Living In Stealth - Does It Hurt Us?

[melissa90299]

The late Gianna E. Israel, author of Transgender Care and counseler of over 3,000 transwomen told me that she would mark some of her client's files "FFS required." (I wasn't one of those BTW) As far as being pretty,a lot of post-FFS women aren't pretty. But there is a certain minimum  standard of feminine presentation that needs to be attained before a transwoman can expect to successfully and "happily" live as a woman. To deny this is, simply, to be in denial.

Really...  I find it remarkable that a respected transgender care coucelor would discuss patient files with anyone.  And it matters not that you weren't one of them Melissa, because at Susan's we don't judge how a person looks, in fact we don't judge our members.  And who gives a monkies that folks aren't pretty.  And I'm going to denie that I'm actually reading this kind of post on this web site.  But then it would be interesting to know what these "minimum standards" are so that I may strive for the susscess and the happiness that I need to attain to live as a woman.

Geeeeeeeeeeez.

Hey hon pass me a bottle of wine it's going to be a long night 

Steph

She wasn't discussing patient files, she was discussing me something along the lines of "well, if I think a patient reguires FFS to achieve success, I will mark her file FFS required before referral (to SRS) but in your case it's your call" but she did recommend that I consult Dr. Ousterhout, who recommended a scalp advance, brow lift, forehead type II, lip lift and sliding genioplasty. All of which I had done excpet the sliding genioplasty, which I am having on Dec 11th.

The reason I mentioned that she wasn't referring to me is that I was fairly passable and pretty prior to FFS, that's just a relevant fact to the conversation. FFS, even half of what he recommended, took me from borderline to 99% passable in San Francisco and 100% passable just about everywhere else. There is a saying among transwomen who come to San Francisco. "Don't be surprised if you get clocked, everybody gets clocked but nobody gives a flying ----"

I just can't describe how wonderful it is to be perceived as a female by almost everyone. I never, ever thought I could achieve deep stealth at my age but I am seeing that now as a possibilty and that is very, very exciting. Frankly, I don't understand why any transwoman would want anything less. If one wants to be an activist too, that's a choice.

I don't know why you are taking this personal, Steph. You are way beyond what I am talking about, way, way beyond but again we don't judge. However, the difference between a man in a dress and nicely presented transwoman is impossible to describe.It's like obscenity, you know it when you see it.
Posted on: November 21, 2006, 10:32:36 PM

What if...?

No matter what anyone thinks, when I look in the mirror, I want to see a woman, I have very nearly achieved that. Maybe I am shallow but, to me, that is one of the main reasons for transitioning, to have the outside match the inside. Although ridding my body of testostrone and replacing it with the estrogen my brain and body craved since puberty has made me feel more womanly on the inside too.

[melissa90299]

there is a certain minimum standard of feminine presentation

Very expensive and invasive mininum standard of feminine presentation.

tinkerbell

I don't know if the "minimum" standard I have in mind would require a fortune. Some things just require effort, like diet and exercise. That linebacker in a dress with SRS in the documentary could have achieved the minimum standard by getting in better shape, gosh, that male beer belly was embarassing. Ugh!

Sorry, but if you look like that, you are still a man in a dress with SRS.

Anyway, thanks for posting that article. it is very thought-provoking.

[Melissa]

I don't know why you are taking this personal, Steph. You are way beyond what I am talking about, way, way beyond but again we don't judge. However, the difference between a man in a dress and nicely presented transwoman is impossible to describe.It's like obscenity, you know it when you see it.

I think this is due to the fact that you are presuming:
1. Most can not pass without FFS
2. You are required to pass perfectly to live happily as female

Steph is not taking this personally, but rather taking into consideration the other member of this board.  Some here may not be perfectly passable where you are, but we don't all live in San Fransisco.  I understand that the more passable somebody is, the easier time they will have and I think you are just stating the obvious.  Some people will never pass perfectly without surgery and can't afford surgery at this time.  Since they don't meet your "minimum standard of beauty", does that mean they shouldn't transition?  Of course they should.  The way you state this is of somebody who is addressing "the unpassable" in a condescending tone and that is what is so disturbing.

