Living In Stealth - Does It Hurt Us?

[SusanK]

I think the hair we're splitting is about self-acceptance...

If you want to bear the torch, demand that insurance companies cover the multiple doctor's visits and medical procedures no differently then any other recognized birth defect.  Fight to make transition more accesible to people of lesser means.  No one should have to wait until they can afford it to "be" the gender they are.

I'll add my $.02 (again) and say it's been a very interesting and informative thread. Thanks.

I'll say to me it's not really about self-acceptance, that's what's usually resolved with therapy, hormones and the initial fulltime living experience, but it's about what many posts have touched on, social and public acceptance. I don't think any of us don't accept we're (trans)women, and you can debate the prefix till the cows come home, to me, it's about going out the front door. It's 90+% of my self-doubt.

This is where I'm learning to watch women and discover I don't have to fit into the range of stereotypical transwomen, the rules many seem to insist is "normal" (eg. makeup, clothes, shopping, etc.), but the range of natal women and just be myself somewhere in their range. I know I won't fit into men's view of "normal" women, but then I know most women don't either, so why try?

The thoughts about support groups are interesting. I rarely go to any, much to the chagrin of my therapist who's always pushing me to "get support", and it's why I don't go. It's the the support I need but the personal confidence in the world. Sitting in a support group won't necessarily help you walk down the street or sitting in a cafe. That's the goal in my transistion, to get by in life doing what I want, and if occasionally someone ask, "Excuse me, can I ask...?", then so be it.

I agree with the point that maybe the activism shouldn't be so much about acceptance, although it's important for work and other areas where discrimination exists, but about health care coverage. This is where we can all stand up as a community with HBIGDA or its reincarnation to push for easier access and affordable coverage. I think this is where all the stealth transwomen can really help by telling their stories, not just for a positive role model but for showing why we need affordable health care, to be just one of the women in the world.

And now back to your regular programming.

Thanks, Susan.

[Julie Marie]

Self acceptance isn't going to stop the funny looks, the discrimination, the prejudice or the attacks.  HRT alone isn't going to make the majority of us passable.  Many MTF TSs remain in the closet for decades, and some never come out, because they feel they'll never pass.  How many have taken their own lives because they think they will never be able to live their life as a woman?  A more accepting society would make a world of difference and allow them to be themselves without all the discrimination, prejudice and feelings of hopelessness.

Living in completely stealth doesn't hurt us as a group, but it certainly doesn't help us.  By completely I mean there's no contact with the TG world whatsoever.  No meetings, no forum participation, you live a life completely separated from the TG world.  The only person who is helped by that is the individual.  I'm not being critical, I'm just stating fact as I see it.

I came here in need.  I needed to know there was other girls who were struggling with the same thing I am.  I needed to know there were girls who have overcome those things I struggle with.  I needed to know there is hope for a happy life.  Many of those who have helped me are living in stealth, but they haven't forgotten how tough a road it was getting there and they are giving back.  And I have been lucky to have gained from their contribution.  That is what makes for a strong community.

My Internet experience began at a CD forum.  Almost all the girls there were totally closeted.  But they still helped me.  And when I had resolved many of my issues, I helped those coming in.  When I found myself unable to get the answers to questions I had (because I was a TS in a CD forum) I came here and the process started all over.  But I still go back there and do whatever I can to help them.

In a sense, when I'm being me, I'm somewhat in stealth.  I don't go advertising I'm TS or dress in a way that makes it obvious.  That serves no purpose other than to make us look bad.  But if I'm clocked and someone says something, I won't deny I'm TS.  Right now the beard alone outs me by the end of the day so I would come across as a liar to the person who clocked me.  But I will respond with dignity and make sure my response gives that person something positive to think about.

I agree with Brina on many points.  We do need a better voice.  We've been riding the tailcoats of the gay/lesbian movement and many of them don't want us.  They feel the things they are fighting for will be harder to get passed if we are included because society isn't ready to accept cross-gender expression.  And they are right!  That means we need to get out there and educate the public as to what we are really all about.  I know several very passable women who are doing that and they are usually greeted very well. 

Beautiful transsexuals are our best weapon in changing the negative stigma the sensationalized media has created.  Bill O'Reilly chose to feature a TS activist but picked someone who could easily play a defensive lineman.  I know that was done intentionally to bolster the negative image and satisfy his own prejudice.  Had he chosen a totally passable and beautiful representative, most of his comments would have been seen as being cruel and heartless.  Our society will not tolerate cruelty to women and a beautiful TS is seen as a woman.

The problem is few passable & beautiful TSs want to out themselves because initially it could be devastating.  On the flip side being outed can be far worse.  Carolyn Cossey's outing is a perfect example of that.  The public's image of us has to be changed if we, as a group, will ever live in complete peace.

Julie

[Steph]

...

Beautiful transsexuals are our best weapon in changing the negative stigma the sensationalized media has created.  Bill O'Reilly chose to feature a TS activist but picked someone who could easily play a defensive lineman.  I know that was done intentionally to bolster the negative image and satisfy his own prejudice.  Had he chosen a totally passable and beautiful representative, most of his comments would have been seen as being cruel and heartless.  Our society will not tolerate cruelty to women and a beautiful TS is seen as a woman.

