Conflicted

[Tammy Hope]

A little background.

Item the first

Tonight (Friday) two of my wife's sisters (and another girl) are supposed to go on a "girls night out" sort of thing, which they have never ever done before. My wife is afraid they are setting her up to ambush her with a case for leaving me or forcing me to behave.

I violated my normal policy and called the saner of those two sisters and told her she was worried and she insisted they just wanted to give her a chance to have someone to talk to (which I believe she REALLY needs to open up to someone those these might not be the best choices) and I told her that I was all for that but that if they tried to pressure her or anything she'd go ballistic and to be real gentle

Item the second

This same sister is hosting (for the first time) a Thanksgiving dinner and twice now one of my wife's brothers has offered to come get my wife and kids and bring them up if she needed the ride - which naturally provoked us to wonder if the implied message was "leave the ->-bleeped-<- home"

Now, it was actually this that provoked my call to the sister - because my wife is too scared of conflict to ask herself (albeit, if she gets conflict she's a hellcat - but she tries to avoid it)

I asked the sister (insisting that I would understand and not be offended) if that was the nature of the invitation and she said no, that while she didn't believe in what I was doing I was not unwelcome in her home.

I assured her that I didn't want to try to change peoples minds or force them to accept me - that as long as they were honest and up front, they were welcome to disinvite me or whatever else, so long as they didn't be hurtful to my wife and kids over it. But, i also said, I didn't want to communicate the message that i was  ashamed of my status by "manning up" when I visited someone else, I'd rather just not be invited.

Item the third

During one of our strained conversations in the last 10 days my wife asked me to give her as much of the "old me" as I could on Thanksgiving and On Christmas, which I agreed to.

Item the Fourth

also related to all this is that i told my wife that I would do all i could to not come between her and her family but that at the same time, as much as it was possible, I did NOT want to leave the hose presenting as male. I don't want to send mixed messages to the public. that said, on the holidays the only people we'd be seeing is her family.

Item the fifth
it should be noted that these folks are (i say this lovingly) white trash rednecks. Introducing a transsexual into their midst is the sort of drama that could easily land one on the Springer show.


Now, with all that backstory in place:

the sister called back tonight and talked to my wife and said, in light of the fact that her daughter-in-law (who lives with them, and is the "other girl" going out tonight) has relatively young children in the home, they wanted me to "dress like a man" if I came to the dinner.

So....it looks like due to all my spoken commitments, I'll have to greatly minimize my femininity next Thursday.

Which pains me. What pains me worse is that I strongly suspect Ill be pretty much ignored by everyone there even when i do what they ask.

The "conflicted" part is that I really really do sympathize with the "think of the children" angle - even though I don't think (obviously) about us what they think about us, I do think that those people are not prepared to give their kids healthy sane answers about transsexuals.

But on the other hand, I hate to communicate to anyone the message I can just "turn it off" at will.

[Cindy]

Hi Laura,

Interesting dilemma. If I can paraphrase: You are either true to yourself or to a family that doesn't understand or want you. That is your choice?

From what I understand your wife tolerates but doesn't accept you. How about your children?

The Rednecks have some desire to rescue your wife from some "horrible" unnatural situation and liberate her from: what?  Talk her into leaving you and the children?

The Rednecks have a a social IQ of a banana but feel this is a more family orientated way of proceeding.

Other children are going to become emotionally traumatised by meeting you and their social development will be affected.

None of these arguments strike me as being logical. However, I realise family arguments rarely are.

My feeling is that you either present as you. Or don't go. If you don't go, you have to find a way of making a statement that you are not ignoring them but that they are ostracising you.

To me, your wife's support is the critical factor. And sadly this may be the turning point in the relationship.

I realise this is easy to say but difficult to accept (especially for me if in the same situation).

Are you Laura, or a guy in a dress?

These are just thoughts and opinions no way are they recommendations

Sorry Honey.

