Why remove GID from DSM?

[Deanna_Renee]

I understand your postion, but let's look at it this way:

What if I have a design (the genes) to build a computer (a person), but I misinterpret the design and accidently put in the wrong processor (the brain) so the computer doesn't work? Is the processor suddenly broken? No it isn't, it's a perfectly ok processor. It's the mismatch between the processor and the rest of the computer that is the problem.

The same can be said about GID. The brain is perfectly ok. So is the body. It's the mismatch between the two that is the actual problem. I wouldn't call that a mental disorder.

A problem with this analogy is that once you turn on the power to the computer with a mismatched processor (brain), then the processor (brain) is, typically, damaged and rendered inoperable (a rather severe disorder of the brain, ie mental). I'm not arguing that GD is, or is not, a mental disorder, I honesty have no clue. I don't have a medical degree, I'm not a neurologist, I'm not a mental health professional. I would not be surprised if you asked people of each of those disciplines if it was medical, neurological or psychological each may be able to argue in favor of their own profession and be correct to some degree. I admit that in my limited understanding, it does not fall neatly within the confines of any mental disorder/illness, nor does it specifically fall into diagnosable medical conditions. It seems to be a very enigmatic condition that defies clearly accepted and definable differentiation between mental and physical - since it is somewhat both.

What we need is a new design apparently. I just read the proposed changes to the DSM that Zythyra posted (previous page) and there seems to be some advantage, though I don't know if it goes far enough.

Deanna

[YoungSoulRebel]

ADHD has the potential to hinder someone's ability to perform their duty as a member of the military.

Furthermore, people with ADHD CAN enlist, provided they have been medication free for one year prior to enlistment.

I fail to see how GID hinders my ability to serve as a member of the Armed Forces... seven years of service, thus far, and it hasn't impacted the quality of my service at all.

Considering that HRT is technically medication and, without it, many TS people would emotionally collapse, I can understand the reasoning.

But I'm also one of those anti-war loonies, and see this as a bit of a bonus.

I prefer YoungSoulRebel's analysis of rewriting the DSM and SOC to include more up to date information and define the treatment to be more definitive (HRT, SRS being a necessary path not optional). But, even this can have problems - if HRT and SRS are declared necessary treatment for GID, then those who don't want surgery will be 'required' to undergo this necessity.

Eh, if it were up to me and me alone to revise these things, I'd probably make HRT non-optional, but being FTM myself and understanding that many TS men prefer to skip GRS, I'd probably make the surgical requirements "the minimum procedures required by state for gender re-association" -- which, yes, for TS women is typically GRS-inclusive, but it's usually so vaguely worded to be inclusive of IS persons and TS men (I know Oregon, for example, simple requires "an irreversible surgical procedure") that I imagine if one really wanted to push it in court, FFS could prove "irreversible" enough.

2. GID is a mental disorder, as it states in the DSM.  If you want that diagnosis, you are free to accept it and all that it offers.  IGA is a physical condition.

My best friend would find certain aspects of her life as a person with bipolar disorder much easier if she wasn't classified as having a "mental disorder".  It's very much a physical one, as well, as she's had blood tests to prove that she has the biochemical component shared by nearly every other person with a diagnosis of "bipolar".  On the other hand, she can't deny the fact that bipolar disorder affects her mental state to such a degree that she's completely non-functional without her medication.  Similarly, cutting off my HRT would make me suicidal.

Furthermore, it's been my own experiences that a scant few TS people actually have any sort of biochemical component validating their claim that "this is a physical condition, not a mental one".  If you have proof of a physical component in yourself (and no, I'm not asking you to post it -- I'll take your word for it), then more power to you -- but considering that in ten years, the TS persons I've encountered who have voiced having had a chromosomal analysis (myself included) can be counted on one hand, I'm willing to put money on the notion that you probably have as much backing up your claims of "physical disorder" as I would have.

[Deanna_Renee]

Actually that makes the analogy even better, because the mismatch between body and brain also often 'breaks the brain' by causing mental disorders like for example depression.

Well, I guess it depends on which way you're arguing. For mental disorder - yes. For physical condition - not so much.