The problem is few passable & beautiful TSs want to out themselves because initially it could be devastating.  On the flip side being outed can be far worse.  Carolyn Cossey's outing is a perfect example of that.  The public's image of us has to be changed if we, as a group, will ever live in complete peace.

Julie

[rant]
I'm sorry Julie but I find it the notion that my rights would be better served if I was represented by someone who is beautiful, extremely offensive,  as should any other TS Woman.  The whole idea is ludicrous, demeans us women to even think that you have to beautiful to do us any good.  You may like to be represented by the beautiful women portrayed in the Queen of the Universe Pageant but I would rather be represented by a well grounded everyday run of the mill TS person (notice I didn't mention man or woman).  Two who come to mind are Joanne Law, and our very own Leigh who needs no introduction, and again would be the first to tell you that she was standing in the wrong line when they were handing out beautiful looks.  Then Joanne who was recently honoured by our capital city Ottawa for the work she has done for the TS community here in Canada, and guess what SHE DOES NOT PASS, and she will be the first to tell you that.

i just want to reinforce to everyone here that we are are all beautiful inside and don't let anyone tell you different.  Folks need to wake up and smell the coffee.
[/rant]
Steph

[Refugee]

The problem is few passable & beautiful TSs want to out themselves because initially it could be devastating.  On the flip side being outed can be far worse.  Carolyn Cossey's outing is a perfect example of that.  The public's image of us has to be changed if we, as a group, will ever live in complete peace.

I think this is a fallicy.  It assumes that all TSs retain that identity for life.  I would argue that those that can get on with the rest of their life do so at the point they're able to fit in to the rest of society regardless of whether its pre/post op.  Notice I said fit in, not blend in.

In terms of finding fault in ourseleves, as long as badly passing TSs do little to change their situation, or care little about changing and continue to "act like men in dresses" all while shouting at the world "I am a woman and I demand you accept me as nothing less" the "world" is going to continue to say "Um, no we don't".

The world is right, not us.

[Steph]

In terms of finding fault in ourseleves, as long as badly passing TSs do little to change their situation, or care little about changing and continue to "act like men in dresses" all while shouting at the world "I am a woman and I demand you accept me as nothing less" the "world" is going to continue to say "Um, no we don't".

The world is right, not us.

Who is to say that "badly passing TSs" are doing little to change their situation?  You assume too far too much Refugee, and where does it say that they "Have" to pass.  There goes that broad paint brush again.

I'm very saddened by recent views that serve to pigeon hole us even more that we are already are.  When a person is diagnosed with GID, Dr's don't put in brackets qualifiers like doesn't pass, passes with make-up, passes at 100 feet.  Geez if a person is diagnosed as GID then they are GID period, and deserve and equal amount of support.

Steph

[Sheila]

I don't think we have to be beautiful to get our points across. I think I'm doing a fairly good job at meeting people on a one on one basis. I don't pass that well, but if someone were to just look at me and not study me then I do pass. I'm sure that if they got down to it then I wouldn't pass at all. I know I'm not the a beautiful woman, but I'm 57 and I think I look younger than that. I pass for the kids on my bus and some of the parents and I act like a woman my age. No, I don't hide my TS but I don't advertise it either. If someone were the ask me I would, like someone else here, say what are you talking about. If it is important, like physical or my job, of course I'm not going to lie about my TS. It will come up and maybe it is important. I just don't worry about it anymore.
  Someone here started in on the Gays. We are very different group. Just like race is a different group. Bigotry hits all of us and that is what we are fighting. We should all be treated as human beings and no one should be treated any different. We all have our prejudices with others, but when it comes down to it we can stand up for our fellow 'man', without the prejudices. I don't like to be politically correct all the time and I don't mind a little joke. We need to lighten up some.
Sheila

[Julie Marie]

[rant]
I'm sorry Julie but I find it the notion that my rights would be better served if I was represented by someone who is beautiful, extremely offensive,  as should any other TS Woman.  The whole idea is ludicrous, demeans us women to even think that you have to beautiful to do us any good.  You may like to be represented by the beautiful women portrayed in the Queen of the Universe Pageant but I would rather be represented by a well grounded everyday run of the mill TS person (notice I didn't mention man or woman).  Two who come to mind are Joanne Law, and our very own Leigh who needs no introduction, and again would be the first to tell you that she was standing in the wrong line when they were handing out beautiful looks.  Then Joanne who was recently honoured by our capital city Ottawa for the work she has done for the TS community here in Canada, and guess what SHE DOES NOT PASS, and she will be the first to tell you that.

i just want to reinforce to everyone here that we are are all beautiful inside and don't let anyone tell you different.  Folks need to wake up and smell the coffee.
[/rant]
Steph

Steph, I try my best to get my point across the way I intended it to be but I don't always succeed.  I apologize to anyone who took offense to what I wrote.  I never intended it to be offensive.  I just failed to explain what was in my head.  I know many people and judge them for who they are, not what they look like.  When I re-read my post I saw how I failed to say what I was thinking.  And when I tried to put in words what was in my head I just couldn't.  It's a subject that requires verbal exchange.     