Melissa
Posted on: November 21, 2006, 08:53:05 PM

I don't know if the "minimum" standard I have in mind would require a fortune. Some things just require effort, like diet and exercise. That linebacker in a dress with SRS in the documentary could have achieved the minimum standard by getting in better shape, gosh, that male beer belly was embarassing. Ugh!

You do realize there are degrees between the "linebacker" (a very, very extreme example) and a model.

Sorry, but if you look like that, you are still a man in a dress with SRS.

First of all, I find that very offensive.  Just because someone may look like a man in a dress does not make them one.  Secondly, I have personally met Tinkerbell and she passes very well.

Melissa

[Kate]

But if I ever pass completely I hope I never go stealth.  That would be like turning my back on all those who helped me get where I am and all those who are hoping for a better life.

I agree.

If I'm ever granted the impossible miracle of actually be able to go stealth... I couldn't leave others out in the cold to die in hopeless dispair. I've been there. I'm still there at times. You people have saved my life more times than I let on, just from a "coincidental" post at the right moment, an unexpected IM just to check on me, or even seeing a new member join and begin this painful journey and remembering what it was like for me in the beginning.

I don't expect to be leading parades of TSs down main street, but if I can show that TSs are just ordinary people with an extraordinary problem, I'll do it. And not out of obligation, but rather out of *love*. I truly do love you people. I've never, ever encountered a more compassionate, unselfish, generous, and just honestly CARING group of people. I know the pain. I know the black dispair that swallows so many of us before we even TRY to solve this, drowning in hopelessness fostered by "if I can't pass, I can't do this."

Be careful. Those of you suggesting that only the pretty and passable should transition... you're handing a shotgun to the lurkers out there desperately trying to find a way out of this awful prison. Please, don't snuff out their hope. They deserve a chance at solving this as best they can. If that ruins it for the beautiful and pretty, well shame on you for even thinking that way.

[tinkerbell]

Sorry, but if you look like that, you are still a man in a dress with SRS.

Anyway, thanks for posting that article. it is very thought-provoking.

Melissa90299, the woman with the kitty is me.  I will be removing the photo in a few minutes, I just wanted to post it so that you know how I look like.
I don't think I look bad at all considering that I have never had major maxillofacial surgery, my hair line has never been adjusted, the cheeks are all mine , my head is not that big, my shoulders are not that broad, my nose is not that wide, my upper lip is not that thin,  my toes are smaller....lol  lol  OMG I can't believe I am playing this game!...this is hilarious!    etc, etc, etc...


tinkerbell

tinkerbell's first rule for living stealth:

remove photograph from avatar

[Tiffany Elise]

  I probably will never transition due to health reasons but if I did I do honestly believe that I would just relocate and live as a woman and not reveal being transgender. I would stay on the transgender sites as not to forget where I came from so to speak and to help others just starting out like I am now.
  Being stealth right now is painful but I am thankful I can come here and be me. That is help enough for right now and lessens the pain.

Tinkerbell;

  I just hope that if I transition I look as much like a lady as you do. Your posting, attitude, reflections and appearance are a lady through and through. You're a sweetheart. (I'm really jealous!)
  You're a blessing!

  Tiff

[melissa90299]

I don't know why you are taking this personal, Steph. You are way beyond what I am talking about, way, way beyond but again we don't judge. However, the difference between a man in a dress and nicely presented transwoman is impossible to describe.It's like obscenity, you know it when you see it.

I think this is due to the fact that you are presuming:
1. Most can not pass without FFS
2. You are required to pass perfectly to live happily as female

Steph is not taking this personally, but rather taking into consideration the other member of this board.  Some here may not be perfectly passable where you are, but we don't all live in San Fransisco.  I understand that the more passable somebody is, the easier time they will have and I think you are just stating the obvious.  Some people will never pass perfectly without surgery and can't afford surgery at this time.  Since they don't meet your "minimum standard of beauty", does that mean they shouldn't transition?  Of course they should.  The way you state this is of somebody who is addressing "the unpassable" in a condescending tone and that is what is so disturbing.

Melissa
Posted on: November 21, 2006, 08:53:05 PM

I don't know if the "minimum" standard I have in mind would require a fortune. Some things just require effort, like diet and exercise. That linebacker in a dress with SRS in the documentary could have achieved the minimum standard by getting in better shape, gosh, that male beer belly was embarassing. Ugh!

