Living In Stealth - Does It Hurt Us?

[Julie Marie]

Having read practically every word in this thread I'd like to make an analysis of what has been expressed and how it reflects on changing the negative stigma of being transsexual/transgender.

I have yet to meet a transgender person who didn't want to be seen in the eyes of society more favorably.  I have read and heard many times how great it would be if we could just be ourselves and be completely accepted without prejudice, discrimination, ostracization and all of the other things we suffer in this society.  So the solution is to erase the negative stigma.  That will take a while but it can be done.

From what I have read here it seems those who can live in stealth choose to do so.  And those who can live in stealth obviously pass well enough to be seen as woman.  Since we live in a society that initially judges a book by its cover, those who pass well as woman would logically be the best candidates to represent us.  Of course, other factors are necessary but we have to think like the general public and start with looks/passability.

Those who can't pass or who are marginal have a great need for the negative stigma to be erased.  They do not have the choice of stealth.  They were not blessed with the genetics, the attributes, the financial means or what ever else is needed to make them reasonably passable.  So they either live a life in denial or repression, which too often leads to severe depression or even suicide, or choose a life where they will constantly face discrimination just because of their looks.  Neither choice is good.

Looking at this dilemma logically it would seem the best way to attack this problem is to have those who the public will accept most easily to be our representatives.  We need intelligent, articulate, well spoken, confident, motivated AND passable representatives.  The problem is many of those who can pass have no desire to put their life on the line in hopes of making some headway in erasing the stigma.  And I don't blame them.  I live in a sort of stealth right now.  I'd never out myself in the media, not at this point anyway.  I have too much to lose. 

So, if every one of us wants the stigma erased but the majority of us don't want to put our lives on the line, what do we do? 

Throughout history those who faced discrimination have eventually rebelled against the society that tried to keep them down.  When protesters had a good following, people listened.  Very few have all that it takes to be a great representative.  But one of the most important traits one has to have is the drive, the desire, to take on this challenge.  And there are people out there who have that.  People who represent us in a positive light.  People who are already out and already speaking publicly.  People who the general public will see as woman and will listen to them.

If I try to place myself in their shoes I wondered where I'd get the drive to keep going and fight the discrimination in the face of an ignorant, uneducated society.  What I would need most is to know I have a lot of people out there backing me up and encouraging me on.  History tells us that large numbers of supporters is a very important factor in changing society's views.

I'm sure many if not all of us know someone who they would like to be our spokesperson.  The person who comes to mind for me is Donna Rose.  She came to Chicago last summer to compete in the Gay Games as a wrestler.  She did interviews with the media while here.  She's intelligent and articulate and represented us well.  I didn't get a chance to meet her but we did exchange some e-mails and I really found her likable.

So my thoughts are what if we let these people know we support them.  I'm not talking about when they are doing something in our area but as a matter of habit.  Every once in a while take the time to check up on them, see what they are doing and let them know we are behind them and thank them for being there for us.  Something along that line.  I keep asking myself "Is the reason these people aren't more active or more visible in the media because they don't have enough support to be heard?" 

I don't know.  I'm just looking for a solution to a problem that plagues us all.  Any comments?       

Julie

[cindianna_jones]

Julie,

I think you have done a wonderful job in summarizing all of the points that have been made.

I'm doing what I can do to further the cause.  I have a strong online presensce here and in other places.  I receive a basket full of emails every day from people I do not know but have GID related issues.  I answer every one.

I've published a book and it is being read.  I received a note the other day from a prominont Mormon Church authority and business leader in Utah.  He told me that through my experiences, he now better understood the problems that we face.  He said that he had always thought of us as being gay and that his opinion had been changed by reading the book.  Out of all the "fan" mail I have received lately, this one broke me immediately and I cried for the rest of the day.  That impregnable wall I faced in my transition now has weak mortar around one of its strongest bricks.

All of us will continue to harbor some secrets as we live life.  I doubt there are too many individuals who go totally stealth as described in the wiki article here.  Someone recently asked why post ops would hang around this place if they are attempting to live in stealth.  My answer is that I don't know. In addition to the wonderful people I have met here, I feel compelled to help in some small way.  That will have to do for now. 

