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Rights?

Started by Robin., November 26, 2009, 11:27:20 PM

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Robin.

I am atheist but nontheless...

How can an atheist argue that a person has the "right" to something?
If there is no ultimate being or thing to define what is right and wrong, then how can someone say they have, for example, the right to free speech?
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tekla

That right is not given by god, but by the Constitution, and by no means is universal.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Robin.

Quote from: tekla on November 26, 2009, 11:29:06 PM
That right is not given by god, but by the Constitution, and by no means is universal.

But it was believers in God that put that right in the constitution thinking it was God given.
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tekla

The religious views of the Founders were all over the place.  They set up free speech not as a religious deal, but as a protection from the state.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Luna!

People in general tend to agree that they themselves, and perhaps others, should be treated according to certain standards. Unless someone's been raised to believe they're deserving of violence (unfortunately all too common in some places/groups), they would expect to be able to walk down the street without being hit in the face, for example.

Human rights legislation operates on the same principle. People agree that "we should treat people this way, so let's make a law that says it's a right". Then, hopefully, if this right is violated by someone, they will be punished according to the guidelines. No god/supreme being is really required.

I'm actually inclined to believe that the idea of God being the only 'true' moral force, and therefore having the greatest authority to punish you (and only when you die) is kind of an authorization to deny other humans' rights. God will take care of it all in the end. Apparently, if you're really evil, He may even take you out with a lightning bolt, or some such. What, then, is the point of being punished by earthly authority? One can use the obvious fact that you're still here as an implied approval of your actions; by God, no less.
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finewine

A "right" in this context is an "entitlement", not a differentiation between right and wrong.

Besides, the notion that one needs a god to define right and wrong is a flawed argument.

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lisagurl

Rights are man made cultural deals. Right and wrong are also man made rules for people to live in peace. They get these ideas by debating justice. What is just is always debatable.
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Robin.

Quote from: finewine on November 27, 2009, 05:34:14 AM
Besides, the notion that one needs a god to define right and wrong is a flawed argument.

I should not have used the word define. I would agree that anyone can define something as they choose. it would have been more appropriate to say that there can be no objective "rights and wrongs" without a God to make them that way, otherwise what is right and wrong is merely subjective.

If there is only subjective right and wrong then it is, for example, up to me to choose what is right and wrong to me. Thus if i should descide I wanted to kill you i might as well diside that this is the Right thing to do. Perhaps I might think that it is not the right thing to do because I would not benefit from it, but rather the wrong thing because I would come to harm. But then with no objective right and wrong, right and wrong becomes mostly subject to definition by condition or situation. It may have been wrong to kill you then, but I could latter find my self in the situation where I can kill you and no one will know and nothing bad will come of it, and while you have done nothing to me, killing you will benefit me by having your winning lottery ticket. Thus seeing that all that will come of it is the good to me of a million or so dollars the action was good.


....Dont worry i won't really kill you....   >:-)
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Hannah

Lionesses don't give a hoot about wildebeast rights, no matter how complex a  system wildebeasts might devise. They might herd up to protect each other from lionesses, but it's all just a safety construct and evolutionary survival mechanism that falls apart when the cat grabs the wildebeast next to you and everybody runs like hell. God has nothing to do with it. If it's even real it's prolly watching us with a glassed over expression if at all.
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lisagurl

QuoteI would agree that anyone can define something as they choose. it would have been more appropriate to say that there can be no objective "rights and wrongs" without a God to make them that way, otherwise what is right and wrong is merely subjective.

No, subjective implies only to an individual. If more than one person is affected than it becomes a social matter which requires debate. Values, facts, evidence, natural law etc. all apply.
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Janet_Girl

Rights are a man-made thing, not given by God.  Reasoning and humanity show that certain rights are for all.



Janet
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Julie Marie

Without authorities and specialists everyone would be a hundred ways wiser.
Without benevolence and righteousness people would rediscover caring, the familial bond.
Without power-schemes and profiteering there'd be no thugs and thieves.