You do realize there are degrees between the "linebacker" (a very, very extreme example) and a model.

Sorry, but if you look like that, you are still a man in a dress with SRS.

First of all, I find that very offensive.  Just because someone may look like a man in a dress does not make them one.  Secondly, I have personally met Tinkerbell and she passes very well.

Melissa

I wasn't referring to Tinkerbell, I assumed Tink passes well since she is living stealth, why would I question that. I am agreeing with the author of the article she posted. And, in effect, agreeing with her. Sorry, there are opposing views here, and I am of the view---and I had the benefit of being counseled by an experienced gender therapist and much of  my philosophy echoes hers---- and my view is that one must attain a reasonable presentation before attempting to live fulltime. Almost everyone can achieve this, if she wants it bad enough.

[Kate]

my view is that one must attain a reasonable presentation before attempting to live fulltime.

And if they can't...? Then what? What if someone *knows* it just ain't gonna happen regardless of hormones or surgery? What if they can't afford either, but are dying inside?

[melissa90299]

my view is that one must attain a reasonable presentation before attempting to live fulltime.

And if they can't...? Then what? What if someone *knows* it just ain't gonna happen regardless of hormones or surgery? What if they can't afford either, but are dying inside?

I don't live in a what if world. I believe in a "can do" world. If you want something bad enough, you will achieve it. If you don't, you won't.

[Stormy Weather]

...just because we have chosen to live our lives in stealth doesn't mean that we will not provide our grain of rice for others to feed on.

So true. Living in stealth, for me, doesn't mean severing all ties. Only a few months ago, I helped a very young TS (who came out to me) with a whole heap of advice and info; a kickstart in the right direction.

What strikes me is the number of people who seem to be saying, 'We need these people to speak for us' without considering themselves as candidates first. I speak for no-one except myself, yet fully acknowledge the work done by others to enable me to live my life.

After re-reading this thread, I would probably describe my situation as 'almost-stealth'... stealth to the world at large, known to the people that need to know.

[melissa90299]

I don't know why you are taking this personal, Steph. You are way beyond what I am talking about, way, way beyond but again we don't judge. However, the difference between a man in a dress and nicely presented transwoman is impossible to describe.It's like obscenity, you know it when you see it.

I think this is due to the fact that you are presuming:
1. Most can not pass without FFS
2. You are required to pass perfectly to live happily as female

Steph is not taking this personally, but rather taking into consideration the other member of this board.  Some here may not be perfectly passable where you are, but we don't all live in San Fransisco.  I understand that the more passable somebody is, the easier time they will have and I think you are just stating the obvious.  Some people will never pass perfectly without surgery and can't afford surgery at this time.  Since they don't meet your "minimum standard of beauty", does that mean they shouldn't transition?  Of course they should.  The way you state this is of somebody who is addressing "the unpassable" in a condescending tone and that is what is so disturbing.

Melissa

I wasn't intending to be condescending, just realistic. Sorry, I might sound a little belligerent today as I had a tiff with my boss and a lousy couple sales days and I depend on my commissions to fund my procedures.

OTOH I worked hard and sacrificed a great deal to get to where I am in such a short time so I take the view that if I can do it, anyone can. If they want it bad enough.

Case in point, there is a coal miner in W. Virginia working in guy mode to save to get FFS with Dr. Ousterhout. He wouldn't dare to try to come out without it. He knwos he could likeby be KILLED. This is reality. Heck, there is always a way. If someone is really unpassable with no hope, she could at least save up enough money to come to San Francisco where she would be accepted or, at least, tolerated.

[Julie Marie]

Whew!  It's getting warm in here!

Lori, you said better than I what I was getting at.  Beauty disables society's prejudice.  Once that happens they will listen and hopefully accept what we are saying.  But that doesn't mean you have to be physically beautiful, just attractive enough as a woman to make the public SEE a woman.  That attractiveness will most likely come from both inner and outer beauty and people will see that.  And I'm not talking Miss International beauty.