I agree with Miniar's explanation that the body is normal (male in my case) and the brain is normal (female for me) and that is where the problem lies.

There is no test that can say that there is a problem with me physically (unless your testing it for femaleness) and there is no test that can say there is a mental problem beyond the symptoms that I recount (depression, anxiety, hatred of my body, etc). Both are normal, they are just normally opposing. Drugs could be prescribed to deal with my depression, anxiety etc. but it wouldn't solve a damned thing (in my case). Changing my body is medically possible and appropriate to bring the two into balance. I don't know if there would be a way, or even if its an issue, of testing for a kind of allergic reaction/chemical reaction between the brain and the testosterone that is circulating my body produced by my male body. I have heard from so many TS people that after starting HRT there is a heightened sense of comfort of being 'right'. Perhaps that is largely where the imbalance is in the reaction to the dominant hormone and the brain. Since the body produces said dominant hormone, then changing the hormone and not the body would adversely affect the body, so GD would require HRT to bring the brain in balance and SRS/GRS etc would be needed to balance the body to the hormones.

Ideas?

Deanna

[YoungSoulRebel]

See, I honestly believed with all of my heart and soul for years and years that "this is a physical disorder, not a mental one".  I honestly believed that perhaps my anazing brain was just instinctively picking up on a chromosomal anomaly or an unheard-of hormonal imbalance, or that maybe an MRI or CAT-scan or some such could produce a brainwave pattern more-congruent with an otherwise typical homosexual man than it would with a heterosexual woman.

Then, in an effort to get my treatment covered through a potential loophole in Medicare and Medicaid, my doctor ordered a chromosomal analysis for diagnostic purposes.  I'm a basic XX.  Then she ordered a hormonal baseline; I'm in the "high normal" range (without HRT) for natal female, so just high enough to be potentially noteworthy in a study, but still too typical to be diagnosed with a hormonal imbalance.  I've never had a comparative brain-scan prior to HRT, so if there's a physical or neurological component, that may be all I have, but since I've never had it done, it's all just speculation -- not even good enough for a scientific hypothesis.

If other people want to continue to believe that they have a physical component that results in their own gender-sex incongruence, I suppose they're welcome to believe that, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence -- and I've seen nobody making any genuine claims that they can back their suppositions up with hard physical evidence, at least not in this thread.  I know all of three TS persons in my off-line life who can make claims to a physical component (two TS women and one TS man), but I've met and spoken to over a hundred TS persons at my local TS/TG group off-line, most of who have no real idea what a chromosomal analysis, hormonal diagnostics, or even brain-scan would produce for themselves, and a handful of individuals, like myself, who lament that have no physical component.

All TS persons have, by and large, is what we say -- very few TS persons, as a whole, have any kind of biochemical component validating their "instincts" that there is an incongruence between physical sex and mental gender identity.  And if there's nothing physical / biochemical causing this incongruence, then it's mental -- and logically, if it's not "allowed" to be mental, then we have nothing and will be denied proper treatment.

As I said, I have no prejudices as to what being listed in the DSM actually means.  I have other reasons to be listed in the DSM, as so some of my non-TS friends.  Having a DSM listing that fits doesn't make one "crazy" and it doesn't automatically make one incompetent -- all it means is that there is something atypical about how one's brain operates when compared to everybody else, and that one may need specific treatments (such as medications for severely bipolar persons) in order to live one's life to the fullest.

Think about this hypothetical situation:
GID is completely removed from the DSM -- it's now viewed as a completely physical disorder, etc, etc....  Suddenly overnight, TS persons all over the United States are ordered to have chromosomal anaylses to judge qualifications for diagnosis.  All pre-op, post-ho TS persons are ordered off HRT for a period of four weeks to purge the body of excess hormones in order to do hormonal analyses and brain-scans.  Then, suddenly (using my off-line experiences to figure a percentage rate) 97% of TS persons are judged ineligible for treatment!  "You're not a transsexual," we're all told, "here's some anti-depressants for your anxiety. I recommend intensive therapy to get this idea out of your head.  You can take it or leave it, but until you pass through treatment, I'm diagnosing you as schizotypial."