Cindi

[Hazumu]

Julie, in your most recent post you kind of beat me to saying what I wanted to say.  But I wanted to pose it as a thought experiment.  So at the risk of appearing 'me, too,' here goes...

Please pardon the long set-up, I wanted to create a frame that would help divorce our many personal, passionate viewpoints on this divisive topic from the initial question posed by Julie.

We are as gods.  We are observers of the following experiment.  The outcome, whatever it is, will not directly affect us, so we have no stake in what it is.  We have no need to defend an ideology or a dogma, and indeed, we don't want to.  We only want the experiment to reveal what IS, not what we are.

Our tasks are to predict the outcome of the experiment, knowing the conditions under which it's conducted.  In predicting the outcome, we are forming hypotheses that the experiment tests for a true/false outcome.  True -- our hypothesis is validated; false -- our hypothesis is invalid, and we need to find a hypothesis that explains the results.  There is a third outcome, NULL, neither true nor false, and this indicates that the hypothesis is flawed and should be re-thought.

Formulating a question for an experiment to answer is probably the toughest part, BTW.

THE EXPERIMENT:

The experiment is designed to answer the question: Given that society currently appears to harbor misconceptions about transgenders, and those misconceptions enable and perpetuate some level of society-condoned transphobia, and given that escaping the negative effects of the misconceptions and phobia is an impetus for those transgender women who are well-able to 'pass' to live their trans-girl lives as 'stealth' as possible, does this 'removal' of the well-able-to-pass trans-girl from general visibility of society perpetuate the above-mentioned misconceptions and transphobia by not providing society examples of trans-women who do not bare discernible stigmata of a male puberty, and are often mistaken for genetic women?

CONDITIONS (INPUTS):

Constants -- The current percentage of the population who is transgendered, who are undergoing transition, and who have completed transition.  Also, the ratio within the transitioning and transitioned subgroups of fully-passable to 'clockable' trans-girls. Also, the 'baseline' metrics for society's current level of misconception of and phobia towards the trans community.  The corollary would be that the higher the level of misconception, the lower the level of acceptance in society.  One of the components of the level of transphobe-ness could be the percentage of assaults/murder on trans-girls whose trans-ness is perceived/discovered.

Variables -- The percentage of trans-girls in both groups who are fully 'out' as to their MtF status.  Let's define 'fully out' as being in an activist role.  I don't expect someone to buy a pack of gum or order a taco and tell the cashier or clerk at each stop, "I'm a trans-woman," but at critical junctures they chose being out.  For example, being casually out to memberships in groups such as churches or the Rotarians and similar civic groups.  Also, outing oneself in order to combat prejudice towards those whose natural, inherent gender or sexual orientation is at variance with the 90+% of the population in general whose gender and sexual orientations fit the 'standard' straight-heterosexual axis.  Another 'outreach' or 'activist' activity would be appearing on television advocating issues of concern to the trans community.

EXPERIMENT METHODOLOGY:

Take the above inputs and run 11 trials in which the variable input (the percentage of fully passable women who are out,) varies in steps of 10%, from 0% to 100%

Collect new metrics on societal acceptance at intervals of 1 year, 5, 10 and 25 years. (Bear with me here! this is a thought experiment  )

Now, with the inputs and methodology above, what do you predict the outcome will be for each of the eleven trials?  How, and how much will the metrics of acceptance change for each of the trials.  How will the data compare for the 0%, 50% and 100% trials?

I look forward to your predictions as to the outcomes.  Please, do NOT put yourself into the experiment.  If you are currently 'stealth' or currently 'unpassable'  YOU are not in this experiment.  Also, do not make predictions designed to defend a particular position or ideology, only predict what you feel is likely to happen given the inputs.