Hugs and Kisses

Cindy

[Tammy Hope]

Interesting dilemma. If I can paraphrase: You are either true to yourself or to a family that doesn't understand or want you. That is your choice?

In a sense, but it's more a matter of not putting my wife in the position of choosing between me and them (she would choose me, by the way, at least right now). If she were willing to create distance with them, I wouldn't mind a bit.

also, though, she has one really good sister who's very accepting and supportive.

From what I understand your wife tolerates but doesn't accept you. How about your children?

They either accept it or are not willing to voice a complaint, I think it's the former but can't be sure it's not the latter.

The Rednecks have some desire to rescue your wife from some "horrible" unnatural situation and liberate her from: what?  Talk her into leaving you and the children?

I do not KNOW that's there desire, I simply think it's likely - but it would be to "rescue" her AND the kids from me if it were to be the case. They MAY be just offering her support (which is what she claimed) but the sister I didn't talk to is known to be devious and her husband is worse.

The Rednecks have a a social IQ of a banana but feel this is a more family orientated way of proceeding.

Other children are going to become emotionally traumatised by meeting you and their social development will be affected.

I don't think they necessarily would use the word "traumatized" - I just take it they don't want to have that conversation. which would bother me more if I didn't know that if they DID have that conversation they would just tell them i was a perverted sinner that needs to repent.

I can make peace with it most by realizing I'm sparing those kids hearing that lie any sooner than necessary.

None of these arguments strike me as being logical. However, I realise family arguments rarely are.

My feeling is that you either present as you. Or don't go. If you don't go, you have to find a way of making a statement that you are not ignoring them but that they are ostracising you.

If it was all about me, I'd say that was a slam dunk easy call. the choice here is whether or not I show some grace towards my wife. If I want any hope of preserving a loving relationship I can't, in good conscious, expect her to make ALL the compromises.

To me, your wife's support is the critical factor. And sadly this may be the turning point in the relationship.

I realise this is easy to say but difficult to accept (especially for me if in the same situation).

Are you Laura, or a guy in a dress?

Indeed. but the counter argument is that I see girls in the store every day sans makeup, in their jeans and sneakers and sweatshirts. And that's essentially what I'd be. The only real difference would be to minimize the breast padding to a level the kids wouldn't guess at.

I told my wife that I'll drop that which the kids would make note of but I'm not breaking out the tighty whites either.


These are just thoughts and opinions no way are they recommendations

Sorry Honey.


DON'T BE!

[Cindy]

You have to take my comments from a person who:
Doesn't live in the USA
Redneck opinions I equate rightly or wrongly to be very prejudiced to a white only WASP society. ( sorry again if I'm wrong).

From your reply, why not just go in a nice trouser suit? Not sure how formal these things are. I have never been to a Thanksgiving dinner BTW, not even too sure what one is .


Cindy

[Tammy Hope]

For some folks holiday dinners are dressy.

For these folks - weddings and funerals are the only time you get (semi) formal.

[CharleneT]

Hmm... sticky situation.  I would go, as well I would try and make it as comfortable as possible for your wife.  Which means toning down to a androgenous presentation (so it seems to me from what I've read).  Remember, being TS isn't all about clothes.  This way you do not cause waves, and show that you are respectful.  Does this mean you've "caved" ... no, not really.  They may feel that way, but I would try for something that keeps the peace without giving up entirely.  Since this is family, this issue will be coming back up again, so you will have future chances - probably soon - to start moving toward a feminine presentation.  Slowly so the "kids are not bothered" or whatever they want to call it.  To me it sounds like they are using that as an excuse, who could do something others have branded "bad for the kids...".  That was a chess move for sure.

Have you talked this out with your wife ?

[Eva Marie]

I think that your wife's actions toward her family hold the key here.

If she makes it clear to them that she supports you no matter what, and that she is willing to step out of her family over it - that's probably the best scenario. It would force her family to decide what is and what is not important to them. They my not like you but they'll have to accept you to see her.