Again, if I offended anyone I'm truly sorry.
 
Julie

[Refugee]

In terms of finding fault in ourseleves, as long as badly passing TSs do little to change their situation, or care little about changing and continue to "act like men in dresses" all while shouting at the world "I am a woman and I demand you accept me as nothing less" the "world" is going to continue to say "Um, no we don't".

The world is right, not us.

Who is to say that "badly passing TSs" are doing little to change their situation?  You assume too far too much Refugee, and where does it say that they "Have" to pass.  There goes that broad paint brush again.

For the fact that I wrote it early this morning after I'd just gotten off work, I don't think I was clear enough in what I was saying.  When a TS makes only a token effort to "pass" as a woman, not that I'm excluding FtMs but the thread seems to be revolving around MtFs, she has very little to be upset about when the rest of society disagrees with her. 

[Lori]

I know I am going to royaly piss somebody off with this post and may even get banned for it, but this is what I truly believe from experience and by listening to those that have fully transitioned and lived amongst the wolves.

Julie, I didnt take offense to what you said at all. In fact I think you are right. If anything you showed restraint in holding back trying to be careful. As long as they parade half baked unshaven MTF's that are men with vaginas claiming they are women, that does not help and only proves to the critics that they are right and that MTF TS are men trying to be women for some other reasons then what most of us claim. Having passable (dont have to be beautiful or pretty) TS women paraded around that have done everything to assume roles as women, that actually LOOK and ACT like women, not just what they have between the legs, would be positive and show that just like everything in society there are different types of TS people.

There are straight acting gays and flamers. Most gays do not like flaming queens because it draws too much negative attention to thier cause and to them as a group. Just like a badly passing TS hurt the TS cause it will draw negative attention and spread the idea that men can never be women. That is fact, and the truth. It hurts to hear it, read it, and accept it, but society is cruel. Beauty wins in this war. A pretty woman is going to get away with a lot more even with a TS history then an ugly feminized man in a dress with a vagina. There are ugly people and pretty people and there are just plain people that do well. I would hope to do well and just pass. A non passing trans is not going to help the cause. The prettier you can be, the better off things are. A woman has her beauty. I for one totaly agree with you Julie 100%.

I know how things should be but they are not. I think there are a lot of TS with thier heads buried in the sand that are able to ignore society. I dont know wether to envy that or laugh. Most people are shallow and vain and will give you the once over and decide right there within ten seconds on how to treat you. They wont get the chance to see how beautiful on the inside because they have already judged you on the outside. I've been out enfemme with others that do NOT pass and its not all roses and parades here in Texas. What may work in one geographical location does not work in others. If you dont pass down here, you will be outed and made a fool of an you better know how to fight because chances are you are going to get your butt kicked. If you pass you will be accepted and treated like a woman regardless of your past.

TS are not going to change society and its views. We are too few. In society there are men and women. Gender bending is what trannies and ->-bleeped-<-s and transvestites do and they are wildly displayed on porn sites. We cannot compete with the damage that has been done by that, nor can we fight incompetence, nor re-educate the world. The best hope we have is real women that pass that have a TS history to stand up and fight for our rights. Nobody is going to take somebody that looks bad seriously. That is just how life is.

Those that pass have fewer problems. Those that dont pass live as hermit crabs afraid of society and have a hard time getting jobs or have attitudes that damage other TS. Some have to go to meetings every month so somebody can tell them they are a good person so they dont kill themselves. Its sad and its sick and disheartening what society can do to somebody. But its their playing field and if we want to play then we have to play by their rules. Society is NOT ready for TS especially those that do not or cannot conform to what is acceptable. Having an "I dont give a sh*t attitude and "I don't care what you think, I'm a woman accept me or else" attitude is only going to make things worse.

Its up to each TS to do anything and everything they can to adjust to the opposite gender as best as they can and do without an attitude. FFS should be required before SRS in my book. Nobody looks down below. You pass from the neck up. Being a woman is way more than having a vagina. That sounds more sexual to me than gender related.

[Melissa]

Just because somebody does pass does not obligate them to constantly out themselves when they could be getting on with their lives and being born with this condition does not obligate somebody to "give to the community".  I know I personally do not care to be known in my life as a TS activist or even a TS for that matter.  It may sound selfish, but I personally have always had big dreams and now that I have finally faced some barriers that have haunted me all my life, I wish to continue pursuing those big dreams and those dreams do NOT involve being TS, a woman, or part of the community.

When many of us come out, we wish others would just accept who we are as if it were no big deal rather than for the shock value (unless you're on Jerry Springer), yet we are constantly trying to make it a big deal out of all of this.  Many people get stuck in this gender limbo and lose focus of what they wanted to do with their lives.  Just remember that we can not change people.  Only they can change themselves.  I know we can educate people and I will leave that to the activists--people better suited to successfully actually help the cause.

One major thing we can do that will help is to just transition.  When somebody transitions, they usually come out to many people and in the process educate them.  It is not the responsibility of people who have put more into their own transitions to pull the weight of those who are not able to put as much effort/time/money/whatever into their transition.  That's like telling rich people that they need to give money to the poor because it will make the world better.  It's not going to happen.  You know what will make a difference?  Time.  As the world continues to move on and younger generations grow to be the older generations, tolerance will get better.