Humbly submitted;

Karen

[Lori]

I would think, because of the definition of a MtF transsexual, "a woman born in a male body" it is up to society to accept those that may never fit the perfect female presentation. It is not up  to the transsexual to try to fit into an artificial mold that the superficial part of society believes they should fit. A transsexual is never a man in a dress, she is a woman in a mans body.  That is her definition. If you want to distance yourself from her that is your choice but do not ever put the blame on her for not fulfilling your expectations.


beth

You are not listening to me Beth.

You said "A transsexual is never a man in a dress, she is a woman in a mans body". I know that and you know that and anybody that has learned they are Transsexual knows that. That is a given in the TS community. That is not the issue up for debate.

Get Society to understand A transsexual is never a man in a dress, she is a woman in a mans body then you will be getting somewhere.

You said "If you want to distance yourself from her that is your choice but do not ever put the blame on her for not fulfilling your expectations."

Yes I wish to isolate myself from that because until society understands the real problem and stops judging the book by its cover, it becomes a safety issue for me. I dont want to end up knifed or shot or found in a dumpster for hanging out with what society perceives as men in dresses. I am not a crusader, and wouldnt even think about it until I looked good enough to convince society I am truly a woman. I dont blame her, I blame society and am not willing to risk my life for those that do not want to blend in or refuse to or just cannot. Everybody talks about how transition is a personal journey. One would think some Transsexuals like to be heckled and talked about and snickered at behind thier backs or like confrontation with the general public by reading some of the responses.

Grow a thick skin and be proud of who you are? No thank you. Being a Transsexual/Pickle sucks. I know its not my fault or any other Transsexuals, but when you have to lose everything just to be who you are that will tell you society has a very long way to go. I will blend in and dissappear even at the cost of being single and lonely the rest of my life. At least I will be alive and free to move about without having to look over my shoulder. I wont have to deal with confrontation at the post office or snickered at when I go to get groceries, or have to deal with people at work treating me like some kind of freak.
Posted on: November 23, 2006, 11:55:26 AM

OH yes and lets not forget that this person could be MtF or FtM.

I have yet to meet a TS who has been able to ignore society.  How is that even remotely possible, you are grossly exaggerating when you refer to LOTS, and MOST, I would agree that there are some, and several.  Being out "Enfemme", give me a break, a CD would go out "Enfemme", "if" you are TS you would go out dressed as a woman.  Oh and by the way that would happen in any location not just in Texas.

"Real women that pass"?  We are talking about real women are we not?  Am I less of a woman because I don't look like those who are portrayed on that Queen of the Universe Pageant?

I'm sorry but that is a ludicrous statement, and has no bearing on being a woman and quite frankly is a typically male point of view.  I have to look like a woman before I can be treated like one.?I know several women who would be mistaken for men.

First off, most FTM transsexuals do not have the same issues in passing that many MTF's have to face. I have yet to see a single FTM that has transitioned that failed to look like a man.

Second off, Rules 10 and 15

10. Bashing or flaming of any individual is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason

15. You may challenge the issue, but never the person

Insinuating I am a CD'r or say things that a man would say makes this personal and a flame and as a Global Moderator you should know the rules.

And if you bring up the Queen of the Universe Pageant 1 more time I swear I'm going to scream. I dont know what is wrong with that pageant, I think they are all beautiful.

[Stormy Weather]

Being a Transsexual/Pickle sucks.

Apologies for being ignorant and asking this question; I'm just trying to follow the thread so that I can fully understand other's views on the matter... What's a 'Pickle' in this context?

[Dennis]

Temperatures are getting a bit high in this thread. I'm going to lock it if it doesn't cool soon.

Dennis

[Lori]

Being a Transsexual/Pickle sucks.

Apologies for being ignorant and asking this question; I'm just trying to follow the thread so that I can fully understand other's views on the matter... What's a 'Pickle' in this context?

Its my belief there are many scopes or points on the gender spectrum. I think a transsexual is one that gets surgery to become the other sex.