That's the most-likely scenario if we have GID completely removed from the DSM -- now we're all just having "bizarre beliefs outside subcultural norms" and having "unusual perceptions of reality, including bodily illusions".  Well, all of us but that less-than-10% who actually seems to have a bona-fide physical component.


There is nothing wrong at all with including GID in the DSM, in and of itself.  All that needs changed is the wording and the recommended treatment options.  All most TS persons have is DSM criteria for GID.  The DSM in its current form already excludes IS persons (meaning the few people I know probably had that diagnosis dropped after this discovery), so if being TS is just another form of IS, then why are there so many TS persons who lack a physical component?

[Julie Marie]

If you wouldn't mind clarifying the, I guess functional, differences between GD and IGA?

Deanna, I want to make this clear, IGA or Incomplete Gender Assimilation, is a term I created for this thread primarily for the purpose of allowing those who don't identify their challenge as being a mental disorder.  To the best of my knowledge, you won't find anything anywhere about it other than what is in this thread.

In the last 50+ years a lot has changed in the recognition, acceptance and treatment of gender related issues.  It's been an evolutionary process brought about through trial & error, study, education and awareness.  The Internet sent this process into hyper-drive.  But there's still a lot to be done.

I doubt there's many TSs who wouldn't have liked to have begun HRT early in their life so they wouldn't have had to deal with physical maturation in the wrong gender and all that goes with it.  But the idea of doing that is in direct conflict with the general consensus that holds genitalia so sacred.  There have been a few instances where early hormone intervention has been done but we're a far cry from that being the accepted form of treatment.

The older you are, the less making changes in the way gender related issues are handled will affect your life.  And vice-versa.  But if there's a push from the TG community to categorize gender transition as a medical issue and remove it from being a mental disorder, it will have a positive effect and a lot faster than taking a passive approach.

But first we need social acceptance and that won't come easily.  People have been conditioned to believe this is wrong, religiously, morally, ethically and naturally (by Nature's Law).  And if they can refer to a book of mental disorders and say, "See!  You have a mental problem!" it will make it a lot easier on them.  They won't have to deal with their ignorance.  They won't have to learn something which is contrary to what their parents, teachers and friends told them.  Their social order will remain intact.

Remove GID from the DSM.  Eliminate it as a term altogether, since it has the word "disorder" in it.  Replace it with a term that more properly defines the condition where the body doesn't match brain gender.  I created "Incomplete Gender Assimilation" for that purpose.  Establish a set of treatment options for physicians to follow.  Revamp the SOC so it too eliminates GID and is as up to date as possible with what we know now, now what we thought we knew.

Another suggestion, drop all reference to any word that has a negative stigma attached to it and create new ones and use those exclusively.  It's usually pretty effective and a hell of a lot easier than trying to change society's image of the existing words & terms.

Julie

[YoungSoulRebel]

But if there's a push from the TG community to categorize gender transition as a medical issue and remove it from being a mental disorder, it will have a positive effect and a lot faster than taking a passive approach.

[snip]

Remove GID from the DSM.  Eliminate it as a term altogether, since it has the word "disorder" in it.   Replace it with a term that more properly defines the condition where the body doesn't match brain gender.

1) How do you propose defining TS persons as having a "medical issue"?  How do you propose those who do not meet your diagnostic criteria be treated?

2) What's wrong with having a disorder?  Most people with bipolar disorder are just fine when given the proper medications; in fact, you'd hardly guess that, under proper medications, that they have any disorder at all.  I myself have Attendtion-Deficiet/Hyperactive Disorder, but I've found a way to make this manageable for my lifestyle, so in most circumstances, the average person would hardly guess that I had any sort of disorder.  Another friend of mine has a sleep disorder that she is managing in her own way.

I don't see anything wrong with having a disorder except in the eyes of the prejudiced.

And what you continue to describe sounds like the basic definition of any kind of clinical disorder -- "something is functionally atypical about this person".  If you have a problem with the word "disorder", then I think that may be nothing more than a prejudice on your part that needs to be examined and rectified.  Most people really don't attach all the stigmas to it that you've been doing here.