If she stays more in the middle (like she has been doing) then her family will never quit trying to come between you.

There is really not much that you can do in this situation, except revert to the male that they all want you to be. And that's obviously out of the question. So you compromise and go in DRAB this year to thanksgiving. What happens next year? It'll never end if you do it the first time.

I suspect that you and her family are now done with each other for all intents and purposes. They have demonstrated that they will likely never accept you.

Dealing with family just sucks sometimes; they are some of the most hateful and judgmental people around.

[Debra]

I feel your pain girl. I am in a different situation with my wife and our families and therefore I'm handling it different as well. I'm not going to thanksgiving with either family because I'm not welcome there as Jerica....but instead with some trans friends.

That said, I feel your pain and props to you if you can manage to go in guy mode.

[Tammy Hope]

There is really not much that you can do in this situation, except revert to the male that they all want you to be. And that's obviously out of the question. So you compromise and go in DRAB this year to thanksgiving. What happens next year? It'll never end if you do it the first time.

Actually, I think this is an exception - possibly an event staged specifically to pull her closer to them. We haven't been to ANY holiday dinner with her family in years. They have had some occasionally that we skipped - specifically because they can't get together without SOMEONE getting pissed about something.

(I recall a year when one brother and his family got there 2 hours late and were outraged that the meal started without them)

I wouldn't be at all surprised if we never went to another one.

In fact, she's making noises like she might not go to this one because she too can recognize that there's probably an agenda.

I think we'll know more after tonight. if they piss her off tonight it will solve the problem.

[K8]

Laura,
If at all possible, decide with your wife what to do.  If you both agree on a course of action, you both will fare better with the family. 

The bit about the kids is either BS or they just don't want to deal with explaining it to them.  (You might go to the dinner, get the kids together, and explain to them your situation.  Kids often handle it better than adults do, and it could be your wedge.)

I don't know if you consider yourself full-time, but after I started full-time there was no way I could handle bringing *him* back.  You don't have to go in a red dress and four-inch heels, but I think you almost have to go as some version of Laura.

JMHO

Whatever you do, dear, let us know what you decide and we will support you.

- Kate

[old1]

They are not 'red necks', they are people and you need to treat them individually.  Sticking them all in one category is a way of convincing yourself they are all bad.

Once you dig your heals in they will respond in kind.  This is not something that is going to be resolved Thursday.  I would leave it up to your wife.  She is your most important ally and deserves consideration.  Better to forfeit a skirmish than lose the war.

Perhaps you could show but not stay for dinner.

BTW, nice picture.

[Tammy Hope]

Laura,
If at all possible, decide with your wife what to do.  If you both agree on a course of action, you both will fare better with the family. 

Well, given that my wife had - several days before the invite was extended - asked me to revert as much as possible on the two holidays, it's a slam dunk where she'd come down on this.

she knows my position is that only in the most rare exception do I want to be seen out of the house as male (all my male possessions are firmly packed away) but this is probably going to qualify as that rare exception.

The bit about the kids is either BS or they just don't want to deal with explaining it to them.

the latter, almost certainly. You must remember that just because you and I know the kids wouldn't have an issue doesn't mean that THEY in there very traditional world view would agree.

you have to remember, the first article of faith for the Religious right is "think of the children!"

which is why I've taken it as a given I'll never teach again unless i achieve some stunningly deep stealth.

  (You might go to the dinner, get the kids together, and explain to them your situation.  Kids often handle it better than adults do, and it could be your wedge.)

THAT would be the mother of all explosions if I tried that.

I don't know if you consider yourself full-time,

Pretty much, yes. I haven't figured out the best approach to a legal name change but I've begun to tell people at places like the dentist office what I prefer to be called and I make EVERY effort to not step out my door without having my female presentation firmly in place (i.e. no emergency trip to the market without having shaved and put on my face, for instance)

but after I started full-time there was no way I could handle bringing *him* back.  You don't have to go in a red dress and four-inch heels, but I think you almost have to go as some version of Laura.

