Why doesn't it click?

[Maddie Secutura]

Why doesn't the whole "I'm a girl" thing just not click with people.  It seems everyone I know has to get used to using the right pronouns.  When someone brings their dog to the park and you say "Oh can I pet him?" and they respond "Actually it's a girl dog." you don't keep calling the dog a him.  I know that's an oversimplification but it brings me to the point: if it doesn't come natural, if everyone has to keep thinking about it, if you constantly have to correct them time and time again, they clearly still see me as a boy.  It made me realize that while I'm doing my best to look and sound the part, my best isn't good enough.  In fact there is nothing I can do about it.  For even if they correct themselves on slip-ups the problem lies in the fact that they're slipping up in the first place.  It just doesn't click. 

Here are two scenarios:
First Scenario
A woman is an investigative journalist and wants to write a piece on life from a male perspective.  She passes well and gets 'he' and 'sir' just as she wants.  Then comes time to reveal herself that she's not actually a man.  No one is going to still call her "he" because they know she is a woman.  They might use the name she's been using for a while but they'll never see her as a man ever again.

Second Scenario
A woman is born biologically male.  Again she gets 'he' and 'sir' because she looks the part.  Next she has to tell everyone she is not actually male and begins to take on a more feminine appearance; to the point where she passes quite well.  However, she still gets referred to as 'he' in the occasional slip up.

No one slips up in the first case, why the hell do they do it in the second?

[Janet_Girl]

The reason, I think, is that if they have know the person as a 'he', their little closed minds can't wrap around the fact that 'he' is now a 'she'.  I don't know.  The ones that could not get it with me, got a very rude "That is 'she"" response.  I could care less if it hurt their little tiny feelings, they don't matter when they are that stupid.


Janet

[Butterfly]

Being born as male or female, the whole penis & vagina thing, once a man always a man, once a woman always a woman thing, has a powerful effect on people.  Most people can't see past that!

[Osiris]

I think it depends on the relationship. If someone built quite a bond with the person in the first scenario it would be very difficult to not use the pronoun of the gender they had first known this person as. I think the only way to really not slip up is to accept the first identity as a character and think of the person as someone else from then on. This is difficult to do when you have a strong bond with someone.

Trust me, even though I'm trans and can understand how much it can hurt to be referred to with the wrong pronouns I have slipped up on occasion when talking to my sibling who has considered transition and has since decided against it. But it wasn't that I didn't accept him or his gender identity. It was simply because my brain had connected him with that pronoun. It's very hard to reconnect this. That's why slip ups happen. It's not a lack of acceptance, or thinking that you're not really the gender you're transitioning to. It's simply a force of habit that's very hard to break.

[Northern Jane]

I see what you are saying Maddie and I think that is a REALLY good question.

I think it all comes down to the other person's understanding.

In the case of the reporter, when she reveals herself, everybody knows she is physically normal female, psychologically normal woman, and they can understand the concept of the disguise. She doesn't challenge their concept of physical/psychological harmony and the consistency of the homogeneous concept of sex/gender so she is no threat to others.

The transsexual DOES pose a treat because it is counter to the comfortable concept of physical/emotional congruency so people (albeit subconsciously) want to keep poking the person back into their physical sex.

[xsocialworker]

Sometimes it is voice. Having known hundreds of TS's coming through my former program, voice seems like the hardest thing to change. People may see a female, but if a male voice comes out, they switch pronouns.

[sneakersjay]

With those that knew you before it does take time.  I came out at work a year ago and just recently, like the last few weeks, realized I haven't heard a wrong pronoun in about a month or so.  It's almost like they've started to forget I was ever F.  But yeah, a year.  And it helps that I pass 100% and have some decent facial hair, so they get the visual also.

Hang in there.

Jay

[Silver]

Being born as male or female, the whole penis & vagina thing, once a man always a man, once a woman always a woman thing, has a powerful effect on people.  Most people can't see past that!

This.

If they ever thought of you as a man, or find out your birth sex they (assuming they're pretty closed-minded, as many are) will never think of you differently.

[K8]

I see what you are saying Maddie and I think that is a REALLY good question.

I think it all comes down to the other person's understanding.

In the case of the reporter, when she reveals herself, everybody knows she is physically normal female, psychologically normal woman, and they can understand the concept of the disguise. She doesn't challenge their concept of physical/psychological harmony and the consistency of the homogeneous concept of sex/gender so she is no threat to others.

The transsexual DOES pose a treat because it is counter to the comfortable concept of physical/emotional congruency so people (albeit subconsciously) want to keep poking the person back into their physical sex.

I think this is part of it. 

If the person knew you before transition, it can also be related to the depth of the relationship.  (That's why it is so hard within a family.)  I have a friend who is a linguist.  He says that the use of gendered pronouns becomes almost hard-wired into your language circuitry and so it is not really just habit and therefore very difficult to change.  (The learning and use of language is not always a conscious thing.  We are still learning how it all is wired in our brains.)

This may in part explain the two cases, too.  You know the reporter is a woman and so you make the change easily.  But you see the transsexual is somehow both and so the automatic response takes over unless consciously countermanded.

But yes, this is a very good question.

- Kate

[Teknoir]

I think it's got to do with your frame of reference.

I know if I encountered a male identified CD in full dress, I'd have to make an effort not to call him she, regardless of his passing ability. That's because I'm used to using pronouns in accordance with the presentation of the person, not their birth sex.

Those pain in the butt cisgendered people are used to using pronouns that line up with birth sex.

