention that transgenders indentify themselves with the gender they desire (no duh, that's what being transgender) but is a MtF really a woman? And is a FtM really a man? How is that so when I have unwanted chromosomes?

I have a male body, I'm a male. I'm not a female... but I wish I was. I just don't want to be female. I want to look just like the woman in my avatar but I look nothing like her. Oh sure! I can make fake accounts and pose as my ideal female but that won't change that i have this XY-chromozone i should have never have had.

Just something I recently thought about.
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Calistine

You don't seem to know the difference between sex and gender
Sex is whats between your legs physically. You cant change that without surgery.
But your gender is your culture and how you perceive yourself. You can be any gender you want. If you have penis and you say your a woman, you are a woman regardless.
So to answer your question transwomen are women and transmen are men. Its who you are inside.
And oh yeah don't worry about chromosomes. Nobody just goes and says oh this person is an xy! Just think of it as your guideline for how you were going to form in the womb and that it was a mistake.
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petzjazz

That's all a matter of opinion and how you choose to define "gender" or "sex". Biologically, no, you will never be anything other than your birth sex (due to science's inability to replace each set of sex chromosomes in every cell of your body), and you will never (barring major scientific MTF-surgery revelations in the next 40 years) be able to reproduce as anything but your birth sex. However, for all societal purposes (other than giving birth), you can become your desired gender. Transition does not change our cellular sex; it only changes its physical manifestations to match our percieved gender.     
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Ms Bev

Quote from: BigLover on September 12, 2009, 11:06:32 AM
.......transgenders indentify themselves with the gender they desire (no duh, that's what being transgender) but is a MtF really a woman? And is a FtM really a man? How is that so when I have unwanted chromosomes?

........... I can make fake accounts and pose as my ideal female but that won't change that i have this XY-chromozone i should have never have had.



Such a shame.  Is that how you perceive yourself?  I notice  something thing right off......that you refer to us as 'transgenders', and in such a way that seems to exclude yourself.   I don't like being called 'a transgender'.  You may call me a transwoman, perhaps a transsexual woman, but if you are trying to pin point who I AM.....you may refer to me as a woman.
Other identifiers could be used to describe me, if you reeeeely need to know.  For instance, you could call me a 'lesbian woman'.
Gender-related chromosomal diversity in the human population is the norm, and occurs through random mutation.  There are genetic, natal women who are xy.  Look up AIS, androgen insensitivity syndrome.  Because of a mutation on the short 'arm' of the y chromosome, otherwise androgen-sensitive cells are unable to 'recognize' testosterone, and so the birth results in nature's default......female.
There are many other intersex conditions in the human population.  I think the one single condition that seems to mystify you, and so many other people, is when the developing brain is not subjected to critically scheduled sex hormone washes, so that a male fetus may develop a female brain, and a female fetus may develop a male brain.
As previously stated, there is SEX.....that which is between your legs......your body.  Then there is GENDER.....that which is between your ears.
I won't even pretend to understand orientation (who you like to shake the mattress with)......it's something you know, and either accept or don't.

I hope you find everything you're looking for in life.  It's a coaster ride, and you can behave, and grip the lap bar..........but
You'll find me standing on the way down, waving my arms in delight.



Bev.....
woman,
lesbian,
joy rider
1.) If you're skating on thin ice, you might as well dance. 
Bev
2.) The more I talk to my married friends, the more I
     appreciate  having a wife.
Marcy
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Asfsd4214

I used to think a lot along your lines, and it's a large part of the reason I used to be so depressed.

Over time however, I've come to have a more vague, but perhaps ironically more accurate sense of what gender means.

And that's really the question here, what IS gender? What makes someone male or female?

Is it genitalia? Because there are plenty of intersex conditions which blur that line. If you are born with both male and female reproductive organs, which are you? Are you whichever are the dominant/more fully functional organs? What if that question is a matter of debate? Genetically you're not fully one or the other from a genital point of view, but you will still tend to have an identity of one or the other.

Is it chromosomes? As another poster mentioned, there are conditions like AIS and Klinefelter's syndrome, If you have both two X AND a Y chromosome, which are you? Are you male because only males have a Y chromosome? Are you female because only females have two X chromosomes. Genetically you don't fit fully in either category. But before there was a knowledge of conditions like AIS and chromosomes, there'd be little doubt that a woman with AIS was female. If a woman with AIS looks like a woman, believes she is a woman, acts like a woman, in all ways that are apparent IS a woman. How could you say she's not? Because of her chromosomes? Is gender really that arbitrary? If you fixate on such a relatively minor detail to define gender, then what is the point of having a concept of gender at all.

Is gender social? That seems to ultimately be the only thing definitive. For all practical purposes, your social gender is the only one that truly counts in real life. Everything else has exceptions to the rules.