I agree somewhat that people can't be changed but societal views can and when that happens people do start to come around.  The young will absorb things more easily than the old and will create new rules for society.  Look at what the baby boomers did to the US.  It's an evolutionary process that is steeped in protest.  And society listens better when the number of protesters are greater.  So if we present a positive image and let society know there are many more of us then they realize, we will eventually change the way society views us.

I truly beleive most of the estimates indicating how many TS, TG and CD people there are is very low.  The CD numbers are nothing more than a wild guess.  There are CDs who will never come out for anyone.  But if the true numbers were really known, across the board, I believe we'd gain some respect.  Ultimately that would lead to a time when living in stealth wouldn't be such a necessity for living a normal life.  I truly believe that time will come, but only if we keep ourselves in the public eye and present ourselves with the dignity and decency deserving of being called a woman.

Julie

[cindianna_jones]

I believe that there are a great number of TS people.  Unfortunately, I also believe that so many are incapacitated by the "condition" that they are totally screwed up. They can't bring resolution to their lives and fail miserably in our society.  And that is what the public does see.  And then there are those who are on the other end of the spectrum... those who are super achievers and are successful in anything that they do.  These have limited contact with society as they go through their real life test and then work their way back into society.

I believe that the greatest good we can do is to be successful.  It matters not which causes we champion.  It matters not if we give something or nothing back to the "community".  Those who want, can.  And they will. 

As far as a community hierachy goes.... I think it a little odd that someone views it as such.  Sure I've been through a lot, but why is my life any more important than anyone else?  It is only that experience I have to share, and I give it freely.  Why should "post-ops" have any special standing?  Is it like a lettered sheepskin?  Na... nothing so grandios. 

Cindi

[SusanK]

I believe that the greatest good we can do is to be successful.  It matters not which causes we champion.  It matters not if we give something or nothing back to the "community".  Those who want, can.  And they will. 

I can't agree more, except I would also argue we shouldn't be silent either. Being a successful transwoman allows you to be a role model with and in your life. You don't have to be public, but don't sit by and let things just happen or get worse. You have some obligation to speak up in some way, and you can without disclosing your life, just be positive against discrimination and for human rights.

I think if there is an issue the whole community should come together to fight is health care coverage. I agree with the new direction of the HBIGDA (or its new name) to get better clarification of GID and changing coverage to mandatory for therapy, hormones (often covered now), and especially surgeries (both). This is where post-ops can voice their views without any threat of disclosure in the broader goal of better health care. And some can be role models why it's important, for successes in people and lives.

I haven't read all the posts, it's a big "Whew!?", but I'll simply add that it's my goal to simply fit into the range of women to get on with my life. I've expressed privately to some that I dislike the case some transwomen make we have to adopt the stereotype role, for makeup, clothes, shopping, and being "feminine."  How many women hate makeup, keeping up on fashion, going shopping, and on and on with "feminine" stuff?

I tell them I haven't thought about being a "fashionable" nature/landscape and street photographer wearing the latest styles with fresh makeup all the time. Who doesn't want come off a long hike not looking pretty? I tell them they're not watching real women. I'll stick with my physician and therapist's advice and just learn enough to get by (and they're sure I can with minor ffs and voice therapy).

Just my thoughts. Have a good Thanksgiving.

--Susan--

[Steph]

I don't know why you are taking this personal, Steph. ....

Nope I'm not taking this post or this topic personally Harper, I just get very passionate about these types of issues

Steph

[Refugee]

Its up to each TS to do anything and everything they can to adjust to the opposite gender as best as they can and do without an attitude. FFS should be required before SRS in my book. Nobody looks down below. You pass from the neck up. Being a woman is way more than having a vagina. That sounds more sexual to me than gender related.

I'm sorry but that is a ludicrous statement, and has no bearing on being a woman and quite frankly is a typically male point of view.  I have to look like a woman before I can be treated like one.?I know several women who would be mistaken for men.

So yet another Transgeneration reference, "You're a woman because you have the mind of a woman, not the body of one.", so yeah, being a woman is about more then just having the body of one.  The fact is that which ever side of the nature/nurture argument you fall on we were never socialized as girls growing up and for a good number of people as women in adulthood.