I say I'm a Pickle because for me its NOT about the sexual organs. I just want to be the woman I feel I am. That means looking, sounding and acting in every aspect. Yes I will have SRS but FFS is more important to me to assimalte womanhood. The sooner I can have FFS the faster I can live life as a woman. Nobody is going to lift up my skirt or hike down my drawers to see what is between my legs so that is last on my list. Given the costs of FFS I cannot afford to do both at once. HRT works on me by making certain features unhidable, and the timeline my genetics is setting pushes the transition timetable up to the point where I have to come out sooner and I would not be able to save for SRS for a couple of more years at least. I'll be forced to come out and I will NOT go fulltime until I have had FFS. I am planning a smooth transition with making as little waves as I can. I plan on being considertate to those I work with, and society in general by presenting my best look so as to not ruffle anybodies feathers or make anybody uncomfortable, including myself.

Obviously I'm not a Transsexual, so I had to make up a name for myself and I chose "Pickle". A Pickle is also a good word for the situation I'm in.

[Stormy Weather]

I say I'm a Pickle...

OK, gotcha. Thanks.

I'd never heard the phrase before related to TSness... I'd probably even agree with you to some extent although I'm post-op myself, fairly stealthy, and haven't had FFS. My personal drive for GRS was based on the need to reconcile issues of identity with documentation; passports, birth certificates etc...

The routes that people take along this path obviously vary widely and I utterly understand what you are doing in the order that you are doing them in to make things work for you.

Anyway, onwards.

[beth]

Lori said,

"You are not listening to me Beth."


This is what I heard, please correct me if I am wrong,


"As long as they parade half baked unshaven MTF's that are men with vaginas claiming they are women, that does not help and only proves to the critics that they are right"


I believe I understand that statement. It means MtF transsexuals who have had SRS and do not pass,  in your mind are simply men with vaginas.  You have every right to distance yourself from those you describe but no right to define them as men. And you are right, the statement shows either a lack of understanding as to what a transsexual is or contempt for those that do not pass. Read your own words, my posts have been in reference to those words above and I do believe I am listening.



beth

[Lori]

Lori said,

"You are not listening to me Beth."


This is what I heard, please correct me if I am wrong,


"As long as they parade half baked unshaven MTF's that are men with vaginas claiming they are women, that does not help and only proves to the critics that they are right"


I believe I understand that statement. It means MtF transsexuals who have had SRS and do not pass,  in your mind are simply men with vaginas.  You have every right to distance yourself from those you describe but no right to define them as men. And you are right, the statement shows either a lack of understanding as to what a transsexual is or contempt for those that do not pass. Read your own words, my posts have been in reference to those words above and I do believe I am listening.



beth

You assume too much Beth.

You take any audience that is NOT transgendered and put a person in front of them that is unshaven, half baked meaning they still look like a man albeit they may have some feminization from HRT, that has had SRS claiming they are a woman.....the people observing are NOT going to take that transsexual seriously. I say that because  society is going to view them as screwed up men. I know it's still a Transsexual and god bless their hearts, but there is NO way I can take them seriously either. If you have a beard, and you still look like a man, a vagina does NOT make you a woman in societies eyes no matter what you claim you feel like on the inside. All you are going to do is confuse things and make it more difficult for society to understand Transsexuality. There are ugly women but they dont go around claiming they are men trying to get society to view them different becuase they don't look like women. 

And no, I dont have contempt for them, I just dont want them representing me because they are going to do more damage than good. I'm not going to go out of my way to make fun of them or say anything to them. I will go out of my way to avoid them though. Consider me shallow and vain in that aspect, I dont want to get beaten up because they have no regard for society and do with what is acceptable.

When in Rome do as the Romans do. That is the philosophy of my transition. I've always known I was a girl but nobody is ever going to believe me or take me seriously until I actually look like one and take the necessary steps to do as women do in the general population.
Posted on: November 23, 2006, 06:03:29 PM

Hi Lori,

Just a quick question hon, if this is how you view yourself, how would you view other MTF's who follow or have followed the same path as you have?  would you consider them to be pickles as well?