Shoot me down if you will, but this is my personal view on the whole matter.  I'm sorry if my view offends anybody, but I tried to word it in a way that wouldn't.  It seems this is a very hot and touchy subject at the moment though.

Melissa

[brina]

Hiee,
 This is a great thread. As before the the Elite woman pass well and they are the minority on that end of the grouping. On the other end I suppose are the ones who for whatever reason simply don't pass well and they also are a minority and on the other side of the grouping. GID is GID you either are afflicted by it or NOT. The acceptance is ABOUT society accepting Transexuals as woman and NOT about Transexuals accepting themselves as woman. I would like to think that I embrace all who are transexual both the beauties and the beasts as we all suffer from the same condition. My primary interest though is for the large grouping in the middle who succeed for the most part but do get 'Read' from time to time. Society is ignorant about us and will continue to be so Until we Collectively Educate them about who we are. For those who think it is futile to try and educate then let my remind you that there was a time when people thought the earth was Flat, that man could never fly in the air and that we would never Step on the Moon to name but a few.
 As to those who have mentioned that TS's NEED to have FFS and that THEY NEED to be PRETTY I am nothing short of INSULTED by such statements. While I personally may not be pretty I think I do blend in with the woman of my age range. I suppose everyone has an EGO just some appear much Large then Others!
 My final observation is again that way to many are solely interested in their own lives and could care less about those less fortunate.
 We do live in a democracy and everyone can choose to do what they feel is appropriate for themselves.

Byee,
 Brina

[Melissa]

 As to those who have mentioned that TS's NEED to have FFS and that THEY NEED to be PRETTY I am nothing short of INSULTED by such statements. While I personally may not be pretty I think I do blend in with the woman of my age range. I suppose everyone has an EGO just some appear much Large then Others!

I agree that there is way too much focus on beauty.  By focusing on the need to pass so much, some of us can lose sight about the experience of living as a woman.  I for one was concentrating way too hard on too many details at the beginning of fulltime, but have just recently (a few weeks ago) backed off and stopped trying so hard on the voice or the walk and still seem to have no problem.  The thing is, many of us don't give ourselves enough credit that we can pass because we look with blinders and only see old features we grew up considering masculine.  We need to just live and be ourselves.  I am not saying to leave the stubble and expect to pass.  However, if you want to live that way then go ahead and do so, but just don't expect others to do the footwork of gaining acceptance for you.

Melissa

[Steph]

I know I am going to royaly piss somebody off with this post and may even get banned for it, but this is what I truly believe from experience and by listening to those that have fully transitioned and lived amongst the wolves.

Julie, I didnt take offense of it at all. In fact I think you are right. As long as they parade half baked unshaven MTF's that are men with vaginas claiming they are women, that does not help and only proves to the critics that they are right and that MTF TS are men trying to be women for some other reasons then what most of us claim. Having passable (dont have to be beautiful or pretty) TS women paraded around that have done everything to assume roles as women, that actually LOOK and ACT like women, not just what they have between the legs, would be positive and show that just like everything in society there are different types of TS people.

Yes I agree after all "everyone" who matters watches Jerry Springer and the social commentary his show provides.  Yes and you're right that news programs will parade anything to boost their ratings, they don't give a rats behind, look at the latest Fox debacle over OJ Simpson, ya right.  Why is there a need to "parade" anyone around, good bad or otherwise.  We don't need parades we need people who are willing to fight tooth and nail for the rights that everyone else enjoys as guaranteed through constitutions, Charters of Rights & Freedoms and what ever else different countries use to grant human rights.  Yes it would be nice to have the TS poster child at the fore front of our cause but I would settle on a person who looked like Dame Edna if they were able to win me those freedoms.  OH yes and lets not forget that this person could be MtF or FtM.

There are straight acting gays and flamers. Most gays do not like flaming queens because it draws too much negative attention to thier cause and to them as a group. Just like a badly passing TS hurt the TS cause it will draw negative attention and spread the idea that men can never be women. That is fact, and the truth. It hurts to hear it, read it, and accept it, but society is cruel. Beauty wins in this war. A pretty woman is going to get away with a lot more even with a TS history then an ugly feminized man in a dress with a vagina. There are ugly people and pretty people and there are just plain people that do well. I would hope to do well and just pass. A non passing trans is not going to help the cause. The prettier you can be, the better off things are. A woman has her beauty. I for one totaly agree with you Julie 100%.

Here's an old cliche - "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder".  Here's a thought... So a TS man or woman is willing to stand amongst her peers, out themselves, risk life and limb, to agree to appear on a show like the "View" and talk about what it is like to be a TS woman, the agony and the hell that she faces knowing that even though she has been diagnosed as GID, she will have difficulty passing, if at all, her voice is too low, she is less than pretty, but she still deserves to be afforded those rights and freedoms granted to everyone else, would you not support her.  I don't see a huge line up of volunteers who are willing to go regional, national, or international with our cause ( and that includes me)

I know how things should be but they are not. I think there are a lot of TS with thier heads buried in the sand that are able to ignore society. I dont know wether to envy that or laugh. Most people are shallow and vain and will give you the once over and decide right there within ten seconds on how to treat you. They wont get the chance to see how beautiful on the inside because they have already judged you on the outside. I've been out enfemme with others that do NOT pass and its not all roses and parades here in Texas. What may work in one geographical location does not work in others. If you dont pass down here, you will be outed and made a fool of an you better know how to fight because chances are you are going to get your butt kicked. If you pass you will be accepted and treated like a woman regardless of your past.

