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Do we need a spirituality of our own?

Started by Witch of Sadness, November 01, 2006, 06:34:08 PM

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Witch of Sadness

Hi Folks,

I came to this question when I talked with Vivien. Vivien was transsexual like me and is a witch like me. She makes consultations for transsexual people. She has noticed that much TS/TG/IS which has a religious background, looks for a religious home (church or anything like that), which she thought is rare to find since they are usually declined because of their identity.
We talked about it as such a group could look and what should be a part of this group certainly. I would like to refer these questions to you. Do we need a spirituality of our own? If yes, how it should be?

Wos
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tinkerbell

Quote from: Witch of Sadness on November 01, 2006, 06:34:08 PM

Vivien was transsexual like me and is a witch like me. Wos


May I ask what type of witch you are?

tinkerbell :icon_chick:
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Cindi Jones

Quote from: Witch of Sadness on November 01, 2006, 06:34:08 PM
Do we need a spirituality of our own? If yes, how it should be?

Wos

What would you like it to be?  Here is the thing WOS... if you depend on someone else to give you your spiritual feed, it will be their version of what is right.  That does happen and millions follow.  But someone decides what it should be.  Why can't that person be you?

Cindi
Author of Squirrel Cage
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Witch of Sadness

@ Tinkerbell,

QuoteMay I ask what type of witch you are?

I would like to thank you for the wonderful pictures which you always have among your Posts at first. But now your question. I am a dianic witch (feminist witch) and without a coven (we call this "free flying"). I recently celebrated Samhain (Halloween), our highest holiday as witches.

@ Cindi,

Quoteif you depend on someone else to give you your spiritual feed, it will be their version of what is right.

Of course it will be their version. And, if we get to know our different ideas of spirituality, we can see for what all of us long. I as a politically left thinking dyke will have another vision of spirituality as a very conservative heterosexual woman with 18 children. But this is also well so!

QuoteWhy can't that person be you?

We are all individuals, Cindi! And we have a right to our differences! I want to be different for nobody and I am sure, you wouldn't want to be like me either(at least not weigh 300 pounds). But I think that all of us have our ideas of what our own spirituality could or should be. Our spirituality and, if many see the intersection saying we know what they can imagine spiritually, where everyone meets and this then would be one. And if many say what they can imagine spiritually; if we can see the intersection, where everyone meets; and this then would be a part of our spirituality. This isn't, said other forms of the spirituality would be excluded for it. But it is said that this belongs "to us". This spirituality also can belong to others but she would be a part of our identity!! So I see it. How do you see it?

@ Helen W.,

You don't have posted here but I always nevertheless write here to you, too, cause I cannot answer your message  for which reasons ever. And I can't see your profile, too!
Well, I think that I must improve my English again; and get from my memory all my knowledge  out again. My English is no longer as good as it was in the year 1979 when I lived in Idaho. And my German is also very lousy!
I somehow am nowhere at home!


WoS
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Genevieve

Hello there WOS,

I am newly on the Wiccan path. I've tried various flavors of Christianity all of my life and never really felt it was to my liking. I like Wicca because we don't rely on others to guide our active life. We make our own decisions but we learn to think for ourselves about what the impact of those decisions will be upon the world.

This really isn't plug for Wicca though.

I believe we all need to find that place where we find acceptance through self-acceptance. In other words, if we see a religion or philosophy that looks like it will fulfill our needs and yet we do not see aspects of that belief-set that will allow for our existance, then it will be doubtful that we will find self-acceptance there and will probably move on. There are very few large organizational religions where we as T people will see ourselves in a positive context, therefore we keep looking.

This is not to say there aren't members of us in all religions. We decide what we are comfortable with and what we accept. You may see yourself as a creation of the Christian God that has been delt challenges so that you can become stronger in your faith for example. I view myself as being one of nature's expressions of both the Goddess and the God and in transition from one to the other, God to Goddess. I'm not saying I am the God or Goddess, but that I am a product of nature and the Earth and that I was made to do this transition in honor of the Goddess.

I guess what I'm saying is, find your own spiritual place in the world. Only you can choose the path upon which you walk.

*hugs*

Genevieve
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Witch of Sadness

Dear Genevieve,

A wonderful first name! French, isn't it?