What I have in mind is Jeans, sneakers, and a sweatshirt (all women's clothing) with a bra very lightly padded (as opposed to the rather obvious ricebags i usually wear) and stud earrings and just enough concealer to hide the shadow.

The jeans and stuff are perfectly appropriate for that family and the other stuff is subtle enough the kids won't read it as female. They can deal with that or tell me to leave, whichever.

JMHO

Whatever you do, dear, let us know what you decide and we will support you.

- Kate

As it turned out, their GNO tonight was very friendly and low-key. they didn't even bring up my condition or anything. Apparently they were just trying to make her comfortable with such outings so she'd know she had a shoulder, so to speak. that puts the onus on me to "play nice" next week.

As far as I'm concerned, the outfit I described above is the sort of thing any GG might be seen in at WalMart or something so I'm not "going male" - I'm just having to dial back how much I compensate for not having the stuff nature gave her.

As for "being" Laura, none of the people who'll be there Thursday are ever going to call me by that name - there's no point in me campaigning for that. I just remind myself that there will be so little contact with these folks, especially on their home turf, over the years that it really doesn't matter.
Post Merge: November 20, 2009, 07:54:37 PM

They are not 'red necks', they are people and you need to treat them individually.  Sticking them all in one category is a way of convincing yourself they are all bad.

No, it's simply rhetorical shorthand for giving the reader a picture of the sort of situation I'm dealing with - just as much as if I'd said they were "blue bloods" or "yuppies" or whatever.
Trust me, I've been dealing with these folks since 1988, I know who's nice and who's not and who's nice one day and not another.

Calling them "red necks" isn't for me, its for you guys. And, truth be told, if i needed a shorthand reference to tell you people who I was, "plain white trash" would probably be about as accurate as you could get. the only difference being my family was only working class when I was growing up, but they were WAY better off than hers was.

I somehow have managed to be "downwardly mobile"

But I digress. the point is, I'm not looking down on anyone - I don't stand on a high enough hill myself to do that.

Once you dig your heals in they will respond in kind.  This is not something that is going to be resolved Thursday.  I would leave it up to your wife.  She is your most important ally and deserves consideration.  Better to forfeit a skirmish than lose the war.

Indeed. And as I said before, I already know where she stands. If i forced her to choose, she'd choose me. but if I asked her opinion, she'd easily go with "dress like a man"

Perhaps you could show but not stay for dinner.

BTW, nice picture.

Thanks!

I took some more that day i wanted to post in the pic thread but i can't find the darn thing. i need to bookmark it when it shows up again.

Someone told me last night I fully pass in that pic and the others and that blows me away. It strikes me as being entirely too good to be true.

But then, I'm getting the same feedback from people I see IRL so...maybe its true.

But hey, I'm digressing again aren't I?

[Hannah]

Do you have a job yet Laura?

[Tammy Hope]

No, not yet.

[SusanKC]

Laura,

A lot of good advice above.  Of course the challenge is determining what advice works for you, and of course that's ALWAYS the challenge.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if we never went to another one.

In fact, she's making noises like she might not go to this one because she too can recognize that there's probably an agenda.

It's amazing how many problems tear you up trying to figure out how to resolve, and they resolve themselves and go away with no actual action needed.  You just can't count on that happening.  However, you percieved the girls night out as an intervention in progress, and it turned out to just be a GNO.

I guess there are two questions:
Does she want to go into this family situation? 
Do you want to be with her even if it means going into it?

And frankly, considering your moderate dress intentions, go.  Considering it's a family holiday gathering, I can't see a brawl developing immediately, and if one does develop, you can go back out the same door just as fast as you came in it.  Just my opinion.

SusanKG

[Naturally Blonde]

It's looks like a very delicate situation which is not easily resolved. I've never been married or been able to have children, so I've never been faced with this kind of situation. I hope there is a resolution for you and your family soon.