I have yet to meet a TS who has been able to ignore society.  How is that even remotely possible, you are grossly exaggerating when you refer to LOTS, and MOST, I would agree that there are some, and several.  Being out "Enfemme", give me a break, a CD would go out "Enfemme", "if" you are TS you would go out dressed as a woman.  Oh and by the way that would happen in any location not just in Texas.

TS are not going to change society and its views. We are too few. In society there are men and women. Gender bending is what trannies and ->-bleeped-<-s and transvestites do and they are wildly displayed on porn sites. We cannot compete with the damage that has been done by that, nor can we fight incompetence, nor re-educate the world. The best hope we have is real women that pass that have a TS history to stand up and fight for our rights. Nobody is going to take somebody that looks bad seriously. That is just how life is.

"Real women that pass"?  We are talking about real women are we not?  Am I less of a woman because I don't look like those who are portrayed on that Queen of the Universe Pageant?

Those that pass have fewer problems. Those that dont pass live as hermit crabs afraid of society and have a hard time getting jobs or have attitudes that damage other TS. Some have to go to meetings every month so somebody can tell them they are a good person so they dont kill themselves. Its sad and its sick and disheartening what society can do to somebody. But its their playing field and if we want to play then we have to play by their rules. Society is NOT ready for TS especially those that do not or cannot conform to what is acceptable. Having an "I dont give a sh*t attitude and "I don't care what you think, I'm a woman accept me or else" attitude is only going to make things worse.

So we should all give up and crawl under our respective rocks and live in fear the rest of our lives.  Not way, No way.  I pass pretty well, and I'm blessed with average looks.  I live in a very conservative city.  There is a blue collar club that I frequent and I was having a great time, men would ask me to dance, and want to date etc. until someone found out my past, and the word spread like wild fire.  Guess what, I might have well been that unshaven man in a dress blah, blah...  But does that stop me going, no freakin way, there is no way that anyone is going to drive me out of my city unless it is in the back of a hurst.

Its up to each TS to do anything and everything they can to adjust to the opposite gender as best as they can and do without an attitude. FFS should be required before SRS in my book. Nobody looks down below. You pass from the neck up. Being a woman is way more than having a vagina. That sounds more sexual to me than gender related.

I'm sorry but that is a ludicrous statement, and has no bearing on being a woman and quite frankly is a typically male point of view.  I have to look like a woman before I can be treated like one.?I know several women who would be mistaken for men.

Steph
Posted on: November 21, 2006, 06:17:44 PM

In terms of finding fault in ourseleves, as long as badly passing TSs do little to change their situation, or care little about changing and continue to "act like men in dresses" all while shouting at the world "I am a woman and I demand you accept me as nothing less" the "world" is going to continue to say "Um, no we don't".

The world is right, not us.

Who is to say that "badly passing TSs" are doing little to change their situation?  You assume too far too much Refugee, and where does it say that they "Have" to pass.  There goes that broad paint brush again.

For the fact that I wrote it early this morning after I'd just gotten off work, I don't think I was clear enough in what I was saying.  When a TS makes only a token effort to "pass" as a woman, not that I'm excluding FtMs but the thread seems to be revolving around MtFs, she has very little to be upset about when the rest of society disagrees with her. 

Beg to differ...

If that were the case then we would demand that everyone here post their pic on the site to determin if they pass or not, and there by not bring discredit to Susan's.  Who are we to judge what efforts a person is making to pass, is there a bench mark?

Yes it would be nice to have only the "Beautiful People" represent us, but one only has to look at the miss Universe Pageant to realize that if we put world peace in their hands we would be in a world of hurt.

Yes that was a stereotypical remark.

Steph

[Teri Anne]

When I was a teenager thirty something years ago, I watched a "Donohue" show wherein Donohue talked briefly to a teenage M2F TS.  She was so pretty, to this day I remember Donohue gesturing towards her, asking, "Who could object to her?"  But as Steph (who I think most will agree is very pretty) pointed out, " Men would ask me to dance, and want to date etc. until someone found out my past, and the word spread like wild fire.  Guess what, I might have well been that unshaven man in a dress blah, blah..."

That has happened to me.  Before meeting male or female "dates," I suggested that "to take the tension out of things, why don't we just meet and see if we can become friends?"  After a few get-togethers, when the friendship seemed to be getting good, I'd reveal my past and they ran away (not literally, more figuratively).  I have stopped dating.  After awhile, you just long for peace.

The Jerry Springer thing (ugly white trash TG's screaming at one another) caused me much anxiety, fear and (at worst) self-loathing during my transition.  Was I as crazy as these people?  Of course, that's silly.  There are a lot of blacks who scream at one another on that show and I would hope most blacks don't worry about whether it impacts respect for their race.  Springer is obviously a gathering place for rehearsed fights and lunacy.