QuoteI am newly on the Wiccan path. I've tried various flavors of Christianity all of my life and never really felt it was to my liking. I like Wicca because we don't rely on others to guide our active life. We make our own decisions but we learn to think for ourselves about what the impact of those decisions will be upon the world.

This was also my experience when I started to go the path of the Wiccan. It was hard to think independently because I was not used to it and to decide itself on my life for me. Does your Coven represent a particular direction of the path or are you work alone?

QuoteI believe we all need to find that place where we find acceptance through self-acceptance. In other words, if we see a religion or philosophy that looks like it will fulfill our needs and yet we do not see aspects of that belief-set that will allow for our existance, then it will be doubtful that we will find self-acceptance there and will probably move on. There are very few large organizational religions where we as T people will see ourselves in a positive context, therefore we keep looking.

I see it also so! I only doubt that there are "Christian" churches/sects/cults which accept us. Most of these churches represent what Arlene Rich mentioned "coercive heterosexuality". Everything which differs from it is watched suspiciously and often sentenced.

QuoteThis is not to say there aren't members of us in all religions. We decide what we are comfortable with and what we accept. You may see yourself as a creation of the Christian God that has been delt challenges so that you can become stronger in your faith for example. I view myself as being one of nature's expressions of both the Goddess and the God and in transition from one to the other, God to Goddess. I'm not saying I am the God or Goddess, but that I am a product of nature and the Earth and that I was made to do this transition in honor of the Goddess.

There is many of us in all possible religions. We often love these churches, too, even if they kick us in our bottom! We would like in our families,  friendships and churches are accepted and often experience, that others can or don't want accept us.
All of us are marked by our education and the society in which we live! And so as others see us, we often see ourselves. Somebody then found out that he/she is transsexual, the confusion is great. And the problems then begin. And who wins at the end decides how the life goes on!
I thought at the Mormons I must behave so, the Mormons expected it. I got ill and suicide endangered. Only when the Mormons had excommunicated me because of the TS, I found the courage to live a self certain life.
I don't have as a dianic witch found the entry to gods, but primarily to the goddess. Male energies aren't so important to me (unless at the two sun turning round celebrations). All of us are a product of the earth and everyone comes from something what people call the "divine". It be now one God or a goddess or simple only energy or evolution!
Do you by the way knew,  that there are gods and goddesses which unites the two sexes (e.g. Atis or Hel) in herself/himself?
First after my transition when I found the goddess, I understood my feelings to be a woman! I only then understood, for it it was something natural which I felt; and my feelings of guilt disappeared. Live today and I work in honor of the goddess Artemis/Diana and live more consciously than I had ever done it before!

QuoteI guess what I'm saying is, find your own spiritual place in the world. Only you can choose the path upon which you walk.

I also think this but this wasn't the reason for the topic!
With the topic I wanted to ask the question whether we could need and look like it as a TS "group" of an own spirituality. I have found my path long ago!
Here still a little saying:

Every soul has got done their own journey through life, if you liked to follow the way of another person, must you lend you his eyes to see him.                                                               (Hazrat Inayat Khan)


Hugs,

WoS


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Scott

Just reading your topic and peoples' responses here and thought I'd put my two cents in -- hope that's okay???

Just wanted to say not everyone who belongs to an "organized" religion follows blindly. There are things about organized religion that I don't accept and things I believe whole-heartedly. I don't believe anyone should follow anything blindly (including any organized group, esp. politics!!), God gave us each a mind and spirit to learn and follow as we see fit and proper for our own journey through this life.

I belong to a United Methodist Church in which I've recieved a lot of support during my transition. I feel comfortable and welcomed there. I'm along the same lines and beliefs of Martin Luther and John Wesley, and this is what fits for me. I've felt God's love and presence in my heart and soul and decided this is where I need to be for myself and no one else. It works for me, I love being a Christian and having Jesus as a best friend and Savior. I believe something wonderful is waiting for us at the end of this road.

I don't push people who aren't Christians (this doesn't mean I won't pray for God's blessings for you-LOL) and I don't believe that pounding pulpits and telling people they are going to hell is what Jesus had in mind for our ministers, NO ONE can judge another person-- EVER, I don't care who you are or who you think you are. If being gay or trans is such a big deal Biblically, why didn't Jesus ever talk about it? There are parables and teachings of His throughout the whole New Testament which were the foundations for life here on earth. So if it is so WRONG (as fundementalists believe) where is it???