[Janet_Girl]

Fibromyalgia is a set of symptoms and is a MUPS.  Transsexuality is a set of symptoms, therefore it is also a MUPS.  Transsexualism is just like Fibromyalgia, a medical condition.

Medically unexplained physical symptoms (MUPS) or medically unexplained symptoms (MUS) are patient symptoms for which the treating physician, other healthcare providers, and research scientists have found no medical cause. The term does not necessarily imply that a physical cause does not exist, but rather notes that cause(s) for given symptoms are uncertain, unknown or disputed

It isn't a mental disorder, but medically unexplained physical symptom.  The treatment is a medical approach.  Hormone Replacement Therapy, , Gender Reconstruction Surgery ( Mastectomy, Hysterectomy, Phalloplasty for the guys )( Orchidectomy, Vaginoplasty, Breast Augmentation, Facial Feminization Surgery for us girls ).  All of these are medical procedures.  The only reason it is a mental disorder is because they ask "Who in their 'right' mind would want to remove their genitalia".  They already think we are nuts.  And the medical community and their malpractice insurance carriers are afraid that they will be sued.


Janet

[Miniar]

Fibromyalgia has Physical pain, and Physical symptoms.

Transsexualism has Emotional/Psychological pain, and Emotional/Psychological symptoms.

[Janet_Girl]

For many years the medical community treated it as if it was all in the patent's head, and referred the patients to psychiatry.  I know because my ex was told that for years and the only thing they ever gave her was Prozac, Wellbutrin, Zoloft and other anti-depressants.  My ex was given disability because the SSA said she has major depression.

Now they have new medications for it.  It is just now becoming main stream medicine.  Fibro is as real as Transsexuality.  Yes, suffers of Fibro have debilitating physical pain, bouts of depression.  While we may not have physical symptoms, it is still treated by medical institutions.

I use Fibro because it is a set of symptoms as is Transsexualism.  Yes they are true physical symptoms, and I do not make light of it.  You may dear Min suffer from it, so does my ex.  I know and have seen the results of Fibro.  And I have said for a long time they need to set Fibro as a true medical condition.  They should do the same for Trans.


Janet

[Miniar]

I agree that setting as a true medical condition is a good idea and I'd like to work towards that, but that's not gonna happen automatically if it's removed from the DSM.

Whereas, if it does get acknowledged as a true medical condition, then removal from DSM will in all probability follow.

And Fibro is a poor comparison in my opinion because the physical symptoms for serious sufferers can be obvious, whereas no one can see you "limp" from psychological pain.

[Janet_Girl]

I use it for two reasons.  1) I know it personally, because of my ex and now you, dear friend.  2) It is a set of symptoms, all be it physical, just a Trans.

No offense meant, I hope none taken.  And you are right it would need to be medically recognized before it would be removed.  Even the AMA says so.


Janet

[Steph]

Fibromyalgia is a set of symptoms and is a MUPS.  Transsexuality is a set of symptoms, therefore it is also a MUPS.  Transsexualism is just like Fibromyalgia, a medical condition.

It isn't a mental disorder, but medically unexplained physical symptom.  The treatment is a medical approach.  Hormone Replacement Therapy, , Gender Reconstruction Surgery ( Mastectomy, Hysterectomy, Phalloplasty for the guys )( Orchidectomy, Vaginoplasty, Breast Augmentation, Facial Feminization Surgery for us girls ).  All of these are medical procedures.  The only reason it is a mental disorder is because they ask "Who in their 'right' mind would want to remove their genitalia".  They already think we are nuts.  And the medical community and their malpractice insurance carriers are afraid that they will be sued.


Janet

I'm sorry Janet but the more we try to self analyze and self diagnose the more confusing the whole topic becomes.  And not meaning to seem insensitive to anyone but it seems to me that it is those who can't get funding, those who don't have the insurance (US folks mostly), those who have barriers to treatment that want to GID delisted.