I am one of those women who has put off SRS for many reasons (i.e., financial, some prior health issues, family issues, passability isues, etc, etc, etc)  Like you, I also wanted to assimilate my womanhood and undo 25 years of male behavior first. In my case, I found out that I could get away with it with just hormones and a few nicks and tucks here and there since this experience allowed me to fit in society successfully without surgery.  However, SRS has always been in my mind and I have worked very hard to save the money for it.  Some would say that SRS was not my priority, but in fact it always was and still is, for it is the only reason why I have fought so tirelessly, and the main reason why I am here today.  Given this, would you still see me as a pickle?


tinkerbell

Its up to them and you. I am not guessing who is what anymore. Since this is self diagnosed, if you want to claim you are a "pickle" given my criteria to being one, then claim that and I will accept it. I just dont feel like I fit in with the MTF Transsexual population. I am too worried about passing and being outed and worried about society to just grow out my hair, boobs, and get a vagina and force people to call me a woman. I need the voice, the face, and presentation first before I go fulltime then worry about the sexual aspects later. I need to be a woman that could never be mistaken as having ever been a man. I dont want to be a transsexual in societies eyes, just a woman with a different history. I'll even go as far as finding a surgeon to break my pelvic bone and set my hips wider if I deem that necessary but not all women have hourglass figures or curvy butts. I want a pretty face and big breasts. That will cure most of my dysphoria. The rest will be down below to complete me pr as some say, the icing on the cake. 

[beth]

Lori said,

"You are not listening to me Beth."


This is what I heard, please correct me if I am wrong,


"As long as they parade half baked unshaven MTF's that are men with vaginas claiming they are women, that does not help and only proves to the critics that they are right"


I believe I understand that statement. It means MtF transsexuals who have had SRS and do not pass,  in your mind are simply men with vaginas.  You have every right to distance yourself from those you describe but no right to define them as men. And you are right, the statement shows either a lack of understanding as to what a transsexual is or contempt for those that do not pass. Read your own words, my posts have been in reference to those words above and I do believe I am listening.



beth

You assume too much Beth.

You take any audience that is NOT transgendered and put a person in front of them that is unshaven, half baked meaning they still look like a man albeit they may have some feminization from HRT, that has had SRS claiming they are a woman.....the people observing are NOT going to take that transsexual seriously. I say that because  society is going to view them as screwed up men. I know it's still a Transsexual and god bless their hearts, but there is NO way I can take them seriously either. If you have a beard, and you still look like a man, a vagina does NOT make you a woman in societies eyes no matter what you claim you feel like on the inside. All you are going to do is confuse things and make it more difficult for society to understand Transsexuality. There are ugly women but they dont go around claiming they are men trying to get society to view them different becuase they don't look like women. 

And no, I dont have contempt for them, I just dont want them representing me because they are going to do more damage than good. I'm not going to go out of my way to make fun of them or say anything to them. I will go out of my way to avoid them though. Consider me shallow and vain in that aspect, I dont want to get beaten up because they have no regard for society and do with what is acceptable.

When in Rome do as the Romans do. That is the philosophy of my transition. I've always known I was a girl but nobody is ever going to believe me or take me seriously until I actually look like one and take the necessary steps to do as women do in the general population.
Posted on: November 23, 2006, 06:03:29 PM

Hi Lori,

Just a quick question hon, if this is how you view yourself, how would you view other MTF's who follow or have followed the same path as you have?  would you consider them to be pickles as well?

I am one of those women who has put off SRS for many reasons (i.e., financial, some prior health issues, family issues, passability isues, etc, etc, etc)  Like you, I also wanted to assimilate my womanhood and undo 25 years of male behavior first. In my case, I found out that I could get away with it with just hormones and a few nicks and tucks here and there since this experience allowed me to fit in society successfully without surgery.  However, SRS has always been in my mind and I have worked very hard to save the money for it.  Some would say that SRS was not my priority, but in fact it always was and still is, for it is the only reason why I have fought so tirelessly, and the main reason why I am here today.  Given this, would you still see me as a pickle?


tinkerbell

Its up to them and you. I am not guessing who is what anymore. Since this is self diagnosed, if you want to claim you are a "pickle" given my criteria to being one, then claim that and I will accept it. I just dont feel like I fit in with the MTF Transsexual population. I am too worried about passing and being outed and worried about society to just grow out my hair, boobs, and get a vagina and force people to call me a woman. I need the voice, the face, and presentation first before I go fulltime then worry about the sexual aspects later. I need to be a woman that could never be mistaken as having ever been a man. I dont want to be a transsexual in societies eyes, just a woman with a different history. I'll even go as far as finding a surgeon to break my pelvic bone and set my hips wider if I deem that necessary but not all women have hourglass figures or curvy butts. I want a pretty face and big breasts. That will cure most of my dysphoria. The rest will be down below to complete me pr as some say, the icing on the cake. 