The teachings of Christ are about Love & Forgiveness (bottom line). It's about praising God & helping and being there for each other.

Well, that's just my thoughts and beliefs. Hope you have a good day.

God Bless,
Scott
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taylor

Scott,

I could not agree with you more! When churches, groups , organizations and humans let me down, and they always will for the mere fact of their humanity existing, I have my spiritual relationship with a God and Christ that NEVER once has let me down.

Humans have beaten me, neglected me, persecuted me, and judged and tried me, they attacked my very soul when I was only a child. But God, the God I was told had condemned me to hell by those that brutaly attempted to destroy my youthful spirit, stood very fast beside me in those very dark days.

I do not need a man to show me what God can so clearly disclose, and I surely do not look towards a church to be my place to lay blame when they fail, for it is me and me alone that must listen to the true voice of God, that is my responsibility.

WOS

I mean no offense by this so please do not take it as such. However it is against my belief that anyone can develop a shared spirituality to the degree intended by God( common cross roads possibly).  I am wondering if your words are lost in translation? 

However in addition to this, I also have just the opposite opinion of a form of spiritual practice that you have expressed embracing, so I would be of no use to assisting in what your probably asking about anyway. I do however wish you success in your journey and want to let you know that I admire your sincere heart and will keep you in my prayers as you move forward with your journey.

Peace  and God Bless

Taylor
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Witch of Sadness

Dear Scott,

Quote*Just wanted to say not everyone who belongs to an "organized" religion follows blindly. There are things about organized religion that I don't accept and things I believe whole-heartedly. I don't believe anyone should follow anything blindly (including any organized group, esp. politics!!), God gave us each a mind and spirit to learn and follow as we see fit and proper for our own journey through this life.

So you see it and I think it isn't wrong. But whether it is quite right? Many churches tell their members that they should follow God if they follow the church leaders. I had been in the LDS sect as you know. There I learned that only the absolute obedientce is necessary for God and "his" leaders. The independent individual intellect is at Mormons and many other churches been abolished!
What happens if somebody can or doesn't want follow the mass in a church? He becomes excluded and treats as a leprous one!

Quote*I belong to a United Methodist Church in which I've recieved a lot of support during my transition. I feel comfortable and welcomed there. I'm along the same lines and beliefs of Martin Luther and John Wesley, and this is what fits for me. I've felt God's love and presence in my heart and soul and decided this is where I need to be for myself and no one else. It works for me, I love being a Christian and having Jesus as a best friend and Savior. I believe something wonderful is waiting for us at the end of this road.

On the other hand, if you are happy, nothing has to be said!
Others aren't accepted in their churches because of the ts/tg. I have a friend who is transsexual. His name is Sean and he lives in the USA. He told me once that his girlfriend who is also transsexual should be excommunicated in his parish. He should part with her. He has left this Christian church!
Many transgendered or homosexual people in Christian churches experience this! It doesn't have certainly to be a sect/cult like the LDS or the JW! It happens in a Christian church every day!
And it is wrong!
Christ has accepted all people once. He then has looked, whether the life of the people is full of charity and love to God. All other things were unimportant in his eyes! But not in the eyes of the people!
Two examples:

A parish priest of the Protestant church which was transsexual lives in Cologne. Because of her former ts she didn't get work. A parish priest who had raped children, what his supervisors knew always has a job.
Patrizia, a parish priest of a Free Church, also transsexual been also lost her work also lost because of her ts. She founded the group "Queer Christ" in Berlin, around homosexual and transsexual Christians and give them a home.

If you are accepted in your parish, thank God for this every day !!!

Quote*I don't push people who aren't Christians (this doesn't mean I won't pray for God's blessings for you-LOL) and I don't believe that pounding pulpits and telling people they are going to hell is what Jesus had in mind for our ministers, NO ONE can judge another person-- EVER, I don't care who you are or who you think you are. If being gay or trans is such a big deal Biblically, why didn't Jesus ever talk about it? There are parables and teachings of His throughout the whole New Testament which were the foundations for life here on earth. So if it is so WRONG (as fundementalists believe) where is it???

And exact this makes my own sister with me. My former wife who withholds the children from me because of my former ts. And not forget, a "church" which treats me and many other persons affected like the last dirt!
The results of this unchristian behavior are often terrible! Emotional illnesses, suicides, violences of all type and  preaches of hate/self hate only some of the "fruits" of such acts!

WoS





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