I wholeheartedly agree with YoungSoulRebel and echo his arguments and logic.  One of the issues that is prevalent in all these arguments is the TS resentment of being labeled with a "Mental Disorder" and the stigmas' attached to such labelling.  This is a quote from the Mayo Clinic on the stigmas associated with Mental Health:

Stigma may be obvious and direct, such someone making a negative remark about your mental health condition or your treatment. Or it can be subtle, such a someone assuming you could be violent or dangerous because you have a mental health condition. These and other forms of stigma can lead to feelings of anger, frustration, shame and low self-esteem — as well as discrimination at work, school and in other areas of your life. For someone with a mental illness, the consequences of stigma can be devastating. Some of the harmful effects of stigma include:

Trying to pretend nothing is wrong
Refusal to seek treatment
Rejection by family and friends
Work or school problems or discrimination
Difficulty finding housing
Being subjected to physical violence or harassment
Inadequate health insurance coverage of mental illnesses

Sound familiar...

-={LR}=-

[Miniar]

^^ I almost never take offense.

And I do hope people aren't too offended by my opinion.

[Shana A]

I am in favor of removing GID from the DSM as a mental disorder. My gender is not a mental illness or a disease. If anything, I see my gender variance as a spiritual path. What we now call "transgender" has existed throughout history. The only disorder is our modern society's inability to recognize and accept the full diversity of the gender spectrum.

I do support it being classified in such a way so that people can have HRT, surgeries, etc., covered by insurance.

Z

[Steph]

I am in favor of removing GID from the DSM as a mental disorder. My gender is not a mental illness or a disease. If anything, I see my gender variance as a spiritual path. What we now call "transgender" has existed throughout history. The only disorder is our modern society's inability to recognize and accept the full diversity of the gender spectrum.

I do support it being classified in such a way so that people can have HRT, surgeries, etc., covered by insurance.

Z

Two points...

I thought Transgender was an umbrella term that includes everyone on this site from CD's, TV's, IS, TS, etc.  Surely there are some in this group who don't require any form of treatment nor is it prescribed or warranted?

Next...

Why does it need to be covered by Insurance.  Shouldn't those diagnosed be provided the care they need to live normal lives regardless of their financial status?

-={LR}=-

[Asfsd4214]

See, I honestly believed with all of my heart and soul for years and years that "this is a physical disorder, not a mental one".  I honestly believed that perhaps my anazing brain was just instinctively picking up on a chromosomal anomaly or an unheard-of hormonal imbalance, or that maybe an MRI or CAT-scan or some such could produce a brainwave pattern more-congruent with an otherwise typical homosexual man than it would with a heterosexual woman.

Then, in an effort to get my treatment covered through a potential loophole in Medicare and Medicaid, my doctor ordered a chromosomal analysis for diagnostic purposes.  I'm a basic XX.  Then she ordered a hormonal baseline; I'm in the "high normal" range (without HRT) for natal female, so just high enough to be potentially noteworthy in a study, but still too typical to be diagnosed with a hormonal imbalance.  I've never had a comparative brain-scan prior to HRT, so if there's a physical or neurological component, that may be all I have, but since I've never had it done, it's all just speculation -- not even good enough for a scientific hypothesis.

If other people want to continue to believe that they have a physical component that results in their own gender-sex incongruence, I suppose they're welcome to believe that, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence -- and I've seen nobody making any genuine claims that they can back their suppositions up with hard physical evidence, at least not in this thread.  I know all of three TS persons in my off-line life who can make claims to a physical component (two TS women and one TS man), but I've met and spoken to over a hundred TS persons at my local TS/TG group off-line, most of who have no real idea what a chromosomal analysis, hormonal diagnostics, or even brain-scan would produce for themselves, and a handful of individuals, like myself, who lament that have no physical component.

All TS persons have, by and large, is what we say -- very few TS persons, as a whole, have any kind of biochemical component validating their "instincts" that there is an incongruence between physical sex and mental gender identity.  And if there's nothing physical / biochemical causing this incongruence, then it's mental -- and logically, if it's not "allowed" to be mental, then we have nothing and will be denied proper treatment.

Very few Ts persons, as a whole, have any kind of biochemical component validating their "intrinsics" that they know of.

The fact we haven't found with enough certainty what the physical component is, is not proof that one doesn't exist. What little research has been done however, continues to lead in that direction.