Regarding being "out," I remember being told once, by co-workers, that they'd heard positive-sounding gossip at other movie studios that there was a television editor who was a transsexual.  Coworkers told me about it because they knew I was the one.  I hadn't told anyone but my coworkers but, as my ex said, any talk of sexual differences spreads like wildfire through companies.  When I was working, I was actually kind of proud to know of this rumor.  To me, it showed the world how a TS can be a success, not just a joke on Springer.  Since becoming unemployed (my show was cancelled and they never found me another one), I guess I'm sad that I can no longer be that example.  My being semi-famous was thrust upon me.  I certainly didn't want it.  Anyway, as I've said, I'm moving to Washington and a new semi-retired life.

Just four friends know me up there and hopefully, as I've asked, they'll keep my sexual identity a secret.  After being in the semi-spotlight (and possible back-room-derision), I look forwards to a quiet peaceful future...

...as just another middle-aged woman.

Teri Anne

[Buffy]

Yes - this has been a good debate with many differing views and opinions.

To me it still is a matter of choice, I choose what to do with my life, not be swayed by the majority or listen to other peoples opinions on how I am either right or wrong, in what I have done.

To have that choice, to live my wife as a woman, without having to disclose my life, is something I have worked hard at to achieve. I don't think that is wrong.

I admire poeple who wish to be activists, I admire people who wish to disclose their past and I admire very much people who have no choice in the matter and continue through transition even though society deems they do not fit into the "accepted" Female stereotype (whatever that is).

It was always my choice to be fully integrated into society, to be fully active socially, in business and in sport, dating when I could and having to face the consequences of my past (if and when they came up). So far it has not and I am happy to continue in that vain.

I was born transexxual, I will never deny that, but I have progressed through a process to be openly accepted as Female in society. To me that is what I set out to do, thats why I entered the process, thats why I went through Gender Reassignment.

I just want to be an average woman, living a happy life, not a recognised transsexual potentially living a life of discrimination.

My choice.

Buffy

[melissa90299]

The late Gianna E. Israel, author of Transgender Care and counseler of over 3,000 transwomen told me that she would mark some of her client's files "FFS required." (I wasn't one of those BTW) As far as being pretty,a lot of post-FFS women aren't pretty. But there is a certain minimum  standard of feminine presentation that needs to be attained before a transwoman can expect to successfully and "happily" live as a woman. To deny this is, simply, to be in denial.

[tinkerbell]

First I would like to apologize if I have offended any of you with my convictions.  But I am a woman, and I will never get tired of repeating it over and over again.  If anyone here is willing to become an activist for transgender rights, be my guest, but please don't expect me to follow your beliefs, for all of us here mold to our lives the best way we can without asking anything from anybody. (except for advice, perhaps)

Passing As Privilege
Part Two of a Series on Transfeminism
By Jessica Xavier

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Privilege is a concept which feminists use as a tool to critically analyze societal and personal power imbalances. While the majority of transgendered and transsexual people are not feminists, most of us are nevertheless somewhat familiar with male privilege, since we are bashed so often for either retaining it (MTFs) or selling out to obtain it (FTMs). Besides male privilege, there are other traditional forms of privilege based on class and race that are important considerations for feminists and progressive lefties like me. However, the new transfeminist formulations of privilege are far more important to transgendered people, since they address the power imbalances experienced by us.

Birth privilege is being born into a physical sex that matches your internal gender identity, and possessing it allows nontranssexuals to avoid the many deleterious consequences of gender dysphoria. No matter how many surgeries we have, we can never gain birth privilege - a fact that many transsexual women seem to have difficulty accepting. Like other traditional forms of privilege, it's possessors are clueless about it, since they were (surprise) born with it. For the birth privileged, being born into bodies that don't torture them with the absurdity of inappropriate genitalia is simply a given, taken immediately for granted. Without understanding their birth privilege, the nons simply cannot understand transsexual people, a failing which produces and perpetuates a social ill only transgendered people experience - transphobia.

The lack of birth privilege is a permanent deficit that not only shapes but dominates our existence. Thus passing privilege becomes far more significant to us throughout the course of our lives. Passing privilege is passing undetected as a member of the majority - white, straight or non-transgendered. In a previous essay, I analyzed Erving Goffman's Stigma: Notes on the Management of Spoiled Identity (1963: Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ). In Goffman's dichotomy of socially stigmatized groups, those who lack passing privilege are the discredited, with obvious and unconcealable stigma. They cope with their stigma through tension management - various tactics which reduce the impact of their stigma on their interpersonal relationships. But the passing privileged are discreditable - their stigma is concealable, yet they remain vulnerable to its disclosure. Their concern is with information control - "to tell or not to tell, to let on or not let on, to lie or not to lie, and in each case, to whom, when and where."