Wow,

                   You just do not get it.    I will leave you with your beliefs and wish you well.


beth

[Lori]

 

Wow,

                   You just do not get it.    I will leave you with your beliefs and wish you well.


beth

Oh I get it. You are preaching to the choir. I know regardless of what the person looks like, if they were born male and say they are transsexual then they ARE WOMEN regardless of what sexual organs they have or how they represent themselves or again, WHAT they look like. I fully understand that. I'm not going to argue that.

What you fail to understand is that nobody in society is going to take them seriously unless they pass fully and there is no way I want to be associated with somebody that looks male and puts on a dress and claims themselves to be a woman and expects society to treat them as such. People are uneducated and panicky when it comes to transgendered and I dont want to cause the panic or be around the person causing it and get caught up in the melee. That is just common sence.

[Steph]

This topic has now been unlocked.  I hope that cooler heads prevail and that room temperature stays at a comfortable level so everyone can enjoy the atmosphere.  Should this topic get over heated again it will be permanently locked.

Steph

[Stormy Weather]

This topic has now been unlocked.

Thanks. It's an interesting and very relevant topic to many of us. Some things that some people have said in this thread have caused me to take a second look at my own behaviour and feelings on the matter.

[Julie Marie]

What I had hoped to accomplish was to gain an understanding why we don't have a more positive representation in the public eye.  So many of us seemed resigned to the fact that the general public sees us an aberration so our only option is to hide.  And I am just as guilty as anyone in that respect.  But as I get farther and farther out in the open I find myself becoming outraged at the treatment we receive and how it hurts practically every one of us.

The accepted practice of looking at your genitals at birth and making that the only factor as to what path you will follow is ludicrous.  Who made that rule?  Even those who are happy in their gender have expectations thrust upon them they don't want.  "It's a boy!  Okay, you will excel in sports, you'll like to play with trucks, you'll be willing to fight in wars, you will be sexually attracted to women, you will marry a woman and father children and you will raise them to believe all we believe is right and proper.  We give you no logic as to why this is."  It's simply absurd!  "And by the way, we have another rule: You must look and act in a way that will not cause us discomfort.  We don't want anyone challenging our rules."  Yeah, that's just great!  Heaven forbid someone rocks the boat! 

Some of the kindest and most understanding and well grounded people I've met are from the LGBT community. I find them to be such beautiful people inside and, when they aren't allowing society to beat them down, that beauty radiates outwardly and everyone around basks in the sunshine. 

I may come across as selfish but I want to be surrounded by that inner beauty, radiating all around me.  But it has to be freed.  And the best way I know to free it is to erase the negative stigma.  End the discrimination.

If each and every one of us, whether you live in stealth or in the closet or anywhere in between, was to go one extra step to do something to help promote a positive image, an accurate image, of who we really are, I believe this will make a real impact.  Support an activist.  Write a letter to your local newspaper, even if it's anonymous.  Write your elected officials.  Do something you ordinarily wouldn't do but keep within your level of comfort.  If we do this, and we do this often, people will eventually listen.

The day will come when there is an end to the discrimination, the prejudice, the hatred, the ignorance.  When it will come I can't say.  But if we speak up and stand up for ourselves that day will come much sooner.

What we can do from here is offer suggestions as to how we can accomplish that, more specific than what I mentioned.  I'll admit, I'm a bit lost as to where best to start so any suggestion is appreciated.