As I said, I have no prejudices as to what being listed in the DSM actually means.  I have other reasons to be listed in the DSM, as so some of my non-TS friends.  Having a DSM listing that fits doesn't make one "crazy" and it doesn't automatically make one incompetent -- all it means is that there is something atypical about how one's brain operates when compared to everybody else, and that one may need specific treatments (such as medications for severely bipolar persons) in order to live one's life to the fullest.

Think about this hypothetical situation:
GID is completely removed from the DSM -- it's now viewed as a completely physical disorder, etc, etc....  Suddenly overnight, TS persons all over the United States are ordered to have chromosomal anaylses to judge qualifications for diagnosis.  All pre-op, post-ho TS persons are ordered off HRT for a period of four weeks to purge the body of excess hormones in order to do hormonal analyses and brain-scans.  Then, suddenly (using my off-line experiences to figure a percentage rate) 97% of TS persons are judged ineligible for treatment!  "You're not a transsexual," we're all told, "here's some anti-depressants for your anxiety. I recommend intensive therapy to get this idea out of your head.  You can take it or leave it, but until you pass through treatment, I'm diagnosing you as schizotypial."

That's the most-likely scenario if we have GID completely removed from the DSM -- now we're all just having "bizarre beliefs outside subcultural norms" and having "unusual perceptions of reality, including bodily illusions".  Well, all of us but that less-than-10% who actually seems to have a bona-fide physical component.

No, that scenario is nothing short of preposterous and easily the least likely scenario from such a situation.

We already know that chromosomes aren't an absolute 100% rule governing gender identity, mental OR physical, complete androgen insensitivity syndrome is nothing short of proof of that fact.

We already know hormonal irregularities have little or nothing to do with gender identity, you only need to look at examples like the John Money incident to see that. And increasing natal hormone levels has already been tried in the past to treat TS, to no success.

And because there is no proof either of those have anything to do with gender identity, which is what we're really talking about, no such absurd "overnight crackdown on TS's" would take place, and that's really one of the more minor reasons for that scenario being preposterous.

Your scenario only makes the slightest bit of sense if you assume that there has to be an easily detectable example of one of the intersex medical conditions we already know about for a persons cross gender identity to have a physical basis, which is just ridiculous.

Examples like the John Money experiment give cause to believe that there is such a thing as brain sex. The key word there being "brain" sex. Chromosomes can't be assumed to indicate brain sex anymore than they absolutely dictate physical sex.

Your hypothetical seems to work under the reasoning that only if someone has an already recognized intersex condition could they get a "choice" in gender identity (by choice I mean a choice between conforming to societies expectations of a simplistic gender binary, and being able to express your internal gender identity). Which simply doesn't make any sense.

I will say this again, a lack of solid, extensive evidence for a physical basis is NOT evidence that one does not exist, not when the lack of solid, extensive evidence can be easily explained by a lack of solid, extensive research.

There is nothing wrong at all with including GID in the DSM, in and of itself.  All that needs changed is the wording and the recommended treatment options.  All most TS persons have is DSM criteria for GID.  The DSM in its current form already excludes IS persons (meaning the few people I know probably had that diagnosis dropped after this discovery), so if being TS is just another form of IS, then why are there so many TS persons who lack a physical component?

How do you know that so many Ts persons lack a physical component? Because of a lack of chromosomal irregularities which would have no more to do with intersex brain structures than they have to do with other intersex physical characteristics? Because of a lack of post-natal hormone levels which would have even less to do with it?

If there's such a thing as brain sex, then that is what needs to be discovered and checked for. But I don't think making a blind assumption that it's a mental disorder until then is a good situation for us to be in, especially when what little research has been done points in the direction that it is not.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7689007.stm
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/B6TBX-4H16P9S-1/2/ae91dff18b1b99385054e3bf971d47f9
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034

The third one's perhaps the most interesting.

[YoungSoulRebel]

Fibromyalgia has Physical pain, and Physical symptoms.

Transsexualism has Emotional/Psychological pain, and Emotional/Psychological symptoms.

This.  Fibromyalgia isn't even comparable to what I'm going through as a TS person.  Aside from having a pre-op chest that was causing scoliosis, there are absolutely no physical symptoms.