People who cannot or chose not to conform to rigid cultural norms for their gender, as based upon their physical sex, are gender variant. While we trans people are familiar with gender variant expressions and cross gender identities, there are many other forms of gender variance exhibited by all kinds of people - regardless of their sexual or gender identities. The most common examples of gender variance are the reproductive and marriage choices of many nontransgendered women, who choose not to get married nor to have children. Another is working in a stereotypically opposite gender based occupation - like men who are nurses and women who are construction workers. There's also grooming (such as men with long hair or earrings, or women with short hair or facial hair), types of male clothing worn by women and girls, and effeminate mannerisms in men or masculine mannerisms in women. And although most of them don't realize it, gay, lesbian and bisexual people also are gender variant, because they are defying cultural norms for their sexualities in their same-gender sexual relationships. Because passing privilege explains the power imbalances between overt and covert forms of gender variance amongst the sexual minorities, it becomes equally relevant to gay, lesbian and bisexual people as well as to transgendered people. As such, it is a key component of transfeminist analysis, as important as male privilege has been to earlier waves of feminism.

With the exception of some no-ho/no-op trans people (who live full- time and are not interested in hormonal and surgical sex reassignment), obtaining the ability to pass in our chosen genders is a major focus (if not obsession) of transgendered people of both gender vectors (MTF and FTM), from part-time crossdressers to transsexuals seeking to live full- time. Passing affords all of us physical safety in public spaces, and for those of us living full-time, job security and access to the social, economic and professional pathways of the nontransgendered. Thus the vast majority of MTFs and many if not most FTMs become careful observers of those with birth privilege in their chosen genders. The observations and evaluations we make about gender roles, behaviors and especially appearances are incorporated over time into our own chosen gender expressions. Many of us consider ourselves to be experts about gender expression and passing itself. Thus passing as a member of the majority assumes a saliency in our psyches, while remaining largely unconsidered by the other sexual minorities.

However, passing privilege, like other forms of privilege, is based upon full-time living status. Thus almost all crossdressers who do not live full-time, regardless of their ability to pass as women, still have passing privilege - since they pass for the majority of their lives as straight, nontransgendered men. It's true that a small minority of crossdressers retain some overt evidence of their transgendered status (long hair, long fingernails, absence of facial and body hair, etc.). However, they are more likely to be perceived as gay, not transgendered, due to trans- ignorance amongst the nons. In this regard, most crossdressers are similar to gay and bisexual men who are straight-acting and straight-appearing. Since same-gender sex is usually not performed in public view, their gender variant behaviors are covert and episodic, and thus they too have passing privilege - they pass as heterosexual men.

Passing privilege creates a significant power imbalance in the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered community, since it allows its possessors to escape the intense societal stigmatization and marginalization associated with being queer. Those who pass as nontransgendered or straight simply do not experience as much external oppression as those who do not. The lack of passing privilege makes it far more likely for someone, regardless of their sexual identity, to fall victim to discrimination, harassment and violence. Indeed, anyone who is perceived as queer - regardless of their sexual orientation - either lacks passing privilege or has forfeited it, by choice or by an overt act.

The impact of passing privilege on the political "LGBT" movement have been painfully obvious. Because the majority of gay men and lesbians possess it, they have the luxury of dominating the movement with their gay and lesbian identity politics, which erases the sizable visible gender variance within their own communities. Gay and lesbian identity politics dumbs down the reason for their oppression to invisible acts committed mostly in the privacy of bedrooms. But who you sleep with doesn't get you into trouble - it's what you look like and how you act. One would think that visibly gender variant gay men and lesbians would be our immediate allies, but traditionally they have been almost as marginalized as trans people by their passing privileged peers. The covert and overt forms of gender variance, as manifested by the passing privileged and the visibly queer, have created deep divisions within and amongst the sexual minorities. One of the most glaring consequences is a "civil rights" movement that seeks to protect only the (already passing) privileged, with a leadership all too willing to sacrifice its community's most vulnerable members, as it panders to the genderphobia of straight legislators.

But the impact of passing privilege is felt far beyond just the LGBT political movement. Passing privilege has some unique qualities that separates it from other traditional forms of privilege which are bestowed at birth. For some transgendered and transsexual people seeking to live full-time, passing privilege can be gained through the administration of exogenous hormones, various cosmetic procedures and surgeries. However, the majority ultimately fail to obtain passing privilege, ironically prevented by their lack of birth privilege. There are simply too many physical characteristics produced by the surge of hormones during adolescence that cannot be erased by hormones and surgery in later years. Moreover, accessing these medical technologies is difficult and expensive, and usually a function of class and race privilege. Thus all transgendered people who go full-time will, at least at some point during their gender transitions, lack passing privilege. Even those who pass well enough while clothed or made-up lose their passing privilege in intimate situations - which is why many do not get routine medical check-ups, or even seek treatment for acute illnesses.

And there is an even darker side to passing privilege. Although no one talks about it, a hierarchy exists amongst transsexual women based upon it. In my own estimation, only about a third of transsexual women pass perfectly - thus allowing them to conceal their transsexual status. Passing privilege creates friction in our support groups between those with and without it. The passing privileged are usually a group's most popular members, and coveted as companions. Sadly, those who lack passing privilege are often rudely rebuffed by those who possess it when their friendship is sought. Thus passing privilege creates divisiveness even within our support groups, as it destroys solidarity and cripples our community- building efforts.