I've met one that just can't wrap their head around the concept of "Transsexual people like pronouns that reflect their internal / real / moving to gender" and instead stumbles though he / she / it dance every damn time one comes up in conversation. And they outright and flatly refuse to use the correct pronouns or name with me.

Animals don't always get it easy. I went to see a snake I'm buying. They didn't know what sex it was and assumed it was male. I got there, had a look, and it turned out to be female. I told everyone, but the snake still got male pronouns! 

[Maddie Secutura]

The answer to the question then seems that although people can accept that you are not filling the normal gender role assigned to your birth sex they they don't actually understand that you are not the gender your birth sex betrays you to be.

In the case of the reporter they understand the male mode was just a clever disguise and that has been shed for the true form.

In the second case, while they may be perfectly ok with it, they see you as shedding your true form for a clever disguise.

[K8]

In the second case, while they may be perfectly ok with it, they see you as shedding your true form for a clever disguise.

I don't think you can necessarily say that.  I think it is more that they see you shedding your past form for a new form that hasn't settled about you completely yet.

In some ways, our true gender is a construct within our own minds.  It is not always easy for others to see it, and certainly not with the clarity that we see it ourselves.  As we become more and more our true selves, those around us come to see us that way, too.  But I don't believe that someone who lived as a male and was socialized male for 30 or 40 years is, upon putting on a dress, automatically completely a woman in her own eyes or in the eyes of anyone else.  We have to peel off the layers of socialization and, as we do that, those around us begin to see our true gender more and more.  But it is a slow, gradual process.

I'm not trying to start an argument here.  I just think we have to cut a little slack to those who are struggling along as they follow our transition.  And it is a transition, not a transformation.  (Now a**h***s are another story... )

JMHO

- Kate

[FairyGirl]

My roommate had the hardest time with it for 2 reasons- first, she's known me for 12 years and second, she really did not want to give up her "male" friend. Since I first told her my new name months ago she always uses it, but she still sometimes slips with the pronouns. She corrects it right away, but when it's in front of others, especially strangers, once the "he, his, him" is out then the damage is done. For a while, she just took to using my name every time in place of using pronouns, specifically so she wouldn't slip up. I don't give her a hard time about it because I know she's trying. But like Jay and others said, for those that have known us for a while it can be difficult.

[Jeatyn]

I've met one that just can't wrap their head around the concept of "Transsexual people like pronouns that reflect their internal / real / moving to gender" and instead stumbles though he / she / it dance every damn time one comes up in conversation. And they outright and flatly refuse to use the correct pronouns or name with me.

I don't really have anything useful to add to this thread, I just wanted to say that I get the he/she/it dance every time with my sister. I just don't get it, why go through all the effort of doing that when a "he" is all I'm asking for. Her excuse is "well you're not really a he, I can't just say he" - so I'm an it, great

[Silver]

Her excuse is "well you're not really a he, I can't just say he" - so I'm an it, great

Ow.

[Teknoir]

Her excuse is "well you're not really a he, I can't just say he"

Yes, I get this too. Only from my mother. Everyone else is 100% a-ok.

I've also had the fun-fun-fun of hearing "You'll never be my son", "You'll always (only) be my daughter", "You were such a pretty girl", "I'm not going to introduce you as my son... ever" and that #1 classic old-time hit "I'll never see you as a man".

... order in the next 30 mins, and you'll receive free the limited edition "wallet containing picture of transman in drag"! This special TV offer only from Broken Records! 

[Keroppi]

I've also had the fun-fun-fun of hearing "You'll never be my son", "You'll always (only) be my daughter", "You were such a pretty girl", "I'm not going to introduce you as my son... ever" and that #1 classic old-time hit "I'll never see you as a man".

Obviously no one want to lose their family but the extreme response to "You'll never be my son" / "You'll always (only) be my daughter" - "I'm not your daughter, if I'm not your son, then I'm not your child."

[Chaos_Dagger]

Personally I think it all has to do with how they know and have known you.  As well as how open minded they are.

For example, by people who do not know me, I get refered to has "He" when not dressed.  When dressed I get refered to as "Her" easily it seems.  So far no one who I've not known has refered to me with the wrong pronoun depending on how I am presenting.

My father on the other hand, ALWAYS refers to me as "he".  Even when looking at a picture of me dressed his comment was "He makes a good girl."  Of course he refers to me this way mostly because he doesn't believe I'm going to actually transition (Which I may not depending on how things go with my wife [as much as I want to])  If I were to transition fully I'm sure he'd have no problem changing the pronoun.  He once even said (of course jokingly) when we were talking about it (and my brother tends to name him self "Emily" in games) "I've always wanted a daughter, and now I have three."

My wife's friend from her work always refers to me as "he" she has only seen me in person as "he".  Of course when she saw a picture of me dressed her reply was "Wow I wasn't expecting much to be honest, be he's hot as a woman.  If I didn't know him I'd have no issues accepting him as a her."  Of course she then commented on how my nose could use some work lol.  This however is one of the reasons why I believe it's all about how the person has met/known you.

I'm lucky enough to get different perspectives from my wife as well thanks to her MPD.  It seems most of her personalties constantly call me "he", however when I'm dressed they use the proper pronoun (outloud) no problem.  However in their head they are most likely still calling me "he".  However Savannah (the lesbian) ALWAYS calls me "her" no matter how I'm dressed.  Even when not bothering to present female she will still call me "her girl".


So yea it seems to be all about how well they know you and how they met you in my opinion