These three ways to run things grasp at externals, don't work.
Be simple, true to yourself; let go selfishness and greed.
   
Tao Te Ching - 19th verse.

The Layman's Tao translation:

Give up holiness, and the people will benefit a hundred times.
Give up benevolence and relinquish righteousness, and the people will return to natural love.
Renounce profit-seeking, and thieves will disappear.

But these three things are as decorations, and inadequate by themselves.
Let people rely upon this:

Recognize simplicity and embrace plainness.
Let the ego recede and desires diminish.


I really wonder if we didn't have a system of justice and morality, would we need human rights?  Would people really do the right thing?

Julie
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Janet_Girl

If a true sense of community replaced the righteous indignation, I think people would be more app to see rights as equal for all.  And just not a religious sense of community, but a true sense.  As caring for your neighbor.



Janet
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Robin.

Quote from: lisagurl on November 27, 2009, 02:31:21 PM
No, subjective implies only to an individual. If more than one person is affected than it becomes a social matter which requires debate. Values, facts, evidence, natural law etc. all apply.

It may be a social matter as more than one person is involved, but that does not mean it is not subjective. It would just follow that our subjective views, definitions, or whatever, would require consideration of others, not for the sake of the others but for the sake of the self.
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lisagurl

Quotenot for the sake of the others but for the sake of the self

If you read philosophy you will see like John Rawls said you need to forget everything about yourself when it comes to ethics and morals. The decision has to only look at what is fair as if you did not have any knowledge of your own situation. That way you will not prejudice to your favor.
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Robin.

Quote from: lisagurl on November 27, 2009, 04:34:16 PM
If you read philosophy you will see like John Rawls said you need to forget everything about yourself when it comes to ethics and morals. The decision has to only look at what is fair as if you did not have any knowledge of your own situation. That way you will not prejudice to your favor.

That would be asuming that being prejudice to your own favor is a bad thing.
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lisagurl

QuoteThat would be asuming that being prejudice to your own favor is a bad thing.

Not exactly, what is fair is not good or bad, it is just.
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Robin.

Quote from: lisagurl on November 28, 2009, 10:02:18 AM
Not exactly, what is fair is not good or bad, it is just.

Well I could say that being fair reduces my own benefit and thus is bad too me. Regardless, your assuming it is better to do the "just" thing. Plus you are circumlocuting; to say "it is just" as an arguement is quite close to saying "it is right", both rights and justsice being the existence in question within this arguement.

Post Merge: November 28, 2009, 11:43:56 AM

Nonetheless, in our current social system being fair is generaly the most self-beneficial method of behavior. However, that neither makes it the right or just thing to do.
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Luna!

The thing is that it shouldn't make any difference whether rights or good/evil/justice are defined by some objective party or not. No one is going to intentionally help humanity, except possibly themselves. If something evolutionarily superior to humanity comes about, we will likely cease to exist and nature as a whole will not care. The only rule nature plays by is the one that says: 'the most workable thing in an environment gets to keep going in it'.
Therefore, rights are a human-built system whereby humans (otherwise SOL) are told to look out for each other, assuming it's not an inordinate amount of trouble to do so. It tends to be pretty balanced between benefit to society and benefit to the individual (unless misused/ignored); good things tend to come back to you, as you noted. It's not just about giving up freedom for society's benefit; do I really need the freedom to kill someone/etc? It protects me personally as well by taking away that freedom from nearly everyone else (only the military are 'allowed' to kill, but only other soldiers and that's because they all but say 'I don't mind if the other side kills me'. They're basically giving permission by being in the organization).
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lisagurl

QuoteNo one is going to intentionally help humanity, except possibly themselves

Perhaps character is out of fashion in the 21 century but life is more than ourselves. Many people live for humanity rather then themselves.  Marketing has promoted greed and selfishness. Religion also has promoted hate. Laws do not stop people from killing and they do not punish everyone who kills legal or not.
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