Goffman presented an interesting paradox, in that those with the ability to pass and conceal their stigma are simultaneously admired and despised by those who cannot. He also noted that the passing fortunate pay significant psychic costs, in order to continuously maintain the concealment of their stigma. Thus transsexual women living in stealth must not only remain constantly on guard, but also silently accept the nontransgendered majority's pejorative perspective of themselves when they encounter it. For example, I know one transsexual woman who must listen silently to her intensely transphobic but unknowing husband rant and rave through any talk show featuring trans people. I am amazed at how these stealthy transsexual women can suffer the emotional and spiritual consequences of living in stealth, their new lives made possible solely through their passing privilege. Surely this must be our Faustian bargain - the costly price we must pay for 'real' womanhood, that total assimilation extracts and subtracts from us.

Yet we transsexual women will still move heaven and earth to obtain the prize of passing privilege which, for many, is still sadly beyond their physical reach. There are even those of us who are post- operative and passing privileged, who nevertheless continue to undergo additional surgeries in a fruitless pursuit of that which they will never have - birth privilege. No privilege of any kind can ever erase the facts of our births - we will never be nontranssexual.

It is interesting to contrast this passionate pursuit of passing privilege by transsexual women with the attitudes of transsexual men regarding it. I estimate that 90% of transsexual men eventually gain passing privilege, but there is a painful irony here. Spending half-lives developing a queer consciousness within their lesbian communities, many transsexual men of my acquaintance are not only aware but also ambivalent about their passing privilege. Passing perfectly as nontransgendered, usually straight men, their queerness becomes erased and taken from them. They even become viewed as the oppressor (if white) or as a potential predator (if black) by their former peers. Some therefore consider their passing privilege to be a curse, echoing Jess Goldberg's lament from Stone Butch Blues:

"As far as the world's concerned, I was born the day I began to pass. I have no past, no loved ones, no memories, no me. No one really sees me or speaks to me or touches me."
The unwitting possession of privilege perpetuates the oppression caused by it. Those who are not part of the solution are not part of the problem - they are the problem itself. To own one's privilege is to take responsibility for the underlying social constructs that gave it to you in the first place. When informed consciousness is transformed into sociopolitical action, change results. But the failure of feminism and identity politics to make people aware of their privilege and to motivate them to act on it has left us with a racist, classist, sexist, homophobic and transphobic culture. The message may be correct, but its delivery simply fails to resonate with the privileged majority, who continue to be almost wholly ignorant of their privilege.

However, it's different with the transgendered passing privileged who live full-time. We know we are privileged - it becomes obvious to us when we begin to pass in our new genders. Yet that awareness has motivated only a few of us to own our privilege - and to fight transphobia as best we can. The traditional model of transition, surgery and assimilation is in effect a long struggle to obtain passing privilege, thus avoiding the stigma of transsexualism. Once obtained, most will forget they have passing privilege - while others of their own kind suffer mightily due to their lack of it. In a future essay, I will address how this failure to own our passing privilege not only perpetuates but also creates our oppression.

My aim has always been to live my life as a female, not as a transsexual.   I am sorry if reaching my goals and realizing my dreams bother some of you.

tinkerbell

Edit: Karen - to resize quoted text.

[Steph]

The late Gianna E. Israel, author of Transgender Care and counseler of over 3,000 transwomen told me that she would mark some of her client's files "FFS required." (I wasn't one of those BTW) As far as being pretty,a lot of post-FFS women aren't pretty. But there is a certain minimum  standard of feminine presentation that needs to be attained before a transwoman can expect to successfully and "happily" live as a woman. To deny this is, simply, to be in denial.

Really...  I find it remarkable that a respected transgender care coucelor would discuss patient files with anyone.  And it matters not that you weren't one of them Harper, because at Susan's we don't judge how a person looks, in fact we don't judge our members.  And who gives a monkies that folks aren't pretty.  And I'm going to denie that I'm actually reading this kind of post on this web site.  But then it would be interesting to know what these "minimum standards" are so that I may strive for the susscess and the happiness that I need to attain to live as a woman.

Geeeeeeeeeeez.

Hey hon pass me a bottle of wine it's going to be a long night 

Steph

[tinkerbell]

there is a certain minimum standard of feminine presentation

Very expensive and invasive mininum standard of feminine presentation.

tinkerbell

[Hazumu]

What if acceptance did not require passing?

What if it didn't matter that you were born male with a female gender tucked inside your brain?

What if you never had to worry that someone would clock you because you had a brow ridge resembling a neanderthal?

What if you would be accepted as the female gender even with a resonant baritone?

What if no one would ever burst out laughing, or stop and stare, or whisper, no matter what you looked like?

What if FFS were completely optional, because you just felt like it, not because you needed it to pass?

What if acceptance were complete, total, absolute from the moment you declared, "I don't care WHAT's stuck to my crotch!  I'm a woman!"?

What if total passing were not the only ticket for a normal-seeming life, free of harassment and those moments of sheer terror when you realize someone has found out the 'TRUTH" about you.?

Would you still hide in your new closet, and pretend to strangers that you were 'born' a natal female?

Or would you have the courage to say, when necessary, "This is how I really am. I was born with a female brain, but a male body."?

Would you then stand up and visibly pave the way for those who follow after you?

After all the hard work is done?...

Karen