Julie

[Shana A]

I was away for a few days, just catching up now. I'm glad the thread has been unlocked, I think this is a very important discussion.

Yes Beth, the problem is not us, it's society.  While we are diagnosed with GID the reality is society has GID.  They think we all fall into one of two categories.  It's like saying there is black and white and all the other colors are mutations.  Black and white wouldn't exist without the rest of the rainbow.

Julie Marie, I totally agree with you about society having GID, I said this same thing in a different thread last week.

I totally respect everyone's decisions about how much stealth is right for them. That's a personal choice. Ultimately though I'd like to see a world where anyone could live openly as who they are, passing or not. Regardless of whether they fit neatly into one gender or the other.

zythyra

[Melissa]

What I had hoped to accomplish was to gain an understanding why we don't have a more positive representation in the public eye.  So many of us seemed resigned to the fact that the general public sees us an aberration so our only option is to hide.  And I am just as guilty as anyone in that respect.  But as I get farther and farther out in the open I find myself becoming outraged at the treatment we receive and how it hurts practically every one of us.

I agree with much of what you have said, but as Cindianna created another post, there are degrees to stealth.  Hiding is at the extreme and usually includes FFS.   Many of us actually only only blend into society and live our lives without going around telling people about our personal medical history.  I don't go around telling people I am TS unless it would be relevant to what I'm doing.  When my girlfriend was hinting that she knew I was TS, I didn't beat around the bush and try to deny it, I just said I was and showed no shame.  I think not showing shame about ourselves is one of the biggest things that will help us.  By not being ashamed of who we are, we can walk around with an aire of confidence (which usually results in us passing better anyways).  I would never actually lie about who I was because that was the whole point of transition--to stop lying about who I was.  How does the passable person who is constantly outting themselves represent the community any better than somebody who is visibly transgendered?  They don't.  The community is comprised of all kinds of people and rather than looking for others to represent it for us who don't want to, I think everybody should be the ones to step up.

I ask you this.  How can somebody who is willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars for surgery to alter their face so that they can hide in society, criticize the people who are blending in well?

Melissa

[Julie Marie]

The community is comprised of all kinds of people and rather than looking for others to represent it for us who don't want to, I think everybody should be the ones to step up.

I ask you this.  How can somebody who is willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars for surgery to alter their face so that they can hide in society, criticize the people who are blending in well?

Melissa

If you read my last post in it's entirety you will see I suggested for each one of us to do something, within our own level of comfort.  It's not a demand or a request, only a suggestion.

As for your last question, you'll have to get someone else to answer it.  I can't relate.  I have never criticized anyone for their choices.  If what I said was interpreted as criticism, that wasn't the intention.  We all have our own lives and we know what's best for us.  I fully understand that and fully agree no one should be telling us how to live it.  Isn't that what we fight when we choose to transition?

It's already been established, just in this thread alone, that many of us don't want to out ourselves but all of us want the discrimination and prejudice to end.  How do we best accomplish the latter?

Julie

[Lori]

What about being total stealth then being outed or discovered. The people around you could feel like you lied to them or feel you were hiding the truth of who you are. They may wonder what else you have been hiding in your life. Your spouse or bf or gf may get violent with you as well. I dont know if it is really possible to live in stealth forever safely. Yet outing yourself may lend to you being single anyhow. Its just a huge mess.

[Melissa]

If you read my last post in it's entirety you will see I suggested for each one of us to do something, within our own level of comfort.  It's not a demand or a request, only a suggestion.

As for your last question, you'll have to get someone else to answer it.  I can't relate.  I have never criticized anyone for their choices.  If what I said was interpreted as criticism, that wasn't the intention.  We all have our own lives and we know what's best for us.  I fully understand that and fully agree no one should be telling us how to live it.  Isn't that what we fight when we choose to transition?

It's already been established, just in this thread alone, that many of us don't want to out ourselves but all of us want the discrimination and prejudice to end.  How do we best accomplish the latter?

Julie

I did read your post in it's entirety and as I said:

I agree with much of what you have said...

If you notice the wording on my last question, the question wasn't specifically directed at you.

Melissa