You can't just pop a couple pills, have a little surgery and declare yourself a woman and demand the social acceptance that comes with it.  The fact remains there are too many TSs running around with the mindset of straight, usually white, men in womens bodies.  And society looks at that and says "I don't think so".  Ugly trannies that pass, do so because fundamentally they act like women, not men.

And what do we do?  We react like men and get angry and declare that our bodies are as equal as the next woman's.It reminds me of a concept a professor once talked about, the "there ought to be a law law".  In essence, someone is wronged and they just can't believe there isn't a law that covers their particular situation hence "there ought to be a law".  Well there isn't.  Yes, everybody of every body morphology should be accepted for who they are.  Society doesn't work that way, it never has, and the reality is it never will.

Oh and throwing around "quite frankly is a typically male point of view" or something similar when someone disagrees with you is just plain childish.  So what if it is, am I not a TS if I do anything typically masculine or have a "male point of view"?

For as much breath as you're wasting screaming "don't judge me" at others, consider who's doing the most judging.

[Steph]

Its up to each TS to do anything and everything they can to adjust to the opposite gender as best as they can and do without an attitude. FFS should be required before SRS in my book. Nobody looks down below. You pass from the neck up. Being a woman is way more than having a vagina. That sounds more sexual to me than gender related.

I'm sorry but that is a ludicrous statement, and has no bearing on being a woman and quite frankly is a typically male point of view.  I have to look like a woman before I can be treated like one.?I know several women who would be mistaken for men.

....

Oh and throwing around "quite frankly is a typically male point of view" or something similar when someone disagrees with you is just plain childish.  So what if it is, am I not a TS if I do anything typically masculine or have a "male point of view"?

For as much breath as you're wasting screaming "don't judge me" at others, consider who's doing the most judging.

I didn't "throw around" anything my words were purposely chosen for I can not agree that a person should be required to have FFS before SRS as the notion that women have to be beautiful, or something similar I find to be ludicrous and something that would have been produced by a male brain.  I think that this was tried in Germany when they tried to create the Aryan race, blond hair and blue eyes etc. etc.

You are born a woman you are not turned into one, whether you take pills, have augmentation, or whatever.

I have not been screaming at anyone, I have been commenting/replying to the words and notions that have been presented.  It is quite obvious that you think that I've been wasting my breath screaming "Don't judge me" but I can't for the life of me see where I actually did that, but then you're entitled to that opinion.  I don't believe that I have judged anyone and if anyone feels judged by my remarks they shouldn't as none were personal.

Steph

[beth]

          I completely agree with Steph.  Beauty and passing do not define who is female. If that were the case transsexuals could not exist. Gender comes from within. Transsexuals do the best they can as far as looking the way they would like. There is a wide range of factors both physical and emotional that determine "passability" and everyone is not equal in those assets. Humans often suffer from weakness that can limit their ability to change and transsexuals are human. If a woman weighs 300 lbs she is not a woman? If she were she would surely loose the weight and become "beautiful" as defined by men and society in general?  I think not. Superficial people exist in all groups and I see transsexuals are no exception.


beth

[brina]

Well put Beth, I agree totally with what you have said .

Byee,
  Brina

[Lori]

Most 300lb women do Not have a transsexual history therefore dont have the prejudice against them for their sex or gender. Society may shun them for being obese, but not for who they are or who they are trying to represent. They still look like women, not 300lb fat men in dresses. Thats a double strike in society.

My biggest point is you dont put your worst representatives forward to represent your group, yet with transsexuality you cannot expect the ones that are living in stealth to out themselves and put their lives and carreers in danger to represent you. If they are in stealth then obviously they pass and nobody that doesn need to know has any clue to thier past. And in passing they show no male features because society is not clueless. I dont blame them for hiding out and not wanting to be Transsexual or associated with transsexuals. I dont want to be one either. I want to be a woman. That means I want to look like one. I dont want any male features. Most women dont. And I will go in stealth and I may help those I can online but I sure am not going to organize a march on society and spearhead any kind of movement, and I sure dont want "women" in dresses that still look like men with beards and vaginas doing it for me either.


There are boyish girls, and big girls and tall girls but they dont have a history of being male. If you want to fit into society as a woman then you need to act and look like the general population of women and the general population of women are concerned about beauty and looking pretty. A woman has her beauty.