I agree that setting as a true medical condition is a good idea and I'd like to work towards that, but that's not gonna happen automatically if it's removed from the DSM.

Whereas, if it does get acknowledged as a true medical condition, then removal from DSM will in all probability follow.

Yes, that's pretty much how the process works.  There has to be an establishment as a "physical condition" before it's to be removed from the DSM.

And Fibro is a poor comparison in my opinion because the physical symptoms for serious sufferers can be obvious, whereas no one can see you "limp" from psychological pain.

And not only that, the current technology that would diagnose somebody physically are either DNA/chromosomal analysis, *or* a hormonal imbalance, or *possibly* comparative EEG brainwave scans (I stand corrected from my previous statement for MRI or CAT scans; I now know better).  In my experiences, most TS people don't really get any of those diagnostic tests performed, and I myself have only two out of three.  If all of my supposition for how my EEG results may look fail out, then by physical means, this means my instincts as to what my gender is are somehow wrong.  Flailing on about how "it's a physical condition" without any proof that it really is a physical condition -- furthermore, Down Syndrome is in the DSM-IV (as a Cognative Disorder) and has a proved physical component (chromosomal), so even if I can prove biochemically or through neurodiagnostic procedures such as EEG, that doesn't remove the mental/emotional component.

I'm sorry Janet but the more we try to self analyze and self diagnose the more confusing the whole topic becomes.  And not meaning to seem insensitive to anyone but it seems to me that it is those who can't get funding, those who don't have the insurance (US folks mostly), those who have barriers to treatment that want to GID delisted.

Yes, I've noticed that this is typically a US-specific rallying cry.  This is a non-issue to persons in Canada, the UK, Scandanavia, Germany, and elsewhere that the proper treatment of TS individuals (and by "proper treatment", I mean "by allowing means for a physical transition") is covered under those countris' NHS.

The reason it's not typically covered in the U$ has more to do with now-antiquated survey of the now-obsolete and malicious "gender clinics" that shut down the in 1970s.  Those "old school" gender clinics concentrated completely on TS women --despite other countries recognising TS men since the 1940s (the UK being the first country to perform FTM phalloplasty), the U$ recognised *only* TS women until 1977 *25 years after Christine Jourgensen*-- and practically shamed these poor women into moving away, cutting off all familial and social ties, and going "deep stealth", then proceeded to practically make these women compete to be who could be more sexually attractive to the doctors.  Needless to say, with all of that shaming and isolation, the suicide rates were abnormally high and the clinics shut down before any proper investigation could be conducted.  I met one of those women who survived the "old school", and it was absolutely horrid.

Prior to a late-1970s survey that revealed high suicide rates amongst those at the gender clinics, it was supposedly rather easy to get US insurances to cover treatment through various technicalities.  But in the UK, Canada, etc... -- TS treatments are covered under the NHS and all private insurance agencies (because what insurance agency wants an NHS to show them up, right?); and it's covered under these NHS' as a mental/emotional disorder.  This is a non-issue for much of the Western world.  The problem is not that it's a DSM listing, the problem is that the US recommended care for TS persons is such crap that it's pretty much the only "mental / emotional disorder" that is consistently afforded little or no treatment at all.

I wholeheartedly agree with YoungSoulRebel and echo his arguments and logic.  One of the issues that is prevalent in all these arguments is the TS resentment of being labeled with a "Mental Disorder" and the stigmas' attached to such labelling.  This is a quote from the Mayo Clinic on the stigmas associated with Mental Health:

Sound familiar...

-={LR}=-

As I've said before, maybe it's because I meet other DSM criteria and because I've been around people who've met all sorts of DSM criteria my whole life -- but I don't have any form of resentment toward the term "mental disorder" or "emotional disorder".  All it means is that there is a developmental quirk that, at some point in my neurological maturation, made me atypical in a certain kind of way, and so there are certain things that I can do to greatly improve my potential for happiness; if I don't do those things, then my potential for happiness will be greatly diminished.  It's like my bipolar friend -- she has a mental disorder, but her potential for happiness is greatly improved under proper medicative treatments.