Your gender is not as arbitrary as your chromosomes, if it were, woman with AIS would have to be considered men, despite acting like woman, believing they ARE women, and for almost all practical purposes BEING woman to the point that a less advanced society would have nothing to base them being men on.

The point I'm getting at here, is chromosomes are just one aspect of the differences between men and woman, but it is neither the most important nor defining characteristic. To me at least, the defining and most important characteristic is whatever you present to be as in real life.

EDIT: One more thing though, if all the above isn't enough to convince you, there is a growing body of evidence that neurologically, and perhaps even genetically, MtF's and FtM's ARE intersexed to some extent, in a way that can be detected in the brain.

So is a MtF really a woman? Is an FtM really a man? In the ways that matter most? In my opinion, yes.
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Ms Bev

Quote from: asfsd4214 on September 14, 2009, 06:08:11 AM

Is gender social? That seems to ultimately be the only thing definitive. For all practical purposes, your social gender is the only one that truly counts in real life.

Your gender is not as arbitrary as your chromosomes, if it were, woman with AIS would have to be considered men, despite acting like woman, believing they ARE women


Interesting thing to note, just after my previous post, I went to bed and we flipped on the TV for a short while, and low and behold, in the episode of HOUSE on Fox network, a beautiful young woman was diagnosed with AIS.  And what was the response to their discovery?  House tells her she is a man...."a pseudo-hermaphrodite" 
"No...."she says..."I'm a beautiful girl"....sobs.......
"No....you're a man. Or a woman....the perfect woman....a man"   Then refers to her in a decidedly creeped-out way to the nurses attending as "her-she-him-whatever.....herm".  "At least her father will stop having sex with her, now that he knows  she's a guy"

So, kids......that's what really matters.  Today's society in general is all about being creeped out by transgender and transsexual PEOPLE, and have a tendency to treat us without the dignity we deserve as fellow people.
Why should Fox network  promote such a story line, unresolved bigotry included?  No, I'm not saying they should have to teach or preach, but they should be held accountable for portraying us as less than people, and  apparently honestly believing it themselves.

Another show.....a cop show....I dunno, maybe a year ago.  Detectives find a dead transwoman, legs splayed open on a makeshift operating table in a garage....abandoned, unreported.
Okay, so far, so good.  The poor woman is desperate enough to let a quack surgeon change her genitalia, and gives her life for it.  So.......the characters are shocked, sickened, saddened........so far, so good.
Then the detective interviews a transwoman friend.  He tells her he knows she's ts, and the jig's up.  So the transwoman 'comes clean', and begins speaking in her male voice....'her real voice'.
Things like this make me soooo angry!  And it won't change.  Society at large will view us as less than human as long as we allow it.

I've worked with a number of people who were creeped out, or thought me to be such a novelty that one guy brought his wife into the store under some pretense.  She came, she saw, she left, then minutes later, came for a second look.
I whispered to a female friend, "I usually sell tickets to my freak  show"
She said, "...please Bev......don't make a scene...."
I love her very much, but maybe, just maybe, I should have told him then and there....."I usually sell tickets"
Well, there's always a next time.   
I've determined to speak out, speak up, and be heard by anyone who verbalizes anything wrong about my gender or my sex, and then if they ask, teach them about it.  I certainly don't want situations like this, and generally spend my existence blending in with the rest of the real people.  But, until people are taught to treat us with the respect we deserve, we will remain 3rd-class citizens.  And, like I said, there's always a next time.

*Bristle*

Okay.....I'll get off the soap box for now.




Bev
1.) If you're skating on thin ice, you might as well dance. 
Bev
2.) The more I talk to my married friends, the more I
     appreciate  having a wife.
Marcy
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Asfsd4214

Quote from: Miss Bev on September 14, 2009, 08:42:53 AM
Interesting thing to note, just after my previous post, I went to bed and we flipped on the TV for a short while, and low and behold, in the episode of HOUSE on Fox network, a beautiful young woman was diagnosed with AIS.  And what was the response to their discovery?  House tells her she is a man...."a pseudo-hermaphrodite" 
"No...."she says..."I'm a beautiful girl"....sobs.......
"No....you're a man. Or a woman....the perfect woman....a man"   Then refers to her in a decidedly creeped-out way to the nurses attending as "her-she-him-whatever.....herm".  "At least her father will stop having sex with her, now that he knows  she's a guy"

So, kids......that's what really matters.  Today's society in general is all about being creeped out by transgender and transsexual PEOPLE, and have a tendency to treat us without the dignity we deserve as fellow people.
Why should Fox network  promote such a story line, unresolved bigotry included?  No, I'm not saying they should have to teach or preach, but they should be held accountable for portraying us as less than people, and  apparently honestly believing it themselves.