And not to sound like a weiner, but I've noticed that a lot of the most vocal people insisting that there's "no disorder" seem, well, older.  I think there are more people of older generations who've retained certain internalised stigmas about the term "mental disorder" than people of my age or younger.  Seriously, I was just at the local TS/TG group earlier this evening, and it seems that it was mostly the older people ranting and raving about how they're "not disordered", but it was mostly the younger people who seemed to be of the opinion that "there's nothing wrong with having a mental disorder, it's just something that people sometimes have to deal with".


With the current technology and the current knowledge of the medical community, being listed in the DSM is all us TS people have to get treatment; in countries like Iceland and the UK, DSM listing is the only guarantee of treatment, if not the only avenue entirely for treatment that TS persons have.  It's therefore not the DSM listing that's the problem -- it's the system put in play to treat people with mental disorders in the US has rendered being TS the only classified mental disorder that is consistently refused proper treatment.

I'm going to take a laundry break now.  If i keep going, i can easily produce a rant about how "...and this is why Capitalism fails..." -- but I'll spare you.
Post Merge: October 26, 2009, 10:52:39 PM
oh jeez...

sORRY, BUT REALLY BOWING OUT AFTER THIS: (oops, capslock...)


asfsd4214:
You're going on nothing but supposition and hypothesis here.  I'm sorry, but you are.  I can produce you just as many papers with opposite results, rendering the whole of these "compelling studies" inconclusive.


I find it far more telling that all of the anti-DSM persons have so far been Amerikans.  That says far more to me than any hypothesis you can queue up on the Internet.

[Shana A]

Two points...

I thought Transgender was an umbrella term that includes everyone on this site from CD's, TV's, IS, TS, etc.  Surely there are some in this group who don't require any form of treatment nor is it prescribed or warranted?

Absolutely true. If a person doesn't want surgeries, hrt, they shouldn't be required to undergo them to be recognized as their gender. Likewise, those that want/need treatment should be able to get it.

Next...

Why does it need to be covered by Insurance.  Shouldn't those diagnosed be provided the care they need to live normal lives regardless of their financial status?

-={LR}=-

I live in USA, and am among the 45+ million without health insurance. I've paid for all of my transition related health care out of pocket, or gone without it. Personally, I would like to see a single payer system, but doubt that we'll get it due to powerful insurance and pharmaceutical interests. At this point we'll be lucky to get a public option.

Yes, those of us diagnosed as trans should be able to receive the care we need regardless of financial status. Unfortunately this isn't the case. I speak from personal experience.

Z

[Julie Marie]

I live in USA, and am among the 45+ million without health insurance. I've paid for all of my transition related health care out of pocket, or gone without it.

I have full health insurance coverage EXCEPT for what my union calls "sex transferral".  Once they suspected what was going on they've been watching me like a hawk and denied even covered medical expenses requiring me to fight them on it.  As for my "sex transferral" costs - all $50,000+, out of pocket.  But they would have paid for therapy forever, regardless of the cost, because I'm mentally disturbed.

For anyone who wants to say they have a mental disorder, you may too enjoy the same discrimination I have.  Enjoy!

Julie

[Asfsd4214]

asfsd4214:
You're going on nothing but supposition and hypothesis here.  I'm sorry, but you are.  I can produce you just as many papers with opposite results, rendering the whole of these "compelling studies" inconclusive.


I find it far more telling that all of the anti-DSM persons have so far been Amerikans.  That says far more to me than any hypothesis you can queue up on the Internet.

The theories regarding the causes of GID purely as a mental disorder are ALSO nothing but supposition and hypothesis, even less grounded in science that the theories that it's not.

As for papers producing the opposite results, since you won't produce them I will simply say this. If you are searching for the cause of something, of course you will likely come across many dead ends and things to rule out before finding the answers. A lack of evidence is not proof evidence yet to be discovered doesn't exist. I have said this countless times on this thread.

And for your information, I'm Australian, born and raised. And I like the US. 

You seem to have a tendency for making assumptions based on absolutely nothing.

But what do I know, apparently I'm just a stupid American.  News to me, but whatever.

Perhaps you feel that a lack of evidence that there are Non-American's against the DSM is proof that they don't exist.