Another show.....a cop show....I dunno, maybe a year ago.  Detectives find a dead transwoman, legs splayed open on a makeshift operating table in a garage....abandoned, unreported.
Okay, so far, so good.  The poor woman is desperate enough to let a quack surgeon change her genitalia, and gives her life for it.  So.......the characters are shocked, sickened, saddened........so far, so good.
Then the detective interviews a transwoman friend.  He tells her he knows she's ts, and the jig's up.  So the transwoman 'comes clean', and begins speaking in her male voice....'her real voice'.
Things like this make me soooo angry!  And it won't change.  Society at large will view us as less than human as long as we allow it.

I've worked with a number of people who were creeped out, or thought me to be such a novelty that one guy brought his wife into the store under some pretense.  She came, she saw, she left, then minutes later, came for a second look.
I whispered to a female friend, "I usually sell tickets to my freak  show"
She said, "...please Bev......don't make a scene...."
I love her very much, but maybe, just maybe, I should have told him then and there....."I usually sell tickets"
Well, there's always a next time.   
I've determined to speak out, speak up, and be heard by anyone who verbalizes anything wrong about my gender or my sex, and then if they ask, teach them about it.  I certainly don't want situations like this, and generally spend my existence blending in with the rest of the real people.  But, until people are taught to treat us with the respect we deserve, we will remain 3rd-class citizens.  And, like I said, there's always a next time.

*Bristle*

Okay.....I'll get off the soap box for now.




Bev


I haven't properly begun transitioning myself (then again I hardly have anything approaching a normal life of either gender) so maybe I can't appreciate what you've gone through properly, and I am only a fraction of your age (going by your avatar), but I do think that the world doesn't revolve around us and has no obligation to be the way we might like. Do I agree or in any way support the implications made by those shows/the characters on those shows? Not at all, but it's (at least for the house example) a realistic portrayal of someones misguided reaction, and it's going to keep happening and the only way right way to change that is slowly over time. TV is just reflecting problems in society at large.

I guess what I'm getting at here is that we can't expect Fox or television writers to be politically correct or sensitive to every minority group. I just know from my own experiences being on the other side, talking to the persecutors instead of the persecuted, trying to force other people to be more politically sensitive will only make them want to be more aggressive against us.

Just sort of my feelings on the subject. I can't hold it against the writers of those shows for making television which the majority of the population would take no issue with. It's not their fault they're ignorant.  ;D

EDIT: Sorry BigLover going massively off topic.
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wannalivethetruth

Well..... you can't go around, finding more and MORE.. reasons that will only make you depressed......

I agree with the others......SEX is what's between your legs..(no need to repeat?)...

You really never know what science is doing behind closed doors for us....you just never know.... (dont say 40 years or so!, because you dont know either  :P) could be next week! 2 years from now.... 5 years... who knows??? Not us. We just have to be strong.... and one day we will be able to change the chromosomes....

You have to keep hope and just faith that everything will get better, not only for you..but for all of us.


BTW.....the avatar in the pic..... you might want to be...but beauty isn't how you look...it's more of how you act, these days you make yourself beautiful by feeling beautiful!
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gennee

Though I was born and socialized as male, I perceive myself as a transgender woman. Have felt that way all my life. What society says I'm am doesn't matter to me.

Miss Bev, I agree with you. One problem is that society sees us as sex objects, freaks, or worse. Most of these people have no clue as what we're about.

Gennee
Be who you are.
Make a difference by being a difference.   :)

Blog: www.difecta.blogspot.com
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K8

Miss Bev, your posts reminded me of a conversation I had with a friend this weekend. 

She was talking about her changing perception of transexuals.  Before meeting me, the only people she had ever been able to identify as TG were evidently male in rather outlandish female clothing.  She then said: But you're so normal

I just laughed and said: I am normal - a normal transsexual.  (I should have said: A normal person who is also transsexual, but I don't always say what I should. :P)

If the first [fill in the blank here] is an idiot, you think all [whatever] are idots.  Sometimes it seems we can only educate people one person at a time.  We are normal people, just as red-heads and left-handers are normal people.

BigLover,
I was born male and tried to live as male for many years.  I am becoming as much of a woman as I can, am working to get people to see me as a woman, but will I ever be a woman?  I don't know.  I'm not sure it's really relevant if in the process I can be who I really am.

- Kate
Life is a pilgrimage.
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bigbreastlover4269

I just went and skimmed though everyone's replies. I interpret being female as something other than the mind. It's the body.

I don't want to have a baby but I want to be able to! Okay! I'm glad I don't have to worry about menstuation a week every month, but a part of me want to go through that process. If only it were possible to get a uterus implant.
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wannalivethetruth

Quote from: BigLover on September 29, 2009, 08:38:17 AM
I just went and skimmed though everyone's replies. I interpret being female as something other than the mind. It's the body.

I don't want to have a baby but I want to be able to! Okay! I'm glad I don't have to worry about menstuation a week every month, but a part of me want to go through that process. If only it were possible to get a uterus implant.

like i said....NOBODY... ::) no one on this site... not one! knows the current setting of scientific  procedures about do this. It would be WONDERFUL... and who knows... it could be something they will come up with next month, year, or the year after! all we can do is just hold on the our wagons and.... just have hope!  :laugh:
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Nicky

Quote from: BigLover on September 29, 2009, 08:38:17 AM
I just went and skimmed though everyone's replies. I interpret being female as something other than the mind. It's the body.

You could go on fretting about definitions. Some definions would have you a woman, others won't. But when it comes down to it all that really matters is how you define yourself. Internal feeling is just as valid, if not more so, than any other means of deciding what you are. At the moment it sounds like your internal definition of what a woman is does not match who you are, yet part of you feels that you are or should be a woman.

Lots of women can't have kids yet they are still women. When you look at a woman you can't see their genes and you can't see your own therfore they are irrelevant. Some women have their breasts or uterus removed because of cancer yet they are still women. Some can't have chilldren, some women start out physically male and their body changes at puberty to become more female, they are still women. Some women are asexual, bisexual, pansexual, heterosexual, homosexual. They are all women still. Some women like to hunt and kill animals with their bare hands, they are still women. Some women are as flat as an ironing board while others have massive chests. Some women have excessive body hair, some are much stronger than men. Some have no hips, some have large shoulders. Some are fat, some are thin. Some women never go through puberty. Some are born without a vulva.  Some have a brow ridge. What is the common thread? It is not physical, it is not behavioural. Rather it self identification and expression of that personal self.

So you can decide that 'women' includes you and feel at home, or you can decide 'women' does not include you and forever feel sadened and conflicted about it, not meeting the grade yet feeling that is what you are regardless. You can change your perception of what a woman is to include yourself but you can't change what you feel as that woman, that bit won't change.

Of course you might decide you are a whole heap of other things too if that is what you feel you are.
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K8

Quote from: Nicky on September 29, 2009, 05:23:43 PM
You could go on fretting about definitions. Some definions would have you a woman, others won't. But when it comes down to it all that really matters is how you define yourself. Internal feeling is just as valid, if not more so, than any other means of deciding what you are. At the moment it sounds like your internal definition of what a woman is does not match who you are, yet part of you feels that you are or should be a woman.

So you can decide that 'women' includes you and feel at home, or you can decide 'women' does not include you and forever feel sadened and conflicted about it, not meeting the grade yet feeling that is what you are regardless. You can change your perception of what a woman is to include yourself but you can't change what you feel as that woman, that bit won't change.
feel you are.

Excuse me, Nicky, while I print this out in large letters and post it where I can see it every day.

Thanks. :D

- Kate
Life is a pilgrimage.
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Nicky

no problem  :icon_redface: :icon_flower:

in hindsite maybe 'woman' would have been better wording. Still works I think.
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Vancha

I don't think "being a woman" has anything to do with anatomy.  Being "female" does; being of the female sex relies upon reproductive organs.  It doesn't rely upon secondary sexual characteristics, and it doesn't rely upon brain, mind, or behavior.  Now, I have female anatomy, as do many FTMs - yet, I feel, if many were to sit down with us and get to know us, it would be an insult to womanhood to say that we are women.  :laugh:  Some more than others.  I really think society has entangled us in all of its definitions and generalization.  It puts such an emphasis on sex equaling gender, and it puts an emphasis on those gender roles being concrete, and traditional.  Gender is but a figment of human society's imagination; do female dogs act differently than male dogs, really?  Do they look altogether very different?  Better yet, with animals whose external genitalia and appearance are exactly the same - such as birds - are there gender roles at all?  I don't think so.  And better yet, if there were gender roles found in animals at all, why would we conform to them when we, as humans, are altogether at a different level than they?  There are no rules but what we create, so rather than hold ourselves back, perhaps we should free ourselves.
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K8

Quote from: V on October 01, 2009, 03:07:10 PM
I don't think "being a woman" has anything to do with anatomy.  Being "female" does; being of the female sex relies upon reproductive organs.  It doesn't rely upon secondary sexual characteristics, and it doesn't rely upon brain, mind, or behavior.  Now, I have female anatomy, as do many FTMs - yet, I feel, if many were to sit down with us and get to know us, it would be an insult to womanhood to say that we are women.  :laugh:  Some more than others.  I really think society has entangled us in all of its definitions and generalization.  It puts such an emphasis on sex equaling gender, and it puts an emphasis on those gender roles being concrete, and traditional.

You have a good point.  I had an obviously male body and so knew I was male, but I never considered myself a man.  And I failed Guy 101 before the class even started. ;)

- Kate
Life is a pilgrimage.
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